How would you improve the WTCC?

[Ardius]

After catching some of the WTCC first round this weekend, the series is really looking quite sad. The quality of the drivers, teams and most importantly the racing, has declined in such a drastic way compared to other motorsport series.

So, how would you go about improving it? There are several great Touring series out there, its crazy that the "World" championship is so lacking behind the likes of the BTCC and STCC.

Personally, I would make a much stronger drive for a far cheaper formula which is more comparable to the national series. The closer the cars and equipment are between series, the easier it is for teams to compete in either or both. It seems the FIA are oblivious to the cost problems involved with the S2000 class and the new 1.6 turbo engines.
This thread post pretty much states it all:
http://www.btcc.net/forum/showthread.php?9228-NGTC-regs-why-was-2.0-litre-turbo-chosen

So, I would try and organise a standard formula with BTCC and the rest of the national Touring Car series, so teams can easily use the same cars, suppliers, engines, etc etc. With only tyre suppliers being the real big difference. Screw trying to share an engine with WRC and F1..I don't see the massive benefit of that if its more expensive as Alan Gow suggests.

Its difficult to get around the cost of running in "World" events, as its inevitably more expensive having to fly all over the place rather than locally in one country. But I would adjust the calendar slightly to visit some better tracks for Touring Cars, Brno would be ditched and Valencia. Maybe even Monza too. They already ditched Marrakech thankfully. An American event is a must and an Australian event...why not a world event at Bathurst? Same for running Nurburgring Nordschleife? Laguna Seca?

I would ditch the weird reverse grid rules using qualifying positions and revert it back to reverse race results using the top 10.

 

[Clark]

I couldn't even bring myself to watch it.

I would have scrapped WTCC, and not have brought in the new 1.6 litre cars. With BTCC and other National Series now heading towards full NGTC fields I would do one of two things.

1) Run the WTCC but with the NGTC cars.

2) Merg with DTM and or make a new series with the new DTM cars, ITC anybody?

As it is, I can't see anything to help it. It seems like it's going to be harder to keep afloat than the old FIA GT was.

 

[Ardius]

But DTM is even worse, while it has money and drivers, its still "only" two (now three) manufacturers and the racing is completely dire. All the aerodynamic bits make it more a GT series than a Touring series.
I don't see current DTM as "Touring Cars".

 

[Clark]

I know, that's why I hope the new DTM rules are a halfway house between S2000 and GT cars, then I manufacturers from all over join. But then there's the whole manufactuer surge then crash situation.

 

[lbsf1]

But DTM is even worse, while it has money and drivers, its still "only" two (now three) manufacturers and the racing is completely dire. All the aerodynamic bits make it more a GT series than a Touring series.
I don't see current DTM as "Touring Cars".

Logically however a world formula should be faster than a national series, so therefore if DTM was used as a world series then I think that would be much better then just having another BTCC esque championship. Also if it was a world championship then many non German makes can join and it would grow.

 

[Ardius]

Why? Why does a world series have to be faster? All it has to be is a series that is open to all nations possible and visits as many countries as possible. It doesn't necessarily have to be faster.
I'd rather the action on the track and the health of the series come before trying to be faster than other series. I don't watch Touring Cars for ultimate speed.

DTM is too expensive to be competitive. Its rediculous that Mercedes have two different spec of car and they can be so much slower simply because of aerodynamic development. Becoming like DTM wouldn't be better, it would still only allow large operations to dominate that can spend money rather than the smaller independent teams being competitive. While this generally almost always happens, allowing the manufacturers to super-spend on their windtunnel work and only supply new cars to certain drivers is messed up.

I honestly don't understand why anyone even bothers watching DTM these days, you have drivers like Jamie Green stuck in older cars that they can't possibly win in meanwhile the racing is dull.

I also don't really want to see manufacturers so much as more teams. Allow more teams to run competitively without having to rely on manufacturers. The manufacturers are the ones who push the costs up as they bring in their huge budgets then close their race teams when they leave.

 

[KobayashiFan]

Logically however a world formula should be faster than a national series, so therefore if DTM was used as a world series then I think that would be much better then just having another BTCC esque championship. Also if it was a world championship then many non German makes can join and it would grow.

At the moment the DTM is currently in the process of unifying the mechanical regulations with the Japanese Super GT series. Although specifically, only the GT500. This process is expected to be completed by 2015. So in that respect, your idea makes sense. Since they are in the process of unifying regulations and more manafacturers may join as a result, why not use the DTM as a world series. It seems a good launch pad...

