Inconsiderate People

[Danoff]

People are not good at thinking of others. This is abundantly clear from displays of mobs trampling each other at the mall to get 5 bucks off a barbie doll to cars burning in France. Human beings are simply not wired to think about others before they think about themselves. We're self-centered and self-oriented. Even when people think that they're being selfless they usually have self-centered motivations. "I help the homeless because it makes me feel good".

There's nothing we can do about it. It's just the way we are. We just have to sit back and embrace it. But sometimes you're stricken with an example of self-centered thinking so bluntly that you just have to sit back and marvel at the situation.

At work, I drive up to a T intersection to get to the parking lot (see the map). The intersection has a crosswalk across it and a sidewalk on the other side. Needless to say, at 8am there is a good deal of traffic moving through this intersection, and quite a number of people walking from their cars back through this intersection on their way to work.

Every morning, and every evening I see people choose to walk through the crosswalk - stopping traffic and generally backing things up when they could walk on the other side of the road, not have to use the cross walk, and then cross later - at a part of the road where there is essentially no traffic.

This morning I was baffled by a person who was walking on the northern sidewalk in that map, crossed to the south part to cross the street in front of traffic, and then went back to the north since his building was Northeast of the map.

What the hell? Does he just WANT to cause traffic?

It's not that people are being rude, its that they're simply not even thinking about the cars on the road (even though they were just in their cars). How you cannot consider the people in their cars when you're walking down a street is beyond me, but that's what I see every morning. People are so self-oriented they aren't even AWARE of the presence of others.

Now I can see you making this mistake for the first few months of working here. But after years you should have figured out to walk on the other side of the road. I also would like to point out that since I live in LA, most of the people that I'm talking about just got out of their hybrid cars with the "no war in Iraq" bumper stickers. These people are self-proclaimed liberals who are supposedly always thinking about others (except the less-unfortunate).

Ok enough of my rant. I was just amazed at evolution and how self-oriented it has made all of us and I thought I'd share.

 

[Zardoz]

...I also would like to point out that since I live in LA, most of the people that I'm talking about just got out of their hybrid cars with the "no war in Iraq" bumper stickers. These people are self-proclaimed liberals who are supposedly always thinking about others (except the less-unfortunate)...

That is a breathtakingly bizarre statement...

 

[Danoff]

That is a breathtakingly bizarre statement...

You can't argue with the validity though...

 

[Danoff]

I bring up the fact that many of these people are liberal not to bash liberals so much (since lots of people can't figure out how to manage this intersection, liberals and conservatives alike). But more to point out the irony in people who think they can manage the price of gasoline better than the free market not being able to manage an intersection.

 

[Swift]

I bring up the fact that many of these people are liberal not to bash liberals so much (since lots of people can't figure out how to manage this intersection, liberals and conservatives alike). But more to point out the irony in people who think they can manage the price of gasoline better than the free market not being able to manage an intersection.

That's a breathtakingly accurate statement!

 

[Duke]

I see it all the time and I never cease to be amazed at how you can possibly avoid being considerate to that level. I am among those who have been repeatedly called callous and uncaring by others on this board - yet I am nearly always conscious of my effect on my surroundings.

From people who walk into a building and stop dead just inside the doors, once they are inside, to people who stand and have long conversations in the middle of busy grocery store aisles, to people who park in the fire lane and handicap spots right in front of our daycare while they drop their kids off intead of walking the extra 30 feet from the parking lot, to people who drive into the middle of an intersection even though there is obviously no room for their car on the other side, it's simply infuriating, and it makes want to see if they consider a tire iron any more than anything else.

 

[Kylehnat]

I have noticed that pedestrians are quite inconsiderate. Especially here, on and near a college campus, people cross whenever and wherever they please, with no regard for the drivers. Many times I have seen people hop into the street in front of busses, which would crush them like a grape without so much as leaving a scratch on the bus. Idiocy. I jaywalk and cross illegally all the time, as a lot of the signals around here are on timers, and often times there is no traffic to impede my crossing the street. As a pedestrian though, I am always as considerate as I can be to drivers. I won't cross if it means that the driver has to change what they are doing to accomidate me. By law, pedestrians always have the right-of-way, regardless of how stupid they are, but that does not give them a free-pass on being a jackass.

 

[Danoff]

By law, pedestrians always have the right-of-way, regardless of how stupid they are, but that does not give them a free-pass on being a jackass.

