Hybriding/save hacking arrives in GT6 - Public discussion

[Rod Carvalho]

I took mine online, and specifically looked for rooms intended to show off or experiment with hybrids. It was a fun time, similar to when the game was first released. It literally was like a rebirth of sorts.

What's needed is a filter, nothing more - a simple database query can determine if a given car is achieved through "vanilla" means or not (although that database might be large because of all the permutations, and there will be a lot of queries to transfer if it's to be held remotely somewhere to prevent abuse).

Visible car specs, as above, implemented optionally again, are probably a good idea in general.

It would not only help to control the use of modded cars online but also help championship admins to run their multi-classes races!

 

[Johnnypenso]

Maybe if PD could detect that you have a hacked save file, then only let you online in those lobbies sure.

A simple solution to car modding hack is give the people the power to see other drivers car's specs on online rooms.

It would not only help to control the use of modded cars online but also help championship admins to run their multi-classes races!

What's needed is a filter, nothing more - a simple database query can determine if a given car is achieved through "vanilla" means or not (although that database might be large because of all the permutations, and there will be a lot of queries to transfer if it's to be held remotely somewhere to prevent abuse).

Visible car specs, as above, implemented optionally again, are probably a good idea in general.

Now we're talkin' 👍 There are very simple ways PD can control this and give us the option to do the same in our own lobbies.

 

[jimipitbull]

I just can't understand why all you guys are taking this 'destroy all hackers attitude', you do know this is a GAME...

Let people play how they want, yes there is the very small majority who cheat, if you play with people you know who won't cheat.
eg. Setup a racing series on here and reserve spots for each race, you'll find that cheaters will not bother you then.

Don't put drifters and people that just go to cruise lobbies into the same 'cheater' group as the guys who do it to win races.

We do it to make the game more enjoyable by making copies of our own cars, by saying we're cheating would be like saying any real life drift car with an engine swap is 'cheating'.

Yes, it is a game. PD set the rules for the game - terms and conditions of use. Sony also has a set of terms and conditions. You have to press X to agree to the terms, then you can play.

Breaking those rules, by definition, is cheating.

 

[Tornado]

The way you hackers try to justify yourselves is almost reprehensible.

You could have saved some time and just wrote this in your very first post in this thread. This righteous indignation explains basically everything about your stance thus far, including your propensity to respond to every questioning of your statements by flipping out rather than answering the questions leveled.


And yeah, I know. Blah blah twisting words and so forth.

 

[JDM_Tuning_S3OZ]

Yes, it is a game. PD set the rules for the game - terms and conditions of use. Sony also has a set of terms and conditions. You have to press X to agree to the terms, then you can play.

Breaking those rules, by definition, is cheating.

cheat
tʃiːt/
verb
gerund or present participle: cheating
1.
act dishonestly or unfairly in order to gain an advantage.

I'm a drifter,
Care to explain who I am cheating against ?

 

[Vagabond]

Breaking those rules, by definition, is cheating.

It isn't, its breach of license agreement. Cheating is using unfair means to gain advantage. If this 'conversation' is to continue, I recommend putting the cheating banner away unless its specifically relating to the people who ruin the TTs with their hacked cars. Agreed?

 

[p3bucky]

I'm a drifter,
Care to explain who I am cheating against ?

Exactly. I drifted and cruised with mine and fail to see how I am a "cheater".

 

[JDM_Tuning_S3OZ]

Exactly. I drifted and cruised with mine and fail to see how I am a "cheater".

It isn't, its breach of license agreement. Cheating is using unfair means to gain advantage. If this 'conversation' is to continue, I recommend putting the cheating banner away unless its specifically relating to the people who ruin the TTs with their hacked cars. Agreed?

Thank you

 

[jimipitbull]

cheat
tʃiːt/
verb
gerund or present participle: cheating
1.
act dishonestly or unfairly in order to gain an advantage.

I'm a drifter,
Care to explain who I am cheating against ?

The rules aka terms and conditions you agreed to by clicking X

I thought drifting was scored on skill, not car/engine type? I've seen a relatively stock 6 cylinder HQ ute hold it's own against all sorts of drift weapons. Do you think that was the 186 red motor, or the guy behind the wheel?

