Idea - How to solve GT Car Sounds

  • Thread starter CalhauGTi
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There are copyright issues, in that the samples produced belong to the studio that made them. Supposedly, in the main, car manufacturers don't actually care what their cars sound like in games, in the sense that it's the legal and marketing teams responsible for that aspect. They must not be enthusiasts... GT never seems to have fallen foul for having inaccurate sounds, or else they would have been remedied pronto.

The GT86 comparison is a clear indication of the kinds of problems that crop up when making games with so much content. You make small changes to the sound engine, and all your presets / patches / tweaks etc. go out the window. In that case it's a simple matter of the exhaust tip noise overpowering the recorded sample. It's one number that needs correcting; annoying that they missed it, but the sound components are essentially the same between the games, just in a different balance.

I have a better solution for the sounds:

1 - Fire eveyone on the sound team and everyone in the company who thinks the current sounds are ok.
2 - Throw away every single sound file they have and record everything again from scratch.
3 - Use a conventional and proven method to create the samples (because AES or whatever crap they're trying to do clearly isn't working)

AES doesn't create samples, and if you're complaining about individual cars' sounds, you're unlikely to be complaining about the ones that use AES. Statistically speaking.

Maybe PD should use FMOD like many other racing games
But i think this will not happen because PD are working on their own sound engine

FMOD does not like fast audio ticks, it's fully event based and the streaming provision is not especially flexible. PD stream the physics into the audio engine for crisp response, like iRacing (who tried FMOD and abandoned it because it needed too much reworking to give them the features they needed; e.g. faithful following of the transmission flex simulation).

FMOD is "just" a plug in environment for handling sound sources, it does not exactly have a sound of its own; plenty of games use FMOD and sound awful. The assets matter slightly more in this case.

GT's sound engine is fantastic, one of the best around. They just persist in using the wrong samples, and too few of them. That latter point is subtle: GT ships with more samples than are used in-game. It seems to skip some as you rev through, so it sounds thinner. Almost like it's still using the PS1 era configuration. The samples sound OK in other games, when all of them are used.

This is not the sample the problem, it s how you place the change note at different situations
I saw the making off of the DiRT games, they explain how they do

DiRT Rally uses a granular synthesis system which is different from normal sampling.

It plays little snippets from a "ramp" recording (engine revs constantly rising / accelerating or falling / decelerating) for excellent fidelity at all engine speeds with no sample crossover or blending issues. But it suffers at constant rpm, sounding a bit like a stuck audio CD (remember those?), unless you use little tricks. Those tricks effectively involve decoupling the physics from the playback, which is not ideal for player feedback.
 
The samples sound OK in other games, when all of them are used.
And if you have someone mixing them together properly, eh? ;)
I actually think FMOD or Wwise would be a good solution, I mean I kinda proved it to you, didn't I?

Gran Turismo sound samples in Assetto Corsa work so much better than in GT, it's comical.
 
And if you have someone mixing them together properly, eh? ;)
I actually think FMOD or Wwise would be a good solution, I mean I kinda proved it to you, didn't I?

Gran Turismo sound samples in Assetto Corsa work so much better than in GT, it's comical.
Not quite; you proved that using all the samples available worked. ;)

FMOD or Wwise is not a solution without the proper assets, the samples. In addition, FMOD in particular is typically run at slow control rates (i.e. the framerate, by default), which colours the sound through aliasing.

If you already have a sound engine, and one that doesn't alias to boot, then you only need the samples. PD have the samples (in some cases at least), but didn't use them all. It's almost as if their priority in sound production was elsewhere for a time...


And yes, good work with the demonstrations 👍
 
Where can I find vids of the Gran Turismo sound samples used in Assetto Corsa? Google and YouTube is failing me.
 
Not quite; you proved that using all the samples available worked. ;)

FMOD or Wwise is not a solution without the proper assets, the samples. In addition, FMOD in particular is typically run at slow control rates (i.e. the framerate, by default), which colours the sound through aliasing.

