Human race- good or bad?

[rjensen11]

I'm tending to agree with The Matrix here, we go wherever we can for the soul reason that we can't stay in 1 place too long because we overpopulate and use up all the possible resources, and we also destroy the Ozone layer, thus going to destoy Earth. So my opinion is that we are the cancer of life in general.

Am I POed at everyone? No, just at our history and our habits as a species.

My view of a Utopia is an island we havn't discovered, where we never will discover and never affect anything on that island.

What do you think of the Human Race?

 

[DGB454]

To quote something someone once said to me

Originally posted by rjensen11
rjensen11, do everyone, and I mean EVERYONE a favor and SHUT UP!

 

[Pako]

Dang,

That's pretty harsh DGB454...


On the surface level I would have to agree with rjensen11. It is all to often that we will hear about all the bad that the human race has done. Our media is a prime example of this. However, most of this cancer is attributed to individuals, not a race in general. I find it hard to classify an entire race on individual actions. :-)

One thing that does set up apart from the rest of the mamals is free will. And with that free will comes a great responsibility to do the right thing. Unfortunately, a lot of the choices that are made that affect the environment are driven by some main motivations which are:

Greed
Power/Dominance
Convienience

Until we, as a race, can put others ahead of ourselves, I'm afraid that we will continue to head the direction that we are going.

 

[GilesGuthrie]

I think we're both cancer and cure.

rjensen11 lists a lot of things that are bad with humanity, but look at all the things we've achieved. Humans can also create items of beauty, items which inspire awe through their elegance, through their sheer size, or through a parsimony that denotes real intelligence.

There's quite a lot of us. We're not all good, and we're not all bad. But if we all try to be as good as we can be at least most of the time, then I think we're on the positive side.

GTP is like a microcosm of this at times. You get lots of threads consisting of flame wars, and "Shut Up" and "You Suck" posts. But then we also get a lot of threads which really cause the community to rally. It's heartwarming at times and frustrating at times, but that's what life, and humans, are about.

In my opinion, anyway.

 

[DGB454]

Originally posted by Pako
Dang,

That's pretty harsh DGB454...


On the surface level I would have to agree with rjensen11. It is all to often that we will hear about all the bad that the human race has done. Our media is a prime example of this. However, most of this cancer is attributed to individuals, not a race in general. I find it hard to classify an entire race on individual actions. :-)

One thing that does set up apart from the rest of the mamals is free will. And with that free will comes a great responsibility to do the right thing. Unfortunately, a lot of the choices that are made that affect the environment are driven by some main motivations which are:

Greed
Power/Dominance
Convienience

Until we, as a race, can put others ahead of ourselves, I'm afraid that we will continue to head the direction that we are going.

Sorry Pako. Just re quoting him on a thread to me. I just replaced my name with his.

 

[DGB454]

see?

 

[Pako]

Yes, I just saw that in the other thread... None the less, still pretty harsh.

 

[DGB454]

Ok I will quit messing around. Just had to get a punch in after that sucker punch.

 

[duo17]

One of my teachers once said that humans naturally think of themselves before others. He also said that the reason that we are the dominent species today is our selfishness combined with our intelligence. We do everything in our power to make things easy for ourselves and in the process, we forget about other species and humans for that matter.

Pako said:

It is all to often that we will hear about all the bad that the human race has done. Our media is a prime example of this. However, most of this cancer is attributed to individuals, not a race in general. I find it hard to classify an entire race on individual actions. :-)

This is another example of what I was talking about. No offense to you or Giles, but you guys immediatly took the question as "Are humans a cancer" to eachother, as I did, but then I realized that his question pertained to the Earth and our habitats (I probably just made a fool of myself...).

My opinion is that humans are not a cancer to themselves, but to other animals and the environment, we are nothing but a cancer. No matter how much anyone tries, our efforts to save the Earth will be in vain. That doesn't mean that we still can't prolong the life of our natural resources and the environment, but either way, we're screwed. When the Earth has been destroyed, I beleive that we will just move on to the next planet and do the same.

I don't hate people for it, or our past and ancestory because it was their natural instinct to help themselves first, and then others (in this case "others" would be other species and the environment). In fact the only reason most of us are able to live decent and good lives is beacause of what others did to advance the human race. But if I was a monkey or any other able animal, I would give every human I saw the middle finger, for ruining it for everyone but them.

OA

 

[Gil]

The human race is a very Yin/Yang issue.
We can be good. Look at all the stuff Jimmy Carter has done since he left office. Look at the Peace Corps, Look at Preachers, Teachers, and Doctors and Nurses.