A lot of people don't seem to realize this.

I try to give people the benefit of the doubt. When a guy is jaywalking across the road I try to tell myself that he might just be in a big hurry. But when you see the same exact thing every morning and evening at your place of work - the same people having the same lack of thought - people from all nationalities (Canadian, French, British, Scottish, etc.) all doing the same thing it has to be something fundamental.

I know these people, I work with them. It isn't stupidity or rudeness. It's a simple lack of thought. They just aren't even aware of how their actions are disturbing others - because it hasn't impacted them.

 

[MinorShunt]

because it hasn't impacted them.

Pun intended?

A recent example from my neck of the woods:

Walmart recently completed building a super duper mega mart to replace the old monsterous but apparently too small building. My wife was excited that she would finally be able to shop without feeling so confined as in the old "small" store. So after her first excursion, I asked how it had gone, if indeed it was roomier, and an overall more pleasant shopping experience. Her response was no, instead of not being able to manuever around 2 rather stout women side by side chatting in the middle of an aisle as in the old store, she now had to figure out a way to manuever around 3 rather stout women side by side by side chatting in the middle of the new wider aisles!

Some things never change......

 

[Kylehnat]

Here's one: As I came back home from class a few minutes ago, I was walking along a path. It's snowing right now, so the grass next to the path is muddy and slick. As I'm walking, a group of 3 people is walking 3-abreast on said path, coming towards me. I scooch over as far as I can without walking in the mud, to give them some room. Does any one of the three hang back a bit as they pass me so we all have room? No. I'm forced onto the sludge, dirtying my pants, because they don't feel that I am important enough to share their path. Assholes.

 

[smellysocks12]

Yep, survival and competition are our main priorities, which is why we have been able to survive and evolve into what we are now. People do have morals which are enforced by our consciousness, but sometimes instinct takes over and overpowers rational thinking. For some people it is easier to let instinct take over, since their intelligence lacks and doesn't take much for instinct to take over control. At a certain point anyone will break. It's natural.


This is the reason why I mentioned in the discussion about morality, that I would take your snickers bar with force if I'd have to, if I would be on the verge of starving to death.

 

[James2097]

The reason why people aren't considerate:

They don't get anything out of being considerate to strangers or general road users. Because no one is that considerate (to the extent danoff is desiring) its kinda like a catch 22. No one will start being considerate because they know everyone else will still be rude to them (no win situation for them), and they don't want to be the sucker who gets screwed all the time. If people make THEM wait while driving, they'll damn well get their own back on society by making others wait for them while when they're walking! No point being a good samaritan and getting the short end of the stick ALL the time....

It would take a completely different culture and a significant shift in societal values for people to start behaving any differently en mass. Thank the lack of true community, capitalism (nothing wrong with it, but this is a side-effect) and materialism for the "me" generation, full of rude self-serving pricks. Of course if you go to the more rural areas, I find people are MUCH more courteous and polite. Everyone waves to passing cars etc and gets off the road a little to give space while passing etc...

Its mainly just a problem with density and over-crowding in modern cities, it becomes impossible to be polite and courteous to EVERYONE... (remember croc dundee how he waved to everyone and said "G'day" to random people in New York - the normal city people thought he was INSANE and really weird (even ignoring the clothes and Aussie-ness), but he was just being friendly in his normal way). People simply turn into objects to be dodged, to be ignored and not really seen or acknowledged as cities become bigger and community dies. It simply becomes impractical to say "G'day" to everyone or extend the kind of courteousy we would otherwise like to.

One thing that really gets to me - when you let someone in ahead of you (while driving) so they don't have to wait all day to catch a gap in the traffic, and they don't even give a wave of 'thanks'. They are just unaware that you were being nice, because as a general rule, NO ONE IS NICE so you must've just slowed down or stopped your car just behind them because YOU WANTED TO! It doesn't even cross some people's minds that maybe you're being considerate of them and this bugs me.

So if you get no gesture of "thanks" or emotional feeling that you did the right thing, the return of investment for being "nice" doesn't pay off. Why continue being nice when people don't even recognise it or say thanks?