If you already have a sound engine, and one that doesn't alias to boot, then you only need the samples. PD have the samples (in some cases at least), but didn't use them all. It's almost as if their priority in sound production was elsewhere for a time...


And yes, good work with the demonstrations 👍

All good points, and you obviously know what you're talking about.

Personally, the two things I think it's missing still, that have less to do with technical procedures, and more to do with a sense of creativity, are the non-engine sounds and the effects work.

The sounds associated with tires on different surfaces, gravel bouncing on the chassis, rain drops on the windshield, that kind of thing, and their level in the mix, is crucial. GT, in my opinion, has traditionally lacked this.

This first point is related to the 2nd, that of the effects work that could reduce the 'cleanness' of the overall soundscape. Distortion, clipping, unevenness, glitches, etc - these are the things that change a 'nice' sound into something resembling a 'real' sound.

Just an opinion of course, but lots of room for improvement in GT's audio, or at the very least, some varied approaches between different games in the genre.

Also, we're all waiting on the final build of GTS of course, and I'm excited to see what it sounds like.
 
Today I had an idea.
As we all know, Gran Turismo Series has some problems, but there is one that stands out: car sounds.
I think that can be solved easily (at least in my mind).
We know that there are some games which have good car sounds.
Is there any problem in Kaz paying for the rights of those sounds?
Imagine that I have a racing game.
Can I have rights on my car sounds?
It would be great: it would save some time for PD, other racing games would have more profit, and we, GT fans, would race with that car that we like, with a proper sound.
It would be awesome to race in GT Sport with the Z4 GT3 (featured in GT6) with the PCars' Z4 sound (for example)...

Each title has strengths and weaknesses, We as Sim Racers just has to come to terms with this fact, buy the title that features the majority of your needs for Sim Racing immersion, or buy them all, I use to write a lot for these types of topics, but since the release of Project CARS and Forza Motorsport 6 I pretty much have come to terms with this fact: "Each title has an Achilles Heel", GT Sport has Horrible Sound, Forza Motorsport 6 has no Driving Penalties and Cartoonish Graphics, Assetto Corsa has very little variety and No Cosmetic Damage, Project CARS Doesn't have Laser Scanned Tracks and No Real Personal Car Garage or Livery Editor. In my opinion if Turn 10 address the Lack of Driving Penalties and Graphics it would be #1. It seems to me it would take less work to perfect. Just Polish the Graphics and add Racing Penalties:dopey: Well it sounds easy anyway:lol:

But GT has missed A WHOLE Console Generation i.e. Standard PS4 (4YEARS!!!) which is A shame. It is the reason a begin shopping for other titles to begin with, only to find the competition is Pretty Good and they delivery fresh content on the regular, Which is another Polyphony Digital weakness.:banghead:
 
FMOD does not like fast audio ticks, it's fully event based and the streaming provision is not especially flexible. PD stream the physics into the audio engine for crisp response, like iRacing (who tried FMOD and abandoned it because it needed too much reworking to give them the features they needed; e.g. faithful following of the transmission flex simulation).

FMOD is "just" a plug in environment for handling sound sources, it does not exactly have a sound of its own; plenty of games use FMOD and sound awful. The assets matter slightly more in this case.

GT's sound engine is fantastic, one of the best around. They just persist in using the wrong samples, and too few of them. That latter point is subtle: GT ships with more samples than are used in-game. It seems to skip some as you rev through, so it sounds thinner. Almost like it's still using the PS1 era configuration. The samples sound OK in other games, when all of them are used.
Thank you for the explanation 👍 :cheers:
 
All good points, and you obviously know what you're talking about.

Personally, the two things I think it's missing still, that have less to do with technical procedures, and more to do with a sense of creativity, are the non-engine sounds and the effects work.

The sounds associated with tires on different surfaces, gravel bouncing on the chassis, rain drops on the windshield, that kind of thing, and their level in the mix, is crucial. GT, in my opinion, has traditionally lacked this.