 

[subsist]

You could have saved some time and just wrote this in your very first post in this thread. This righteous indignation explains basically everything about your stance thus far, including your propensity to respond to every questioning of your statements by flipping out rather than answering the questions leveled.


And yeah, I know. Blah blah twisting words and so forth.

Flipping out, what are you even talking about, really, this is your way of backing up an argument, by nitpicking?

You have already proven you are hopeless at actually carrying a discussion based on what has been said, you basically paraphrase every quote from someone, pick and choose quotes from whole paragraphs and then present them in such a way to try and justify your own view.

And you say I am the one that flips out? Time to go and have a good long hard look in the mirror, because now I'm almost certain you are just reflecting back and forth on yourself.

It isn't, its breach of license agreement. Cheating is using unfair means to gain advantage. If this 'conversation' is to continue, I recommend putting the cheating banner away unless its specifically relating to the people who ruin the TTs with their hacked cars. Agreed?

This is just getting into semantics now, actively going online with a hacked car and not telling the lobby and trying to deceive is cheating, no matter what semantics people try and spin on it.

 

[JDM_Tuning_S3OZ]

The rules.

I thought drifting was scored on skill, not car/engine type? I've seen a relatively stock 6 cylinder HQ ute hold it's own against all sorts of drift weapons. Do you think that was the 186 red motor, or the guy behind the wheel?

So now you're saying engine swaps are wrong....
Drifting is scored on line, angle, proximity and overall impression.

You should take note of what @Vagabond said above

 

[jimipitbull]

It isn't, its breach of license agreement. Cheating is using unfair means to gain advantage. If this 'conversation' is to continue, I recommend putting the cheating banner away unless its specifically relating to the people who ruin the TTs with their hacked cars. Agreed?

I accept the terms of this agreement. X

So now you're saying engine swaps are wrong....
Drifting is scored on line, angle, proximity and overall impression.

No. I'm saying engine swaps are irrelevant to how drifting is judged/scored.

 

[subsist]

Why would I go and buy a terrible console to buy a terrible game just to have engine and drivetrain swaps?
You clearly have no logic.

RWD swapped Honda's ?
S2000 is already RWD
A Viper is RWD why would I make it AWD?
And if a F50 GT is that fugly looking Ford ute well, nuff said...

Your reply has got to be one of the most stupidest things I've ever read on GTP.

So it is clearly OK to hack and ruin others fun? Not sure where your "clear logic" comes from either.

Seems like a very entitled attitude to me. I want it, so I am going to get it no matter who I trample over along the way.

The logic you seem to be giving is : I don't want to pay for another system and game that allows me to do the things I want, I want this game to do it, so I am going to break it and do what I want, I don't care who gets in the way.
Great logic that is.....

 

[Devil240Z]

I'm surprised this is such a big deal, I never noticed this stuff going on in GT5.

 

[p3bucky]

The stuff you can do with hybrids in GT5 made drifting even more real. Most drift cars have some kind of modification we could do by modding our cars (engine swap, aspiration conversion, and almost all that I've seen have wheel offsets, which we got by chassis swaps). So in this sense yes, they were relevant to drifting and in fact pretty realistic.

 

[Exorcet]

The way you hackers try to justify yourselves is almost reprehensible.

I'd need to be a magician to mod anything. I don't have a GT6 to do anything with.

You use words like "it seems" PP can't be hacked, or it "seems" only save files can be changed, when in reality you have no idea how deep hackers can go into the code, how much they can change with hex editing if they find out a way.

Well in that case, anything is possible and we're all doomed so there is no point in even trying to stop it.

I used a hypothetical in that situation to explain a certain point, and you go and try and twist a "hypothetical" to suit your own argument. The very reason for a hypothetical situation is too not twist it, that is why it is "hypothetical". You concentrate on the task at hand in the question, not look for excuses and other hypotheticals to try and justify it.

I didn't twist anything. I showed that modding wasn't even an issue. Cheating is the only issue.