I also hate it when you go to turn off into a side street (or similar situation) and there is heavy traffic behind you - so you need to get off the main road quickly to avoid slowing following cars down and possibly causing an accident. There is of course a pedestrian crossing the side street in front of you. Now what I always do AUTOMATICALLY (if in the pedestrian's shoes here), is to quicken my walking pace just by a bit (sometimes doing a couple of "jogs" if need be) just to clear the road so the car can turn without worrying about hitting me or holding up traffic. Even if the pedestrian glances at the car and quickens their walking even by the tiniest WHISKER its okay, because its like an acknowledgement that they've seen the car and are being a bit courteous (and cautious), and that relaxes the driver that they'll be alright to turn and won't hit anyone. But LOADS of people just keep walking really slowly, no acknowledgment that the car is trying to turn, no outward sign given that they understand the situation, they just make the car wait (and everyone behind that car).

What I also hate, is when pedestrians hit those buttons at traffic lights to make the traffic stop so they can cross the road safely. This is FINE, but I HATE IT WHEN THEY PUSH THE BUTTON AND THEN DECIDE NOT TO CROSS THE ROAD!!! The cars have to stop for no reason! When I cross the road I use the buttons as little as possible, and just find a decent gap in the traffic and cross then, without making everyone stop. Its still safe, because I know whats going on and I always make eye contact with the driver of a car to say "hey its cool - I see ya and I'll run if I need to!"

So many people don't make eye contact (pretty basic eh!). If you do, it just makes all these kind of situations so much more relaxed because you know everyone is aware of the situation and no one will likely get run over or hit!

Not rascist at all, but I have noticed over a few years taht in Australia's big cities (Melbourne, Sydney) that many people of asian origin tend not to be as outwardly courteous, they stand in doorways a lot more, don't let anyone in while driving, answer (and talk loudly on) mobile phones at more impolite times (even in the middle of their own job interview!) and generally aren't as courteous in public to strangers or seem quite as aware of other people. I'm not saying people that are impolite in public are bad people or not really nice if you knew them, but for some reason asians DO tend to be less aware of getting in the way, just plain WALKING INTO other pedestrians etc. Everyone has to walk/drive around them, they simply will not move or acknowledge your presence. Maybe its just that asia is a lot more crowded than Australia, so over time there has evolved a slightly less courteous culture (just do what you want to do and ignore everyone else). Just a guess, I have no idea why. There HAS to be an obvious explanation for it, because I do notice it and its real - many others have said the same thing to me, and have even said it pisses them off considerably! I'd like to think Australia is a relaxed, courteous place to live, but its becoming less like Australia every day in terms of public behaviour and general manners.

You know when you're walking down the street and someone else is going the other way toward you? I am nearly ALWAYS the one that ends up moving out of the way especially when you are about to walk into someone (usually an asian guy) and he refuses to budge even a couple of centimetres... Again maybe they're just used to large crowds and don't seem to mind rubbing shoulders bit, maybe it doesn't faze them at all. I'm perplexed because I remember hearing when I was at school about different cultures and different levels of personal space common in each culture, at what distance differnet people tend to feel comfortable. Asian people apparently are MORE comfortable with quite a bit more personal space around them than in other cultures, so hey its a mystery why the only people that consistenly rub up against you inadvertently on the tram etc and stand in the way of the doors so no one can get on and off easily tend to be of asian descent.
However, I have noticed that even big huge burly fat westerners generally move aside (as you also do) so both of you can pass easily, its just a nice gesture.
Politeness has less to do with the type of build of folk (skinny/fat/short/tall) but more about culture and how people are brought up (I emphasise its not race, but just different values and culture). Its a fact I've noticed in Australia that more asian dudes than other dudes generally don't acknowledge other road/footpath users as well as other Aussies (many other races included in this group!)... If I could just emphasise that I have NOTHING against asian people, I am simply baffled and perplexed as to what I've noticed in the streets regarding different kinds of people and how courteous they tend to be.
I have several asian designer friends and they don't get out of people's way even a smidge either! I'm not about to bring it up in conversation with them cause they might be offended though. Anyone else notice this in other countries or is it just Australia?

 

[xcsti]

I have one thing that makes me angry.

I live in a rural college town (there is only farms here without the college) where pedestrians rule all roads. I run on the cross country team (and track) and we are the most successful sport at the college. We own all the roads and can cross at any point.

Because of the walmart and other shops near the college we get traffic from every other small rural farming town for miles around. Though we dominate roads of equal business we cannot get through one intersection in perticular with ease at any point. This is a legal cross walk, marked out but lacking a light or button. Drivers speed up to ensure that they get through without us crossing before them. There are signs dictating that pedestrians have the right of way. We have stood out there for five minutes waiting for a gap or for some person to give up ten seconds of their life to allow us to cross. A quarter of a mile away we could jay walk as slow as possible with disregard to traffic of a similar amount yet get off with a kind wave. Nothing of the sort here.