We can also be a Plague. Look at Charles Manson, Adolf Hitler, The Clan, Al-Quaeda, and Sadaam Hussien.

Remember somebody once said, "All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing".

If we turn a blind eye to injustice, intolerance, and terrorism, we allow evil to triumph.

If on the other hand, we look after the weak, feed the hungry, clothe and house the poor, and "teach them to fish instead of giving them fish" Then we are fostering the good in people.

If you want to see an interesting phenomenon in action. Next time you are in traffic. Let somebody pull out into the road. Follow them for a while and you'll see them let somebody out and so on and so on.
If you "start a chain" of good it will continue to grow.
If you start a chain of bad/evil it will grow also.
Take a minute here and say to yourself, "I am the FIRST link of the chain. I will start a chain of good today."

 

[Concept]

I think for such a "smart" race we should at least treat our environment better. I wish those styrophome (Spelling?) companies would stop production of there products and find another way to make the things they make. That stuff is not biodegradable. Where are we going to keep putting it?

 

[DGB454]

Concept. Have you ever seen the city dump in N.Y.? It's the only man made object you can see from space. Tourist flock to it by the thousands every year. Is that crazy or what? I do agree with you. Where are we going to put it all?

 

[Concept]

I thought you could see The Great Wall of China from the space station...

Oh well, it's suprising though. We can't just bury it all. I say we use space shuttles up with tons of trash and then they can just dump it. I don't know why the wouln't. It's endless. It would never pile up. Nobody would mind, nobody lives up there...I think.

 

[Sage]

As a striving Individualist and Objectivist, I'm interested to see these points about how "selfish" we are, and how we must "put others in front of us"... what is wrong with the word "I" or "want"?

However, I don't think I could go into a full lenth discussion on that matter... just look at how long it took Ayn Rand to write about it.

For the sake of conversation though, I will point out that ture, pure selfishness is the greatest trait that man has... there is a different "selfishness" that certainly is bad and is in fact not selfishness at all, but it is the type that most of you refer to.

I'm going to have to expand more later... I need to finish today's GTP browsing.

 

[Max Powers]

Nobody would mind, nobody lives up there...I think.


Heh, the chances that someone else lives somewhere out there are pretty high. The universe is a pretty big place. Earth can't be the only planet housing intelligent life. The chances that we'll ever contact them in our lifetime is almost none.

 

[Sage]

Originally posted by SublimeDood10
Heh, the chances that someone else lives somewhere out there are pretty high. The universe is a pretty big place. Earth can't be the only planet housing intelligent life. The chances that we'll ever contact them in our lifetime is almost none.

Did I miss something? Why are we talking about life on other planets now?

 

[Max Powers]

I just went off about the end of Concept's post.

 

[duo17]

Originally posted by Concept
I thought you could see The Great Wall of China from the space station...

I know for a fact that the Great Wall of China cannot be seen from the moon or high Earth orbit (upper exosphere) with the naked eye.

OA

 

[bigwhlkid]

it is only recently that the media has brought this to our attention of what we are doing to the environment and the animals that live here. fact is this has been going on for the past couple centuries, and in most ways we have gotten better at being more environmentaly friendly.

the media is using this as a way to obtain viewers

like the environmentalists who are complaining about land being developed in one way or another and the animals who mite be affected by this developement, i just have to ask "so what do you think happened when the land for your home was being developed".

 

[bigwhlkid]

ohh and one more thing, in a way each species is a cancer to another and itself.

 

[Pupik]

Originally posted by GilesGuthrie
There's quite a lot of us. We're not all good, and we're not all bad. But if we all try to be as good as we can be at least most of the time, then I think we're on the positive side.

I think humans are naturally good. If we had no faith in that, then we'd have killed each other off long ago.

Life is difficult enough, supporting ourselves, keeping healthy, clothing, feeding, shelter, finding positive things to motivate us, and finding new and better ways to make life bearable.

Every so often, crap happens, and you have to deal with it. The whole "Mean People Suck" attitude is brought about by people who can't seem to grasp the basic fact that good and bad merely exist, and it's someone else who gets to make that judgement. Deal with it.

Remember: that soldier shooting at another is firing back because he thinks he's right, too.

"Love thine enemies, for they are the instruments of your destiny."

 

[milefile]

This is a long post, but as an answer to the question, it is, in fact, a short answer.