This first point is related to the 2nd, that of the effects work that could reduce the 'cleanness' of the overall soundscape. Distortion, clipping, unevenness, glitches, etc - these are the things that change a 'nice' sound into something resembling a 'real' sound.

Just an opinion of course, but lots of room for improvement in GT's audio, or at the very least, some varied approaches between different games in the genre.

Also, we're all waiting on the final build of GTS of course, and I'm excited to see what it sounds like.

I agree in principle, there is a lot of sterility to the soundscape.

But I don't see that distortion of any kind is really the answer, except (whisper it) on low-end hardware.

I personally believe that extra effort should be spent on spatial mixing and related effects for each sound source (rather than treating them as unphysical point sources with spherical propagation). This will return more immersion than any cheap "loudness" hack. DiRT Rally is probably the best example of this approach right now, although mainly in the mixing, not so much the propagation. GT has the beginnings of some interesting propagation effects that could be useful in the future.


In addition, one or two of those sound layers already are in the game, but, as you say, are not mixed in prominently. This is sort of a hardware issue as well, because it all comes across fine on my headphones (higher dynamic range, lower background noise floor).


In essence, PD need a dedicated lo-fi mix, not just a lo-fi dynamic range option.

There is an awful lot to consider with this sort of thing, and it's easy to take it for granted. It just means that those that really get it right should be appreciated even more. ;)

Does it appear VR Tour Mode will have truer sounds than the other modes in the game?

I can't imagine why this would be the case; if anything there should be fewer resources available in VR mode, and anything that costs nothing at runtime should be applied to all modes of the game, in my opinion.
 
Pole Position. But that GT86 in GT6:yuck::yuck:

Now I know where the vacuum cleaner comment came from. I had actually forgotten about that since I haven't touched Gran Turismo in a few years. The endless tyre screeches really irritated me the most as it happened as soon as you turned the wheel. The tyre screeches dominated every other sound that took place. :/
 
Today I had an idea.
As we all know, Gran Turismo Series has some problems, but there is one that stands out: car sounds.
I think that can be solved easily (at least in my mind).
We know that there are some games which have good car sounds.
Is there any problem in Kaz paying for the rights of those sounds?
Imagine that I have a racing game.
Can I have rights on my car sounds?
It would be great: it would save some time for PD, other racing games would have more profit, and we, GT fans, would race with that car that we like, with a proper sound.
It would be awesome to race in GT Sport with the Z4 GT3 (featured in GT6) with the PCars' Z4 sound (for example)...
Counter idea: Everyone else can make good sounds, PD can make good sounds too.
It's called "effort".
 
...PD can make good sounds too...

Even if this is the case they'll always be behind other developers since they've waited too long. I think few people are going to want to stick with the game known for having the worst sounds of it's genre. Especially when everyone else continues to push the boundaries of what's possible in sound thereby making an experience that's so much richer than what's come before.

It's already at the point that people will pass on the next GT game solely because it's sounds aren't up to snuff, and as far as I can see the gap between GT's sounds and the competition is only going to get wider.
 
Even if this is the case they'll always be behind other developers since they've waited too long. I think few people are going to want to stick with the game known for having the worst sounds of it's genre. Especially when everyone else continues to push the boundaries of what's possible in sound thereby making an experience that's so much richer than what's come before.

It's already at the point that people will pass on the next GT game solely because it's sounds aren't up to snuff, and as far as I can see the gap between GT's sounds and the competition is only going to get wider.

Its the first Gran Turismo I haven't even pre-ordered. Nothing is really enticing me. Nothing is saying must have.
 
@Griffith500,
It's always refreshing to read your well thought out, well written posts. (Among others here)

Even if 90% of what I read is like Chinese algebra to me, I always learn something from it.

Thanks for keeping it grounded.

:cheers:
 
Also, we're all waiting on the final build of GTS of course, and I'm excited to see what it sounds like.