Oh and also I'm reminded of my crowded high school where cliques would gaggle up in between periods taking the line of traffic down to one person in one direction at a time.

 

[Danoff]

The reason why people aren't considerate:

They don't get anything out of being considerate to strangers or general road users.

That's it, you hit the nail on the head right there. They don't get anything out of it, and people generally don't do ANYTHING unless they get something out of it. Even if it makes sense.

It would take a completely different culture and a significant shift in societal values for people to start behaving any differently en mass. Thank the lack of true community, capitalism (nothing wrong with it, but this is a side-effect) and materialism for the "me" generation, full of rude self-serving pricks. Of course if you go to the more rural areas, I find people are MUCH more courteous and polite.

Wrong. I mean your observation of the situation is correct but your reasoning behind what you're seeing is incorrect. Did you notice that you didn't have any real substance to back up your claim that it was capitalism or communityness that causes people to be inconsiderate? What does capitalism have to do with it??

Here's the reason why people in small towns are more polite - it's really quite simple. They get something out of it.

In a small town, if you're rude to someone on the road or if tick someone off - you're likely to face consequences. That's probably someone who knows you or who knows someone who knows you. That's why everyone in small towns is so polite... they get something in return. It's not even a concious thing with them, it's second nature since everyone does it and you have to do it all the time (you never know who knows who or when someone you know will walk through the door). I used to live in a VERY small town and now I live in one of the biggest cities in the US and you can trust me on this one - that's the reason.

 

[James2097]

Maybe there are multiple reasons Mr Black and White?

I thought it pretty obvious that selfishness and materialism is somewhat to blame. You CAN have cultures in big cities where people are more polite regardless of whether people know each other. Capitalism is part of the mechanations of the "self" becoming all important. Don't ever accuse me of not thinking about what I post (when I'm being serious).

Nothing wrong with capitalism, its the best system we've got so far, but yeah there are side-effects. I'm certain the reason you stated (for the impoliteness) is totally valid also.

 

[ShobThaBob]

No, they dont get anything. It's just that they face consequences if they dont. I dont recieve anything for driving the speed limit, however, I DO recieve something if I break the speed limit. Get it?

 

[James2097]

Even if the other person just smiles and gives me a wave, I consider it "getting something". I don't have to run into them (or their friends) ever again to feel good about being polite. It just makes you feel good so you can say "Well I'm not a bastard am I!?".
That constitutes "getting something" IMO.

 

[amp88]

I was in Asda today and there were several incidents of people being totally inconsiderate. Firstly, before I even got in the door a woman almost knocked me over with her trolley. She was going at light speed whilst 'controlling' the trolley with one hand and keeping her child in check with the other. She wasn't watching where she was going at all. Then, once I was inside, I was heading to the toilet. To get to the toilet in this particular Asda you have to go through the women's clothing area. So, there I am walking along when a woman picks up a top from one of the rails, holds it out in front of herself at arms length and then TAKES A STEP BACK right into my path without even looking. I have no idea why she stepped back...perhaps she thought she would get a better perspective...

Anyway, the rest was basically just the usual supermarket stuff (people stopping suddenly when they see a bargain or pushing their trolley right infront of you), until I got to the till. I usually go to the fag counter because the queues there are shorter than the normal tills and there was only one person infront of me. He was an O.A.P., probably 75+. He asked the woman behind the till for two lucky dip lottery tickets and when she told him it was £2, he pulled out two bank bags full of pennies and told her that should be right. She obviously had to count them all to make sure, it must have taken her 2 minutes at least. I just couldn't believe it. I almost laughed. I suppose paying with pennies isn't necessarily inconsiderate, but it's a little bit thoughtless.

 

[Ev0]

From my experience, the larger the city, the more inconsiderate people are. I used to live in Toronto, Canada's largest city. It was teeming with self-centered assholes who couldn't give a hoot about anyone other than themselves. I moved to Ottawa a few months ago, and people here are definitley nicer. People will hold doors open for eachother, regardless of whether or not they know the person, please and thank you are much more common, and drivers in general are much more courteous.