Human beings are animals competing for the same space and energy that all the other life forms on earth are competing for. If the Giant Panda goes extinct it will be our fault. If the globe warms to the point where life is severely altered it will be our fault. Blame the humans.

There is a problem in that: unlike any other species, we hold the success of our own under great suspicion. We are successful at the expense of other species. This should not be a surprise. This is the case for every species, ever. However, we are the most successful species, ever. And yet we take this gift and responsibility and contemplate whether is could be a "cancer." Life finds it's own way; we live within it and are utterly subject to it. We do not control it even if it may seem that way in the minute pieces of time we can perceive. We would not be where we are now if Life had not allowed it for some reason we do not know, but maybe can feel in certain ecstatic moments.

People try to identify one thing that sets our species apart from other animals. If there is one thing it is so amorphous that it isn't immediately perceptible. Different people, depending on various things, will latch on to one expression of this difference, based on what justifies their interpretation of things. This is good, even though it makes us different not only from other animals, but from each other. For my part, language is the furthest I have been able to reduce it. Humans have language. Some people say it's free will. Others say technology. I think language precedes both. Some people will argue that not only humans have language because apes can learn sign, whales communicate with sound, and we know what our dogs mean. I accept that there is something very special about these animals and they are close to us, but they do not have language. They do not write poetry or do philology; they do not have music or history. These things are solely human and define us. Because we have language we can have history and because we have history we can know that things were different in the past and will be different in the future; we understand time because of language. This can't be said for the great apes, whales, or even that really smart African Grey Parrot named Alex. The capacity for apparently comprehending abstractions does not make them human. If it did they would be studying us, making stretches to prove how much we are like them. I think the fact that we are different is what makes our relationship with other kinds of life so beautiful.

And that is significant. We want to make everything resemble us. Whales are worth saving because they are like us. Dogs live in our homes for the same reasons. We study apes and want to protect them because they are like us. This doesn't help anyone, though, because it doesn't enhance our understanding of Life in the more general, larger sense, the greater structure we are only a part of, even if the dominant part, for now.

If humans are a cancer, which we may very well be, it could be said that the very character of Life itself will become cancerous. Stranger things have happened.

Today the most obvious difference (but not necessarily the most important) between us and the rest of Life is technology... not just the internet and cell phones, but bridges, electricity, cars, machined tools, clothes, etc. We have closed the technological loop. We use technology to make more technology. We use technology to do science. We made it. Now we need it. We made it, now we act like we have never been without it. Our average, everyday perception of the world is one that assumes technology as a given.

This is why we see ourselves as somehow separate from the rest of Life, as possibly dangerous to the planet, as if we were placed here by some outside force and are guests on Earth, but this is not the case. We grew from Life like everything else did. We became an exceptional kind of life over time, and have done the most amazing things, both atrocious and beautiful; we are special. We are closer to blue-green algae than we are to our PS2's. I believe to feel that, at some point or another, is the experience that is key to humanity becoming more beautiful, more alive... and less cancerous.

I'm not sure anyone could do anything that is damaging to life or the species, even if they tried, even if small things make it seem so. Our opinion of what happens, our little suffering and worry is a spec of dust in the story of Life. Life existed long before humans and will exist long after us, if we ever are gone from the universe. This is my comfort, my "belief," as it were.

I'm totally aware that many others' beliefs are tossed aside by what I just wrote, and various things are presupposed. This is the case with everything. I have no intention arguing back and forth on particulars. Nobody here will change my mind, as I will never change yours, or even try. And in most differences between intelligent people, the real discrepancies lie in the vocabulary words; the structure is the same, whatever you've named it's parts.

 

[Duke]

Originally posted by rjensen11
My view of a Utopia is an island we havn't discovered, where we never will discover and never affect anything on that island.

What a sad, sad way to think of a species that has created so much beauty and has taught ourselves so much.

I'm not ignoring milefile's excellent post, because I agree with most of it and I don't want to disturb it. I'm just going to lay this alongside it.

I refuse to accept the concept of Original Sin, and I refuse to feel guilt for having been born of a species that has the best survival tool than evolution can provide - our rational minds. Think of the evolutionary price we have paid for our brains: we're physically weaponless, we have no fur or thick skin to protect us, the size of our brain causes our babies to be born helpless and to remain nearly so for many years, and we can't run very fast or see, hear, or smell as well as the average dog. Yet we've thrived and used those brains to overcome our obstacles to become the dominant life form on the planet.

Why is that something of which we should be ashamed?