The problem with this mentality is expecting a miracle in a short space of time when we have overwhelming evidence of a complete lack of change on PD's part since GT first came about.

We know exactly what it sounds like because nothing is going to change between the builds that have already been played and videoed and the final game. PD just don't do that. For the most part everything is locked in now.

There might be a few subtle tweaks here or there but I'd wager 99% of the car samples aren't going to change, the way they're processed definitely isn't going to change, neither are the tyre sounds or impact sounds.

Simply put, for the most part we know exactly what GTS is going to be already, we're just waiting on the release now to see how much content they've put in and in what form.
 
Honestly no Mekonrider. I just had been biased towards GT as I love the game.
On reflection though, although I have no real problems with GT as discussed, I do admit y'all may have a point worth considering and I actually have been since. I'm considering looking to buy one of the other racing games for PS4, maybe by the next 3 months or so if GTsport doesn't announce delivery soon.
You need to.

I have a Sony ES series AV receiver running into a Monitor Audio 7.1 speaker set-up (circa £2k) and the GT series doesn't hold a candle to the likes of Project Cars, Dirt Rally, Driveclub or Assetto Corsa in terms of audio.

Yes a good AV system will improve GT over running in via a set of TV speakers, but a good AV system will do that with any audio source you feed it and the list I provided above all sound better (and closer to reality) that GT regardless of what you are using to play them back.
 
You need to.

I have a Sony ES series AV receiver running into a Monitor Audio 7.1 speaker set-up (circa £2k) and the GT series doesn't hold a candle to the likes of Project Cars, Dirt Rally, Driveclub or Assetto Corsa in terms of audio.

Yes a good AV system will improve GT over running in via a set of TV speakers, but a good AV system will do that with any audio source you feed it and the list I provided above all sound better (and closer to reality) that GT regardless of what you are using to play them back.

I actually went ahead and bought Project Cars for my PS4 last weekend. Just getting into it. Have to admit the sound is really superior to GT6.
On the driving side initially had some handling problems but once I calibrated the wheel (G29) and pedals it's all good.
Currently going through the Career Races and working my way up. Really enjoying it. The cars are beautiful to watch too in their pristine finish. Glad i bought it.
 
The problem with this mentality is expecting a miracle in a short space of time when we have overwhelming evidence of a complete lack of change on PD's part since GT first came about.

We know exactly what it sounds like because nothing is going to change between the builds that have already been played and videoed and the final game. PD just don't do that. For the most part everything is locked in now.

There might be a few subtle tweaks here or there but I'd wager 99% of the car samples aren't going to change, the way they're processed definitely isn't going to change, neither are the tyre sounds or impact sounds.

Simply put, for the most part we know exactly what GTS is going to be already, we're just waiting on the release now to see how much content they've put in and in what form.

I can see what you're trying to say, the reasons behind the cynicism, but I'd simply prefer to judge something when I can play it myself.

Anything else is jumping the gun.
 
I just wish they let Mike Caviezel speak. I'd like to hear it from him what challenges he's faced joining PD and working with their sounds, how he thinks the sound improvements are progressing, what the future holds etc etc. Instead PD keep him quietly working, and we've no idea what is going on. We'd have no idea if he was even still there if not for LinkedIn and stuff like that. Let him interview, or let him post on the Pitstop blog.
 
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I just wish they like Mike Caviezel speak. I'd like to hear it from him what challenges he's faced joining PD and working with their sounds, how he thinks the sound improvements are progressing, what the future holds etc etc. Instead PD keep him quietly working, and we've no idea what is going on. We'd have no idea if he was even still there if not for LinkedIn and stuff like that. Let him interview, or let him post on the Pitstop blog.
It would certainly be interesting. But I think the simple answer is that his position is not so prominent as many either hoped or presume.

On the other hand, PD might want to keep schtum about what they're working on, in case anyone beats them to it again. :dopey:
 
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