Also, is it any coincedence that Toronto is an extremely Liberal city? Despite the fact that the Liberal party has been known to do absolutely nothing for their most important area (while the city is rapidly deteriorating)? Bloddy morons...

 

[Danoff]

I thought it pretty obvious that selfishness and materialism is somewhat to blame.

Selfishness is obviously the cause, but my claim is that everyone is inherently selfish due to genetic wiring.

You CAN have cultures in big cities where people are more polite regardless of whether people know each other. Capitalism is part of the mechanations of the "self" becoming all important. Don't ever accuse me of not thinking about what I post (when I'm being serious).

Capitalism takes into account what already exists in human nature. Do you honestly think that the free market makes people more selfish than they would be otherwise? Look at other animals, besides humans. Look at how selfish other animals are in nature. That's where we came from. That's our background - kill or be killed. It's inherent in all of us.

Nothing wrong with capitalism, its the best system we've got so far, but yeah there are side-effects. I'm certain the reason you stated (for the impoliteness) is totally valid also.

I've seen you claim that selfishness is a side-effect of capitalism, but I haven't seen you show it. Large cities are no more capitalist than smaller cities - but people are generally nicer in smaller cities. Why? No more anonymity.

From my experience, the larger the city, the more inconsiderate people are.

Is it just coincidence or is there a reason why people are more inconsiderate in larger cities?

No, they dont get anything. It's just that they face consequences if they dont.

Ok, I don't want to have to be this concrete with my language when discussing such an abstract subject. For the purposes of this discussion avoiding consequences is "getting something".

 

[blargonator]

i don't really think it is genetic wiring as you put it, but i do think a lot of people are raised to be "ass-heads" now. i have two friends (they are twins) who have a friend that is more of just a kid i see sometimes than my friend. their friend/my aquaintance feels he is actually better in every way than everyone around him, he feels the need to be rude to random nice people, for example we were sitting at McDonalds eating and a kid who was probably 16 or 17 came over and said "whats up guys?" then my aquaintance said "excuse me, we don't even know you, im telling a story. GO AWAY."

normally i am a quiet person, if you cut me in line i say it's no big deal, i just have to wait a couple seconds. but lately........the crappy weather has contributed to a bad mood which has resulted in one scared darren and a pissed off emo kid.

 

[VIPFREAK]

to people who stand and have long conversations in the middle of busy grocery store aisles

Yeah, but... you know what's worse than that?? They push their carts just as baddly as they driver their snobby ass merc/bimmer.

 

[James2097]

Selfishness is obviously the cause, but my claim is that everyone is inherently selfish due to genetic wiring.

Yes, but we can pretty much ignore this 'wiring' if we have a culture whereby you are respected more for being courteous and looked down upon for being selfish - Tibetan Monks & Japanese zen buddists - a couple of good examples of cultures like this. People USED to have much better eating manners, talk politely, act gentlemanly (honour, chivalry) back in the day (despite the increase in random sword skewering... Hmm.)... For instance even in the first half of this century - compare the full on impoliteness and lack of manners we have to say, the 1950s!

Daruma (famous zen dude): "Good deeds done with selfish intention are useless for gaining enlightenment".

Picture a city (of say 400,000 people) from the 1950s. Now picture another city from 2005 with the same population. The 1950s city would still be far more polite and well mannered in general. Hence I think you can blame it on the increased self-serving mentality of modern society, not just bigger cities. Of course capitalism has fueled this change in people's outlook on life - it basically says "Its ok to listen to your animal instincts. GO get rich (or die trying :groan: )."

I think humans have the ability to rise above our base animal instincts if we grow up in the right environment (ie not concieved in the back of a pimped out gangsta hummer with spinnerz).


Here's James' prediction for the future of the world:
As the "me" generation rolls on, with materialism and personal gain continually sought at the expense of community, we'll see society become meaner and more judgemental (in regards to people's appearance, what they do etc) and people will become less individualistic and conservative until a new generation decide enough is enough and they instigate another hippy-like movement. The hippies will want everyone to love each other etc, but of course the world won't really change (because socialism doesn't work and capitalism ultimately keeps the world going round) and culture (overall) will just keep going through hippy and conservative phases as each phase can't work on its own forever without the opposite phase giving the other a kick in the pants from time to time.

Kinda like politics, where the people often decide to swap in and out of power progressive agenda governments and conservative economic managerial governments as we need community and a social conscience but also need our countries (probably talking mainly about UK, Aus and US here) to not be france.