Rereading your example, the mod car player didn't even do anything wrong. That person just found a room where the car was eligible. I personally think as a manner of etiquette, a modded car should be announced in a public room and granted permission by the host, but taking a PP abiding modified car into a room is a non issue. It's even less of an issue when the people in the room aren't even doing competitive racing as in your example (if it was competitive they'd probably inquire about the modded car's PP, etc). Nothing unfair happened. A player brought a car to a race where the car was allowed. I don't see how the race was ruined as you said. The only person with a "sour taste in their mouth forever" from that event would be people who need anger management.

Consider if there was no modding involved. The slow car was simply made fast due to a glitch. The driver doesn't realize it's a glitch, and the other players don't know about the glitch. The other players lose the race after selecting slow cars, is there anything for them to be mad about? No. The same is true in your example since no one is trying to get an unfair advantage.

Or going back to the point I was originally pointing at with my response, let's say that the guy with the mod car was trying to cheat. Would it be any better if instead this player didn't mod anything, but just entered the room to crash into other people? The driver would ram everyone. That would be a real problem, but still not much to do but get over it and kick the player. Likewise if someone attempted to cheat with mods, nothing to do but get over it and kick. You were trying to show a situation where modding causes a severe game-killing problem, but in your example, modding didn't cause any problems, let alone one big enough to dampen anyone's enjoyment to the point where they'd want to stop playing. To me it looks like there is a fixation on mods, when situations that are actually bad (like a rammer) won't raise nearly as much concern.

You can come up with a million hypotheticals to support your argument, but in the situation I proposed it is hard to believe anybody would think that was fair, and only a hack supporter would say something like "get over it", like it is my job to get over people cheating online and not my job to try and actively stop it?

I think it's quite reasonable to say get over it, or is it unreasonable to say get over a rammer and just remove that guy from the room? I'm not saying just accept cheaters in your room, that's obviously not helpful. I'm saying be realistic and don't blow things out of proportion just because modding is involved. The situation you proposed was totally fair. If we change things and make it so that the mod car user had an intention to cheat, he would have only succeeded because the rest of the people in the room weren't racing competitively. If we amend things to say that they were, the whole thing falls apart because the room would have regulation enforced and the modded car would be gone.

My opinion is hackers should try and stop justifying yourselves, just like most minority groups you guys have the biggest voices of them all and will try anything to justify your views while trying to put down anyone who tries to stop you from breaking the rules.

I've been passing out ideas on how to make everyone happy since the GT5 modding issue. You've been here in this thread saying "mods are evil".

Well, welcome to life buddy, because there is a whole army of us on this earth dedicated to keeping the peace and follow certain rules and try not to break them on purpose, we are not going away.

And then there are people trying to make everything work out instead of opening fire on sight when something new comes along.

And to say, "guys, they are not here", they are here, some have already admitted in this thread they actively go online with hacked cars

Which isn't an issue.

Flipping out, what are you even talking about, really, this is your way of backing up an argument, by nitpicking?

You have already proven you are hopeless at actually carrying a discussion based on what has been said, you basically paraphrase every quote from someone, pick and choose quotes from whole paragraphs and then present them in such a way to try and justify your own view.

And you say I am the one that flips out? Time to go and have a good long hard look in the mirror, because now I'm almost certain you are just reflecting back and forth on yourself.

For what it's worth, you could say something to rebut his points instead of claiming that everything is nitpicking or whatever. No breaking someone's post into quote chunks isn't deception. It's clear communication.

This is just getting into semantics now, actively going online with a hacked car and not telling the lobby and trying to deceive is cheating, no matter what semantics people try and spin on it.

No it isn't. Trying to gain an unfair advantage is cheating, which is completely different. Notice you added a modifier ("and not telling" [you're a word modder now by the way]) to make hacking seem bad. Although not telling someone that you made your car look different isn't a big deal at all.

Now technically, modders do have the ability to do something that non modders can't do. But it basically comes down to a harmless visual change unless the room is run poorly or is vulnerable to cheating that doesn't involve modding. Which means modding isn't causing any problems.

So it is clearly OK to hack

Yes.

and ruin others fun?

No.

Seems like a very entitled attitude to me. I want it, so I am going to get it no matter who I trample over along the way.

Or, I want it, so I'll get it without bothering anyone.

 

[Vagabond]

So it is clearly OK to hack and ruin others fun? Not sure where your "clear logic" comes from either.