Only thing I'd be weary of is the DTM became an international series in 1995. Only lasted two seasons before it self destructed. The DTM as we know it now returned in 2000. So if the DTM became a world series again, it would have to be managed much better this time to prevent that from happening again.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Model it on V8 Supercars, and don't let Simon McNamara anywhere near it.

 

[Tired Tyres]

Why? Why does a world series have to be faster? All it has to be is a series that is open to all nations possible and visits as many countries as possible. It doesn't necessarily have to be faster.
I'd rather the action on the track and the health of the series come before trying to be faster than other series. I don't watch Touring Cars for ultimate speed.

DTM is too expensive to be competitive. Its rediculous that Mercedes have two different spec of car and they can be so much slower simply because of aerodynamic development. Becoming like DTM wouldn't be better, it would still only allow large operations to dominate that can spend money rather than the smaller independent teams being competitive. While this generally almost always happens, allowing the manufacturers to super-spend on their windtunnel work and only supply new cars to certain drivers is messed up.

I honestly don't understand why anyone even bothers watching DTM these days, you have drivers like Jamie Green stuck in older cars that they can't possibly win in meanwhile the racing is dull.

I also don't really want to see manufacturers so much as more teams. Allow more teams to run competitively without having to rely on manufacturers. The manufacturers are the ones who push the costs up as they bring in their huge budgets then close their race teams when they leave.

Norisring three years in a row says hi.

DTM is easily my favorite "touring car" race series. The last thing I find it is boring. I don't find it dull to watch. WTCC on the other hand, I don't understand how you can watch that at all. Different strokes, different folks I'd say.

Model it on V8 Supercars, and don't let Simon McNamara anywhere near it.

The best idea I've heard in ages.

 

[Ardius]

Norisring three years in a row says hi.

DTM is easily my favorite "touring car" race series. The last thing I find it is boring. I don't find it dull to watch. WTCC on the other hand, I don't understand how you can watch that at all. Different strokes, different folks I'd say.

WTCC is as dull if not more dull than DTM these days, hence this thread. I wasn't arguing otherwise.
I much prefer series like the STCC, proper touring cars, no rediculous wings and huge diffusers and more than 2 or 3 variants of cars being competitive. And most importantly, plenty of racing action.

Has DTM ever (in its current form) produced an event like 2009's BTCC finale?

While Jamie Green has been able to win races, he has no chance of winning or even challenging for the championship as long as he has 1 year-old machinery. Why don't Mercedes and Audi supply all of their teams with the new car?

 

[Tired Tyres]

WTCC is as dull if not more dull than DTM these days, hence this thread. I wasn't arguing otherwise.
I much prefer series like the STCC, proper touring cars, no rediculous wings and huge diffusers and more than 2 or 3 variants of cars being competitive. And most importantly, plenty of racing action.

Has DTM ever (in its current form) produced an event like 2009's BTCC finale?

No it hasn't but that is the BTCC, the weather and Brands Hatch for you. That sort of Touring Car series seems only to appeal at National level though.

While Jamie Green has been able to win races, he has no chance of winning or even challenging for the championship as long as he has 1 year-old machinery. Why don't Mercedes and Audi supply all of their teams with the new car?

I don't understand this either, but with BMW entering soon, there will be more first teams and less second teams. Hopefully.

 

[Ardius]

I disagree, there is clearly interest in other countries for BTCC-styled series, I don't see why a world series format of that would be so hard to pull off done right. I certainly don't think the WTCC should become some de facto GT series like DTM.

 

[Tired Tyres]

Yes there is. Any country with a motor industry would be interested in a National series. It doesn't work beyond that because it's just more of the same without any form of advancement.

 

[Ardius]

The same could be said for a DTM-styled series, so thats not a non-argument isn't it? At least there are equivelant series to BTCC in most countries. DTM's closest relation is SuperGT.

 

[Tired Tyres]

No it is not. National series costs national series money. International series see a much larger budget, manufacturer involvement and the politics that brings. What is the point of it if it does not have a distinct technical advancement over a national series?

 

[Ardius]

World coverage, higher recognition (as the idea that the best from each country participates) and a tougher challenge.
But as I just said, why is a DTM-based World series better in this respect? All of these issues apply to that too. The only difference is that I'm arguing you could greatly reduce the costs by having a standard spec more inline with local series or more adaptable to local series. You could still make the cars faster for the international series if you wanted, maybe using restrictors or something.