I will stipulate that humans have done bad things. We have. But we learn from those mistakes and we dilligently try not to make them again. For instance, throughout ancient history, bloody wars were fought with brutal weapons. Force was seen as right in nearly all cases. Groups continually battled for territory and resources, and being invaded meant literal rape, pillage, slavery and death for the locals. War does continue but the risk to the civillian population has decreased dramatically on a global scale. In 1865 several hundred thousand soldiers died at Antietam. In 1917 a million men were killed in three days at the Somme. Yet the Viet Nam war was fought with a little over 200,000 casualties and last year, 100 deaths in Afghanistan were enough to make the national news. We have not solved the problem but we are learning to.

The same is true for the environment. 300 years ago, most of North America was one vast forest. It was not conceived that mankind could ever have an effect on that; even 200 years ago the concept of 'extinction' didn't exist. Within the last 100 years we have learned from those mistakes and we are trying to solve them now. Within the last 30 years we have more than doubled the fuel economy of cars while cutting their emissions to less than a tenth of their older levels. Can we make everything perfect? No. But we learn not to make it worse and we learn how to reduce our impact every day.

Humans will never not have an impact on the Earth. Why should we expect them to? Locusts and starlings and mosquitos and sharks and deer and elephants and beavers have an 'adverse' effect on the environment, yet no one begrudges them. Why are we any less part of nature than they are? What meaning does the Earth have if not as a setting for human beings?

It's been said, and I agree: "you cannot go against nature, because if you do, that's part of nature too." There are both beauty and ugliness in the works of man. Everyone agrees that nature is beautiful, yet there is ugliness there as well.

People are capable of evil, true. That does note make them evil. Read Gil's post about that. People kill each other, but consider this: when a new male lion becomes dominant in the pack, the first thing he does is go around and kill all the current cubs, because they were sired by the previous alpha male. The new lion instinctively destroys them and sets about creating new litters that contain his genes instead. Is this not evil, just because it is a lion and not a human?

I agree that humankind should avoid wanton destruction of the environment, and we should take great care to be sure that our gains are worth what we lose, and that we use resources as efficiently as possible. But our world is here to be used - or else, what purpose does it serve? I deny the assumption that mankind is unworthy to dominate the planet.

This didn't exactly go where I expected it to, but it's not an easy subject to explain. There seem to be some inherent assumptions made that I think are not the Truths that people believe them to be. I'm interested to hear what further words on the concept of 'selfishness' that youth_cycler has to offer.

 

[Sage]

Great job you two! 👍

Now, to, expand on the real meaning of selfishness.... (sorry in advance, as this'll be quite off subject from the original intention of the thread, but I just felt obligated to make this point):

Without going into specifics, the main core of what most people target as "selfish" is the word "want"... for some reason, "want" has turned into a sinful word. Humans just can't want things... we have to give things. Why? Why can't we have wants? People say it's wrong to want money. Why? If I didn't want money, I'd throw it right back in someone's face the second they gave it to me! What's wrong with wanting things? Aren't the greatest inventions my mankind... the wheel, electricity, computers, didn't all of them come from the premise that someone wanted it, wanted to make it alive, wanted to make it a reality?

These days, some people "have" to give to charity to feel good. Why? You earned that money, so it's yours. Yes, if someone genuinly (sp?) wants to give to charity, then that's just fine. But why must all the rich people give to charity? Is that their obligation now, now that they're rich?

Man cannot function correctly in a selfless environment. If I were truly selfless, then what I want is based on what other people want me to want, and what their neighbors want them to want, and what their neighbors want them to want, and so on, into one big never-ending circle of people basing their wants on other people's wants. And, you know what? We'd never get a thing done in this world if that's how it was... if everyone were selfless.

Engineers build because they want to build, to erect with their own thoughts something that no animal could do but the human, not because their neighbor wants them to. Designers design because they want to improve on a design and see the beautiful things that the human hand can create, not because it's the thing that his neighbor wants. Inventors invent things because they want to see what their mind can accomplish, what wonderful new things they can make, not because the rest of the world demands it. All of these people are selfish, because they, personally, want to do something, want to make something, want to foster their mind into creating glorious things.

And, what is wrong with all of this? Humans depend on our wants, because that's what has created a tolerable living envirnoment for us, since, as neon_duke has already attested, we don't really have any decent "natural" defenses. Our wants have driven the world forward, and it is also our wants that'll help keep us from "destroying" the world (cleaner engines didn't just come out of nowhere, you know).