Seems like a very entitled attitude to me. I want it, so I am going to get it no matter who I trample over along the way.

The logic you seem to be giving is : I don't want to pay for another system and game that allows me to do the things I want, I want this game to do it, so I am going to break it and do what I want, I don't care who gets in the way.
Great logic that is.....

Logic? You are working on the premise that everyone who is likely to hack the save to edit car attributes is doing it to "spoil others' fun" The two are not mutually inclusive and yet you are clinging desperately to this assumption no matter what explanations are offered to you to the contrary. Entering a conversation with the determination not to be swayed no matter what is said is not logical. The argument is not whether it is legal to hack the game and edit the assets, it is whether everyone who does this has nefarious intent towards others in online gameplay. Clearly they don't, so this qualifies as a grey area that you are vehemently trying to ignore in favour of a witch-hunt type attitude of 'burn them anyway!'

 

[Tornado]

Flipping out, what are you even talking about, really, this is your way of backing up an argument, by nitpicking?

You have already proven you are hopeless at actually carrying a discussion based on what has been said, you basically paraphrase every quote from someone, pick and choose quotes from whole paragraphs and then present them in such a way to try and justify your own view.

And you say I am the one that flips out? Time to go and have a good long hard look in the mirror, because now I'm almost certain you are just reflecting back and forth on yourself

I'll make this very simple for you, since I'm on my tablet and typing is a bitch on it: When your response to nearly every criticism of your opinion is a multi-post tirade about how everyone arguing against you is twisting your words around, you run the very real risk of others noticing how heavily you rely on it as a debate tactic to avoid actually debating the statements you dropped with such gusto only a few posts earlier. This remains doubly the case when you are invited directly to back up the claims of deliberate misinterpretation you've repeatedly howled about and you outright refuse.


The further "I cannot believe you're defending that opinion I disagree with" schtick that makes up your remaining posts (first with the silly "I'm boycotting your tunes Johnnypenso" dribble and just now with the "You hackers will say anything to justify your behavior" bit you tried on Exorcet when when they both argued your claims) similarly colors your argument.

 

[JDM_Tuning_S3OZ]

I accept the terms of this agreement. X

No. I'm saying engine swaps are irrelevant to how drifting is judged/scored.

And I'm saying me using engine swapped cars in drift lobbies doesn't effect anyone else, I'm not cheating and I'm not gaining an advantage.

So it is clearly OK to hack and ruin others fun? Not sure where your "clear logic" comes from either.

Seems like a very entitled attitude to me. I want it, so I am going to get it no matter who I trample over along the way.

The logic you seem to be giving is : I don't want to pay for another system and game that allows me to do the things I want, I want this game to do it, so I am going to break it and do what I want, I don't care who gets in the way.
Great logic that is.....

So me joining lobbies where everyone has the engine swapped/drivetrain swapped cars is ruining their fun?

@subsist, @jimipitbull
How about you's have a think and research what drifting is all about.

 

[p3bucky]

I'll make this very simple for you, since I'm on my tablet and typing is a bitch on it: When your response to nearly every criticism of your opinion is a multi-post tirade about how everyone arguing against you is twisting your words around, you run the very real risk of others noticing how heavily you rely on it as a debate tactic to avoid actually debating the statements you dropped with such gusto only a few posts earlier. This remains doubly the case when you are invited directly to back up the claims of deliberate misinterpretation you've repeatedly howled about and you outright refuse.

I just gave up trying with him. Every time I'd respond he would claim I was putting words in his mouth when he was the one twisting everything I was saying. It's a lost cause to try to respond to him.

 

[Downhill Dino]

My main concern with all this is the time trial cheating, and the uncertainty in racing rooms. Makes everything a little more hostile, and players are wrongly kicked from these rooms. As experiences in GT5 proved.

How about you's have a think and research what drifting is all about.

How is engine swapping and such what drifting is about?

 

[AzNTypeR]

I wouldn't mind if the Hybrid's had a HP limit where you couldn't go over the Stock Car's Max HP.

For example, you couldn't have 1500hp X1 powered 500s, you could still have the engine but you would be restricted to how much the 500 would put out if it was maxed out, so 100hp.

Does this make any sense to anyone? Or do I need to rephrase it?