I don't see why there has to be technological development though, its about racing not technology. This isn't F1 or Le Mans. Manufacturers don't need to be heavily involved, only as far as sponsorship or engine supply goes.

 

[Tired Tyres]

World coverage, higher recognition (as the idea that the best from each country participates) and a tougher challenge.
But as I just said, why is a DTM-based World series better in this respect? All of these issues apply to that too. The only difference is that I'm arguing you could greatly reduce the costs by having a standard spec more inline with local series or more adaptable to local series. You could still make the cars faster for the international series if you wanted, maybe using restrictors or something.

I don't see why there has to be technological development though, its about racing not technology. This isn't F1 or Le Mans. Manufacturers don't need to be heavily involved, only as far as sponsorship or engine supply goes.

Is that the same as being a little bit pregnant?

Where do I say DTM is better as an international series? It's getting that way, but as an extension of what it already is, not as a separate series. That's like the BTCC becoming the ETCC by running races on the continent and then becoming the WTCC by running races on other continents. Governing bodies start getting involved, manufacturers get involved, budgets go through the roof and then the whole thing collapses. Again.

 

[Clark]

I think WTCC would work well if all the teams worked like M-Sport in the WRC.

 

[Ardius]

Where do I say DTM is better as an international series? It's getting that way, but as an extension of what it already is, not as a separate series. That's like the BTCC becoming the ETCC by running races on the continent and then becoming the WTCC by running races on other continents. Governing bodies start getting involved, manufacturers get involved, budgets go through the roof and then the whole thing collapses. Again.

Duffers mentioned building on DTM as an international series, I assumed we were still discussing that as a possibility.
I still think it could be done, at the very least I don't think the way WTCC has been run truly displays the best it can achieve.

 

[Tired Tyres]

Perhaps if all the national series all ran to the same rules, the winner of each series could go to a world series held during the off season here, which would be held in the southern hemisphere and be over 4-6 race tracks on consecutive weekends to find a world champion?

 

[TheCracker]

DTM is as dull as dish water. It's only national pride that's kept series like DTM and Super GT going. Races in both series are too long and too reliant on team tactics and the cars used have no relevance. In effect DTM is to Germany and Super GT is to Japan what NASCAR is to the US, hugely popular to those countries, but of little interest outside of those countries. You could ad Brazilian Stockcars to that list too.

Touring Cars, in their traditional sense, have much more relevance to the man or woman on the street because the cars used are much more similar to the cars they actually drive on the road. Yes, they're heavily modified from their road going counter-parts, but they're still based on a road car. All the other series use cars that only have a vague passing resemblance to cars you'll see on the road.

Touring Cars need to be affordable. You need to be able to attract privateer teams who can build their own cars and not just have to rely on running hand-me-down cars from huge manufacturer outfits which will never be competitive.

Any form of Touring Car racing is only going to have a shelf life of maybe 5 or 6 years before the regulations need turning on their heads and something a bit different is done, usually to keep costs from spiraling out of control and out of reach of the low budget teams that fill the grids. WTCC has obviously got to this point. International or Continental series have an even shorter life-span than national series. Whilst fans have a national series that provides great racing that they can actually afford to go and watch week in week out, they will only ever have a passing interest in a similar series that visits their country once a year and provides a lesser spectacle.

 

[Ardius]

Perhaps if all the national series all ran to the same rules, the winner of each series could go to a world series held during the off season here, which would be held in the southern hemisphere and be over 4-6 race tracks on consecutive weekends to find a world champion?

Make it available through online streams with a low subscription fee and hell yeah. 👍
GT1 and Indycars have already tried free online worldwide streams and they worked fantastic. They only thing they did wrong was to make it free, I would be happy to pay a small amount and watch all these series around the world. Its crazy most series still stick to only being run in highlights and bizarre times at night on subscription fee channels! While I understand that the ratings stop them being shown on a more frequent basis, I don't understand why they can't make a greater drive to produce their online streams. The costs would surely be outweighed by the much bigger growth in fanbase.

I'm gutted that I can't follow Indycars this year as they are stopping the online streaming. It was great to watch European series during the day and then log on to watch Indy at night, my Sundays were sorted. Surely there a lot of people in the same situation with WTCC? Eurosport is horribly unreliable and not available to everyone.

 

[Minardi]

I don't think the WTCC races of last weekend were dull ? May be because I am biased towards Tom Coronel, but he kept It interesting. But I can see where It is going, Chevrolet will win, not nice to know after race weekend #1. I don't understand why there have to be private teams and factory teams. I'd rather see an equal field. But Is It really more dull than F1 ? doubt that.

