Individualism

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Individualism is, or should be, how any free society measures its success. Individualism should result in individuality, which is more tangeable (they are not the same). Individuality is an action, a perspective. Individualism is a static idea. I think I might have found a discord between the two that I'd like to hear other opinions on. I came accross the discord when I heard a woman arguing that America "imposing democracy" on other, hitherto undemocratic nations, is "antithetical" because is contradicts self-determination. She was rebutted by the argument that, for instance, nobody in Iraq was able to exercise self-determination under the Baathist dictatorship.

When we talk (or think) about "the individual" do we not tend to be thinking of individual, embodied human beings? What happens, then, when we are talking about other countries? How does individualism/individuality fit into foriegn policy? The easy answer would be that America needs to do whatever is has to do to keep it's land free for individuality to reign (whether this is the case is debateable). But if America is to be held to it's claims of spreading freedom and democracy, it's methods, do, indeed, contradict it's stated motivation. And this is where what seem to be levels of individuality come into play.

If we see the individual as the supreme measure of value in the domestic political arena, would we have to broaden the idea of individualism when considering international issues? Would we not end up seeing the planet as a country populated by "individual" nations, all free to be democratic or not? If not, and we maintain the individual human being as the supreme measure of value in the global political arena, do nations simply dissolve into irrelevance? Do we not all become the same, no matter where we are? And if so, what flags, armies, or leaders could possibly truly serve the seven billion plus self interests at stake? Conversely, we could see groups defined by nations and political systems that are competing and working seperately for some more general self-determination in the name of it's people's perceived best interests. But this seems just as problematic, and when thought through, would tend to lead to a danger of the "common good" shadowing individual human being's right to self determination.

I hope I've presented this in a way that people can respond to, and will surely have more to add as I see what others might have to say.

Discuss.
 
Wait, so you say that individualism is good, so we should all be ourselves... Right, I agree
But then you said earlier that Moderates(Politically) should be shot because they don't side to one side of the political spectrum?
 
Originally posted by rjensen11
Wait, so you say that individualism is good, so we should all be ourselves... Right, I agree
But then you said earlier that Moderates(Politically) should be shot because they don't side to one side of the political spectrum?
What? No I didn't. I said they represent the worst both extremes have to offer and will inevitably disappoint. And even if I had said that, it wouldn't matter.

You obviously didn't read the post, either of them. Because of that, this post of yours is spam and to be disregarded. Why did this have to be the first response?
 
I like this thread almost as much as I like your Mach 1 avatar. I’ll see if I can get the ball rolling in the right direction.

I don’t necessarily agree with the woman’s belief that “America "imposing democracy" on other, hitherto undemocratic nations, is "antithetical" because is contradicts self-determination”.

In the typical situation that the woman speaks of, America removes an oppressive government which doesn’t allow citizens to determine how they are governed. By replacing the former repressive government with a Democratic system, I believe the citizens are given the best chance at individualism. In a system where the citizens rule themselves through elected representatives, they have the best chance to shape their environment into one that represents their beliefs, values, and culture.

I would argue that the phrase “imposing democracy” is antithetical. The ultimate power in a democracy rests with its citizens. Therefore, Democracy can only be self-imposed, which is oxymoronic. Democracy provides citizens with the best platform to govern themselves and allows them to decide which direction their government will take.

Milefile, you gave us a lot to discuss with this thread. 👍
 
Originally posted by milefile

You obviously didn't read the post, either of them. Because of that, this post of yours is spam and to be disregarded. Why did this have to be the first response?
Could've been worse.

Could've been me.
 
Originally posted by milefile
...You obviously didn't read the post, either of them. Because of that, this post of yours is spam and to be disregarded. Why did this have to be the first response?

Hrmm, well, I read part of it before I posted... Specifically most of the first paragraph...
 
Individualism can only be followed to an extent. As nations have boarders and self-interests that they are unlikely to give up. Whether or not it is hypocritical, any states headed toward becoming a threat is a legitimate target of persuasion/dissuasion or force in order to assuage those states concerned with the direction they are headed in. I believe it to risky, though it is preferred, to allow any state to develop as it sees fit regardless the the consequence a majority agrees would probably happen. While one can argue that impeding change can cause problems, which is true, it may be worth the risk to try to prevent an otherwise expected change if the status quo is seen as better than it.
 
Good thread, Mile. Oh, individualism is largely my basis for being pro gun. The concept of individual right to protection and to not have protection be largely in the hands of the state. A police state could aslo be called a state in which the police have become an overdependence of its people.
 