 

[milefile]

Originally posted by youth_cycler
(sorry in advance, as this'll be quite off subject from the original intention of the thread, but I just felt obligated to make this point):

I think it's right on topic. 👍

 

[duo17]

The last few posts really made me take a second look at my opinion on this topic.

OA

 

[Sage]

There's one other thing I want to point out:

In biology, there's something known as a Carrying Capacity (you'll probably be learning about this later in the year, Omar ). The Carrying Capacity is the number of individuals that can survive in a species indefinitely under the current circumstances (obviously, it changes slightly with weather, new species coming in, etc., but for the most part, it's usually about the same). When a species is growing exponentially in huge leaps and bounds, such as humans, the species will usually shoot right past their Carrying Capacity, then experience massive deaths until the species levels off back to the Carrying Capacity, at which point their species number stays about the same. I think that humans are no exception-- we're growing exponentially, and, eventually, we'll go so far beyond our Carrying Capacity that there's a time of few resources, at which point we'll level of and grow at a more placid pace. The current environmental things that we are doing are only serving to keep that "crashing point" at bay... we'll eventually reach it, but maybe a little bit later.

So, with that in mind, what is there to gain from being, well, selfless? Absolutely nothing. In fact, if we're all selfless, once we reach that crashing point, we might not have the technology or the skills (or the initiative!) to dig out of our hole! On the other hand, if we're selfish, if you keep striving for what you want, if I keep striving for what I want, then we'll keep moving forward as a whole, which is what has led to our huge success, and such great lives for each and every one of us. If we all turn selfless, if we all put others in front of us, then what on earth will we get done?!? Oh sure, some people who were hungry won't be so much anymore, but what about the people who are propelling us into the future? They should not be obligated to put others in front of them, for the sake of themselves and mankind. Selfishness and reasoning and free thinking has been the motor of our world, and it should continue to be so.

 

[rjensen11]

Originally posted by bigwhlkid
it is only recently that the media has brought this to our attention of what we are doing to the environment and the animals that live here. fact is this has been going on for the past couple centuries, and in most ways we have gotten better at being more environmentaly friendly.

the media is using this as a way to obtain viewers ...

Theodore Roosevelt was one of the first people to actually try something. He tried to preserve stuff and set up limits, didn't he also create the endangered species list? Anyway, that was the first link for trying to slow down what we've done. I think that (historic)Europe is mostly responcible for the destruction of everything. I mean, most of Asia, Africa, and the Americas weren't destructive until we came from Europe and introduced our "better ways," but I think any other area would've eventually become destructive. I'm not an environmentalist, I'm not one of those people who dreams about everyone driving electic cars, hell, I want that new Cadillac V16 engine!

 

[rjensen11]

Originally posted by youth_cycler
There's one other thing I want to point out:

....When a species is growing exponentially in huge leaps and bounds, such as humans, the species will usually shoot right past their Carrying Capacity, then experience massive deaths until the species levels off back to the Carrying Capacity, at which point their species number stays about the same. I think that humans are no exception-- we're growing exponentially, and, eventually, we'll go so far beyond our Carrying Capacity that there's a time of few resources, at which point we'll level of and grow at a more placid pace....

Havn't we already done that at least once? Remember the Black Plague? It happened because we were too urbanized, then luckily the brown rats drove the black rats carrying the fleas that carried the virus out. Our only problem is that, with all of the mass transit and being able to go around the globe in less than a day, once the next thing comes around to de-populate us, it'll be a global effect, not just Europe and Russia(Black Plague) or in North America(when Europeans brought over all the diseases from Europe that we were immune to, but the natives died because they weren't immune.)

 

[Sage]

Originally posted by rjensen11
Havn't we already done that at least once? Remember the Black Plague? It happened because we were too urbanized, then luckily the brown rats drove the black rats carrying the fleas that carried the virus out.

No. The Black Plague wasn't a true Limiting Factor... yes, it did kill off a lot of the human population, and yes, it was in part due to overcrowding. However, the Carrying Capacity is identified by how many resources are available for the given population-- Disease is considered an outside force. There's a particular name in biology for that, but it's escaped me at the moment.

Also, one should note that the Black Plague happened much, much, much time before the human population started growing exponentially... it occured between 1347 and 1351, I believe, and we have only been growing exponentially since the Industrial Revolution, which started somewhere between 1830 and 1850, I think? Anyway, the period from the Industrial Revolution up until now has represented human's exponential growth... from 1 billion back then to the 6 billion that we have now.