 

[p3bucky]

My main concern with all this is the time trial cheating, and the uncertainty in racing rooms. Makes everything a little more hostile, and players are wrongly kicked from these rooms. As experiences in GT5 proved.

That's why I never did TT and real racing rooms. You just gotta hope that the people using modded cars know their boundaries, which a lot of them didn't judging by GT5. Maybe PD will just embrace hybrids (LOL) and put extra filters in to try to keep that down.

 

[Exorcet]

I wouldn't mind if the Hybrid's had a HP limit where you couldn't go over the Stock Car's Max HP.

For example, you couldn't have 1500hp X1 powered 500s, you could still have the engine but you would be restricted to how much the 500 would put out if it was maxed out, so 100hp.

Does this make any sense to anyone? Or do I need to rephrase it?

It doesn't do anything though. A 1500 HP Fiat is useless against room restrictions.

The game needs to detect file changes so that no one can lie about what they are using. Either that or just give the host the stats of everyone's car. In GT5 hovering over a player showed tires and driver aids. Update that to show power, PP, etc.

 

[jimipitbull]

@subsist, @jimipitbull
How about you's have a think and research what drifting is all about.

To some it's a scene, to others it's just a bit of fun. Way back when shopping centres were closed on Sundays, we used to carve up the car parks. In hindsight, it was a form of drifting, though the term drifting wasn't really used back then.

I once heard that drifting is like the synchronised swimming of motorsports. A brakedance battle hip hop analogy could also be used.

 

[subsist]

I'd need to be a magician to mod anything. I don't have a GT6 to do anything with.


Well in that case, anything is possible and we're all doomed so there is no point in even trying to stop it.


I didn't twist anything. I showed that modding wasn't even an issue. Cheating is the only issue.

Rereading your example, the mod car player didn't even do anything wrong. That person just found a room where the car was eligible. I personally think as a manner of etiquette, a modded car should be announced in a public room and granted permission by the host, but taking a PP abiding modified car into a room is a non issue. It's even less of an issue when the people in the room aren't even doing competitive racing as in your example (if it was competitive they'd probably inquire about the modded car's PP, etc). Nothing unfair happened. A player brought a car to a race where the car was allowed. I don't see how the race was ruined as you said. The only person with a "sour taste in their mouth forever" from that event would be people who need anger management.

Consider if there was no modding involved. The slow car was simply made fast due to a glitch. The driver doesn't realize it's a glitch, and the other players don't know about the glitch. The other players lose the race after selecting slow cars, is there anything for them to be mad about? No. The same is true in your example since no one is trying to get an unfair advantage.

Or going back to the point I was originally pointing at with my response, let's say that the guy with the mod car was trying to cheat. Would it be any better if instead this player didn't mod anything, but just entered the room to crash into other people? The driver would ram everyone. That would be a real problem, but still not much to do but get over it and kick the player. Likewise if someone attempted to cheat with mods, nothing to do but get over it and kick. You were trying to show a situation where modding causes a severe game-killing problem, but in your example, modding didn't cause any problems, let alone one big enough to dampen anyone's enjoyment to the point where they'd want to stop playing. To me it looks like there is a fixation on mods, when situations that are actually bad (like a rammer) won't raise nearly as much concern.



I think it's quite reasonable to say get over it, or is it unreasonable to say get over a rammer and just remove that guy from the room? I'm not saying just accept cheaters in your room, that's obviously not helpful. I'm saying be realistic and don't blow things out of proportion just because modding is involved. The situation you proposed was totally fair. If we change things and make it so that the mod car user had an intention to cheat, he would have only succeeded because the rest of the people in the room weren't racing competitively. If we amend things to say that they were, the whole thing falls apart because the room would have regulation enforced and the modded car would be gone.


I've been passing out ideas on how to make everyone happy since the GT5 modding issue. You've been here in this thread saying "mods are evil".


And then there are people trying to make everything work out instead of opening fire on sight when something new comes along.


Which isn't an issue.

To answer some of your feedback :

The modded player did do something wrong, he changed game code to make an illegal car and then went online and raced it making others in the lobby believe he was in a different car. It is only one hypothetical but you seem to keep trying to bring in other instances into this hypothetical.