Originally posted by Talentless
Good thread, Mile. Oh, individualism is largely my basis for being pro gun. The concept of individual right to protection and to not have protection be largely in the hands of the state. A police state could aslo be called a state in which the police have become an overdependence of its people.
When I was younger and more, lets say feisty, I used to point out to people (who couldn't care less, of course) that we live in a police state all the time. We have armed officers roaming the streets with practically no accountability. To this day, I still hate cops. I hate the way they drive their fat asses around in gas guzzling cars, park in parking lots to read the paper or chit-chat with other cops, get (and expect) everything for free, and are allowed to carry guns when nobody else can. They are also notoriously uninformed and unenlightened. Anything unfamiliar, to them, is probably illegal. They have too much power and a monopoly on violence. In fact, that is my definition of police: the institutional group with a monopoly on violence. If they stuck to law enforcement it might be different. But they engage in crime prevention, which is rife with opportunities for abuse, and may be abuse in and of itself. One example that comes to mind is me telling off my neighbor (for a plethora of reasons I won't bore you with) only to have a cop tell me he would arrest me if I didn't stop. Apparently swearing is against the law. The thing I can't stand is that you have to do what they say. If you resist in any way you will simply be overpowered. The seriousness of the infraction is irrelevant. If you spit on the sidewalk and a cop tells you to stop and you keep walking, he will grab you. If you try to wriggle free he will toss you to the ground, if you continue to resist he will handcuff you. By now there will be ten cops standing there. Also by now it has nothing to do with spitting but has turned into a matter of respect and/or disrespect for the uniform, the gun, their right to coerce and overpower; the cop is pissed off and taking it out on you. They command respect because they have guns, and a monopoly on violence. If you're a young male and not a member of the John Birch Society, you are a suspect. And forget it if you're black. I know a lot of people defend cops and I can understand why. Their job is very dangerous and they work to keep bad guys away from me and my family and for that I am grateful. But when they start sticking their noses in people's business, looking for possible opportunities for a crime to occur where there is presently none, they have become a problem.

End of rant.

Look at me taking my own thread off topic! :P
 
There is also the issue if "individual state rights" in a federal system. The Bush administration uses this one whenever it is convenient. As a result they appear to be staunch defenders of local power and individuality. But when something morally offends them, such as medicinal marijuana or doctor assisted suicide, blanket federal laws abound. It's contradictory and dishonest to have it both ways.
 
Is "democracy" (or what we call democracy) the ultimate destiny of humanity? Is it righteous and good that America is "spreading freedom" and "democracy" around the world? Is it not a kind of crusade?

I can't say it's bad, and everybody else seems to to just accept it as inherently good, ipso facto. Something about is contradictory, though. I can smell it.

"Be free dammit!

Not like that...

You're doing it wrong."

*Big condescending sigh*

"I guess I have to do everything myself.

Bring in the troops!"
 
Originally posted by milefile
Is "democracy" (or what we call democracy) the ultimate destiny of humanity?

Is it righteous and good that America is "spreading freedom" and "democracy" around the world? Is it not a kind of crusade?


The term democracy is pretty broad, considering. I suppose a form of democracy would be our destiny.

And no, I dont think it's right that America is "spreading freedom",.... and yes, I agree that the attempt to do so is a "crusade",...

When I think of the term "individualism",... the first thing that comes to mind is the right to free expression. Now, we have that "right" displayed in our constitution,.. but it does absolutely no good to have that "right", but then have the gov turn on you and say is "inappropriate" to wear a KORN T-shirt to school.

I dont want to push this into the usual direction,... but, IMO, religion is the biggest opponent to individualism. Stereotyping is the major thorn in the side of individualism,... and unfortunately, the religious majority in this country are very good at doing just that.... stereotyping. :irked:
 
KORN T-shirt to school

Children don’t have all of the rights of adults, and public schools are very particular cases that can be regulated much more than the general public.


And no, I dont think it's right that America is "spreading freedom",.... and yes, I agree that the attempt to do so is a "crusade",...

Please justify this statement.

The Bush administration uses this one whenever it is convenient. As a result they appear to be staunch defenders of local power and individuality. But when something morally offends them, such as medicinal marijuana or doctor assisted suicide, blanket federal laws abound. It's contradictory and dishonest to have it both ways.

Yup. By contrast, the Clinton administration would tell you that you have the right to be a military officer if you are gay and that you are free citizen and entitled to your freedoms and blah blah blah… oh yea… we want 40% of your income to distribute as we see fit. Thanks.