The game Superstars V8 directed me into that specific competition, and there I have seen how It can be done. I guess It is similar to BTCC. But, without additional digital channels, I am not able to follow It.
I have to watch Eurosport for WTCC, and some german public channel for DTM. I agree DTM races are too long, still I am trying to follow It. Because I have no ability to follow something else mainly, I am sure I'd like BTCC better.

I liked the A1GP series, the difference was in the set up, and the driver. But since there are many different touring car makes, differences will keep excisting. To come back to the OP;
Improve WTCC; I honestly don't know, add pit stops for tires ?
Improve DTM; make races shorter, and do a 2nd race WTCC style reversed grid.

Overall; keep cars performances equal.

 

[Tired Tyres]

Make it available through online streams with a low subscription fee and hell yeah. 👍
GT1 and Indycars have already tried free online worldwide streams and they worked fantastic. They only thing they did wrong was to make it free, I would be happy to pay a small amount and watch all these series around the world. Its crazy most series still stick to only being run in highlights and bizarre times at night on subscription fee channels! While I understand that the ratings stop them being shown on a more frequent basis, I don't understand why they can't make a greater drive to produce their online streams. The costs would surely be outweighed by the much bigger growth in fanbase.

I'm gutted that I can't follow Indycars this year as they are stopping the online streaming. It was great to watch European series during the day and then log on to watch Indy at night, my Sundays were sorted. Surely there a lot of people in the same situation with WTCC? Eurosport is horribly unreliable and not available to everyone.

GT1, GT3 and Indycars streamed for free last season. I've not heard anything different for this season about Indycars. Have you?

I'd say that brings a larger audience, free usually does, that makes the series more valuable to each team sponsor and opens the door to a series sponsor as well. Perhaps that can finance the sport?

Edit. In regards to DTM and Super GT. Why are people complaining about them being too long. I like them because they are long. If anyone finds the racing dull, no problem, just don't watch. Problem solved.

 

[Ardius]

Yeah, apparently the races that are shown on Versus will not be streamed online "to improve TV ratings". As you may notice, that comprises of most of the calendar...

I think most people wouldn't mind paying a small subscription fee if it meant they could watch these series. It would be great if they created a site where we could subscribe to watch all these streams and videos in one place. Especially as the "internet TV" is the next big thing.

 

[Tired Tyres]

Yeah, apparently the races that are shown on Versus will not be streamed online "to improve TV ratings". As you may notice, that comprises of most of the calendar...

I think most people wouldn't mind paying a small subscription fee if it meant they could watch these series. It would be great if they created a site where we could subscribe to watch all these streams and videos in one place. Especially as the "internet TV" is the next big thing.

But we don't get Versus over here in Europe... Oh.

They could have done it like ALMS and restricted access to international users only I suppose, but there you go.

I like the idea of a dedicated stream site for a monthly fee that shows absolutely every motor race live. I'd sign up for that in a flash.

 

[TheCracker]

Edit. In regards to DTM and Super GT. Why are people complaining about them being too long. I like them because they are long. If anyone finds the racing dull, no problem, just don't watch. Problem solved.

I get plenty of long and dull following F1. I watch Touring Cars for close racing and overtaking, overtaking that doesn't take place in the pits.

 

[Tired Tyres]

I get plenty of long and dull following F1. I watch Touring Cars for close racing and overtaking, overtaking that doesn't take place in the pits.

I regard both DTM and Super GT as GT classes not Touring cars.

Close racing and overtaking in Touring cars would need a no aero rule set, like BTCC before Alfa Romeo entered with the 155 with a wing on the back end.

 

[Ardius]

I think aero is fine in small amounts such as have now, just as long as it doesn't get to DTM and SuperGT levels with huge diffusers, etc. Just as long as the racing is still close and the cars don't rely on the aerodynamics for grip. Small bodywork damage shouldn't stop a driver from winning as it might do in GT or Open wheel categories.

 

[TheCracker]

Close racing and overtaking in Touring cars would need a no aero rule set, like BTCC before Alfa Romeo entered with the 155 with a wing on the back end.

I think aero is fine in small amounts such as have now, just as long as it doesn't get to DTM and SuperGT levels with huge diffusers, etc. Just as long as the racing is still close and the cars don't rely on the aerodynamics for grip. Small bodywork damage shouldn't stop a driver from winning as it might do in GT or Open wheel categories.

I'd be very surprised if the amount of aero on a Super 2000 car affected following cars in any negative way at all.