A player coming in and ramming people off the track to ruin a race is a completely different issue. Of course it would not be "better". I don't even know why you are asking that question as it makes no sense to me at all. In this case he is on the track to ruin fun at the expense of taking others out of the race. Not on the track to win by driving a car that is disguised. Two completely separate issues, one of which has nothing to do with the topic and is just an aunt sally argument.

In a modded cars case I suspect the usual M.O is to go into a room clandestine and try and win the race with people none the wiser. I'm guessing most modder's are not in a room just to take people out of a race, they are in it to win a race with a car that is deceiving. [If they fail to mention they are in a modded car of course]. They are two completely separate issues and scenarios and I have no idea how you can even see how the two correlate to each other.

A rammer can also be visually picked up very fast and removed from the room, but a modded car will always have a question mark over its head. You will see a very bed car for it PP level always win a race and you start asking yourself, is this guy just a super driver or is he in a modded car? Because I've driven that car a thousand times, and I know it cannot take turn 3 at this track that fast.... That is when finger pointing can arise, something I always want to avoid without any proof. But it will happen.


So in my situation, you think it is completely fair that honest drivers would change their car choice based on what they see the opposition racing, then get blown away by a guy in a car that is in all truth, "A wolf in sheep's clothing".
Morally you find that situation fine? It also does not matter if it was a serious race or not, a race is a race and cheating is cheating. Morally I find that pretty dishonest, but I guess some of you guys are dishonest and don't really care about the others it affects... Well, that is the way it seems to me.

 

[Shells N Cheese]

It doesn't do anything though. A 1500 HP Fiat is useless against room restrictions.

The game needs to detect file changes so that no one can lie about what they are using. Either that or just give the host the stats of everyone's car. In GT5 hovering over a player showed tires and driver aids. Update that to show power, PP, etc.

They could do that but what if they are just running a simple grip mod? There is no way of detecting that by hovering over a person's name. There is always going to be something that can slip by and because there wouldn't really be a way to prove that a person is running a grip mod it would be so easy to lie about it and get away with it.

 

[p3bucky]

To answer some of your feedback :

A player coming in and ramming people off the track to ruin a race is a completely different issue. Of course it would not be "better". I don't even know why you are asking that question as it makes no sense to me at all. In this case he is on the track to ruin fun at the expense of taking others out of the race. Not on the track to win by driving a car that is disguised. Two completely separate issues, one of which has nothing to do with the topic and is just an aunt sally argument.

In a modded cars case I suspect the usual M.O is to go into a room clandestine and try and win the race with people none the wiser. I'm guessing most modder's are not in a room just to take people out of a race, they are in it to win a race with a car that is deceiving. [If they fail to mention they are in a modded car of course]. They are two completely separate issues and scenarios and I have no idea how you can even see how the two correlate to each other.

Question for you, what would you think if the person wasn't using the car to win, like in a cruise or drift lobby, but they were simply just trying to cruise and drift? Is that still cheating?

 

[Tornado]

I just gave up trying with him. Every time I'd respond he would claim I was putting words in his mouth when he was the one twisting everything I was saying. It's a lost cause to try to respond to him.

I figured as much, though it should have been clear last night. Normally I catch on to people whose argument hinges entirely on trying to dictate morality over minutiae much quicker, but I've had a bad week. It became evident soon enough, I guess.

They could do that but what if they are just running a simple grip mod? There is no way of detecting that by hovering over a person's name. There is always going to be something that can slip by and because there wouldn't really be a way to prove that a person is running a grip mod it would be so easy to lie about it and get away with it.

That could be difficult, but if you had a decent reference point for what their car should be at PP wise considering the specs shown you could make a reasonable guess. For example, a "regular" Mercury Cougar isn't going to have the same PWR of an NSX-R and be at the same PP level.

 

[JDM_Tuning_S3OZ]

To some it's a scene, to others it's just a bit of fun.

I once heard that drifting is like the synchronised swimming of motorsports. A brakedance battle hip hop analogy could also work.

Yes it is a scene, but mostly it's about having the most fun possible whether it's just you or tandeming your friends whilst pushing your cars to the absolute limit.

Saying that we are 'cheating' because we want to simulate our own cars into the game is just pathetic.