Both sides of the political spectrum are hypocritical about individual freedoms. That’s why the Libertarian party is the best. :)

I like the idea behind this thread.


Freedom => Democracy

Because of that, if people are to be truly free they must first have a democracy. I think what’s really at issue is do we have a right to go around freeing people? The answer to that one is yes - because governments don’t get the same rights as individuals. Governments are (or at least should be) very tightly regulated and controlled by the people. Not the other way around.

Since governments don’t get the same rights that people do, it is not infringing on rights if governments are forcibly removed (unless it costs the citizens money or lives… which is always). It’s a sticky situation because you have to decide whether the majority of the people within the country want to be freed. That’s a hard thing to do. So I’m glad that we didn’t try to justify the current war in Iraq solely on the basis of freeing the people within.

Governments get attacked when they break the restrictions placed on them by other governments. In the case of the war in Iraq it was a handful of people getting attacked for breaking the restriction placed on them by many of the citizens of the countries in the United Nations.

If any government told us not to do something and we did it, they could justify (to their people) a war with us. Of course, they would lose.
 
Originally posted by danoff
Children don’t have all of the rights of adults, and public schools are very particular cases that can be regulated much more than the general public.

So your saying children dont have the right to freely express there personal beliefs in a public facility? Since when did the constitution state that you need to be a certain age to display your freedom of expression?

Originally posted by danoff

Please justify this statement. = quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And no, I dont think it's right that America is "spreading freedom",.... and yes, I agree that the attempt to do so is a "crusade",...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


You should well know,... if I can assume your libertarian,... what my justification for that statement is ;)


Originally posted by danoff


Freedom => Democracy

Because of that, if people are to be truly free they must first have a democracy. I think what’s really at issue is do we have a right to go around freeing people? The answer to that one is yes - because governments don’t get the same rights as individuals. Governments are (or at least should be) very tightly regulated and controlled by the people. Not the other way around.

Since governments don’t get the same rights that people do, it is not infringing on rights if governments are forcibly removed (unless it costs the citizens money or lives… which is always). It’s a sticky situation because you have to decide whether the majority of the people within the country want to be freed. That’s a hard thing to do. So I’m glad that we didn’t try to justify the current war in Iraq solely on the basis of freeing the people within.

Governments get attacked when they break the restrictions placed on them by other governments. In the case of the war in Iraq it was a handful of people getting attacked for breaking the restriction placed on them by many of the citizens of the countries in the United Nations.

If any government told us not to do something and we did it, they could justify (to their people) a war with us. Of course, they would lose.

I think we agree once this is all put into perspective. Your saying that it's OK for the INDIVIDUAL to help free people, but not the GOV... correct?

Well,... though I wasnt as specific,... the individual part specifically,... I was hinting at the same notion,... that the GOV shouldn't be "freeing" other countries. If John Smith down the street wants to go to some 3rd world country to try and rid them of the sins,.. more power to him,... I'd rather stay home and assist my fellow countrymen in defending this continent and this continent only.
 
So your saying children dont have the right to freely express there personal beliefs in a public facility? Since when did the constitution state that you need to be a certain age to display your freedom of expression?

Do you think that children have a right to wear whatever shirt they want to school? Do they have a right to buy alcohol? Get married? Serve in the military? Have a job? Not below a certain age.

You should well know,... if I can assume your libertarian,... what my justification for that statement is

I haven’t figured it out.

Your saying that it's OK for the INDIVIDUAL to help free people, but not the GOV... correct?

No.

I’m saying that governments don’t have a right to oppress people.

On another note, even though I said that we have a right to free people (which I agree is a nasty controversial highly debatable statement), I do not think we have an obligation to free people, because it costs us quite a bit in terms of lives and money.
 
Originally posted by danoff
Do you think that children have a right to wear whatever shirt they want to school? Do they have a right to buy alcohol? Get married? Serve in the military? Have a job? Not below a certain age.

Dont their parents have a right to dress them anyway they choose then?

What age do I have to be,.. to have the right to dress myself? :rolleyes:
 
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And no, I dont think it's right that America is "spreading freedom",.... and yes, I agree that the attempt to do so is a "crusade",...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Please justify this statement.


---------------------------------------------------------

The President said so himself on 9/12/01,... in fact,.. he specifically enphisized the word "crusade (sp?)".
 
The President said so himself on 9/12/01,... in fact,.. he specifically enphisized the word "crusade (sp?)".

Do you agree with the president? If so, why?

Saying that someone else said it is not necessarily justification for the statement. I would like to know specifically why you do not think it is right for America to "spread freedom". And why you think that an attempt to do so is a crusade.
 
do parents have the right to dress their children as they please?

Originally posted by danoff
Sounds like we need a separate thread for this subject.



The reason I bring this up is because I'm in an extremely conservitive part of the country. 7 years ago, when I was a senior,... 10 miles down the road at Zeeland high school,... a stundent was expelled for wearing a "KORN" t-shirt. It had NO profanity or graphics,... only the word KORN....................... he was denied the right to a public education,... and 18 year old adult responsible for himself,.... because of a word on a t-shirt.

It made national headlines,.. you may remember it......
 
The Korn T-shirt is more about power than it is individuality. Highschools have pulled stunts like this for a long time, only now it is somehow news-worthy. I, for one, couldn't care less. There are private schools if you have such a big problem with your local public highschool. They have rules, too.

But sticking with the clothing theme...

I have noticed over the years that those who go to the greatest lengths to advertize their individuality inevitably have the least of it, and what little they do have is manifest in insecurities and a desperate need to conform. The most interesting and unique people I know are rather unremarkable in appearance. I attribute this to a confidence that only individuality can engender, a confidence that eliminates the need to prove anything to anyone. You don't have to be or look "cool" to be an individual. You don't even need to be smart.
 
Originally posted by milefile
I have noticed over the years that those who go to the greatest lengths to advertize their individuality inevitably have the least of it, and what little they do have is manifest in insecurities and a desperate need to conform.
Hammer, nail. *wham!*

You got it right on. Most of the kids who just have to stress their individuality are as bland as uncooked Tofu, and just as competent too.
 
Originally posted by milefile

I have noticed over the years that those who go to the greatest lengths to advertize their individuality inevitably have the least of it, and what little they do have is manifest in insecurities and a desperate need to conform. The most interesting and unique people I know are rather unremarkable in appearance. I attribute this to a confidence that only individuality can engender, a confidence that eliminates the need to prove anything to anyone. You don't have to be or look "cool" to be an individual. You don't even need to be smart.


Sorry, but IMO, it's attitudes like that that push these kids to the edge, example: Colombine.........

These kids get harassed and even beat-up on a daily basis,... how do you expect them to develop confience when their in that type of enviornemt? Believe me, it's not about being "cool",.... it's about making a statement to the people you feel threatened by, AND, expressing yor freedom to personal expression.

Lemme put in into a perspective that may be a little more genrationally specific.

When you guy's (those in 30's) went to school,... many of the "trouble makers", stereotypically, wore jean jackets and holy(sp?) jeans. BUT, when they decided to start sewing band names on the jackets, then they were the real rebels :rolleyes:

Now, that group has split in two,... one group is still the same: loud mouthed and will probably try and steal your lunch money,... the other group is these new guy's who basically (not on their own accord obviously, but just through transistion of generation) exiled from them because of whatever reason; maybe they dont have the hard ass attitude, or maybe this or maybe that,... the point being is that these kids are expressing themselves in a completely appropriate fashion when you look at it from the inside.

There are private schools if you have such a big problem with your local public highschool. They have rules, too.

How about telling that to the rich ass-holes who petition the school's to have these f-d up relgulations envolked,... instead of the people trying their hardest to get by without getting crusified for everything the say or wear?
 
Originally posted by Sage
Hammer, nail. *wham!*

You got it right on. Most of the kids who just have to stress their individuality are as bland as uncooked Tofu, and just as competent too.


Am I so bland?


It's it that easy for your concience to just roll over and let your stereotypical views overide your compassion for others?
 
Wearing different clothes was never enough to make a person cool when I went to school. You had to actually be cool. You had to buck authority at every step. You had to not care about the consequences of your actions. You had to get low grades, but insist that it was because you didn’t try. You had to do drugs, drink alcohol, and show as little respect for anyone and anything as possible.

It’s that kind of remarkably idiotic behavior that made people cool when I went to school. Nerds like me tried to wear cool clothes to no avail… because we didn’t realize that it wasn’t the clothes - but the attitude.

Regulating clothing in schools won’t cause anyone to get beat up, and it won’t cause anyone to become socialist. It’s just a way of equally telling everyone that public schools are supposed to be a place for learning… they can wear their distracting obnoxious clothing at home.

Regulating clothing in general public places is supressing freedom of speech.
 
Originally posted by danoff
Wearing different clothes was never enough to make a person cool when I went to school. You had to actually be cool. You had to buck authority at every step. You had to not care about the consequences of your actions. You had to get low grades, but insist that it was because you didn’t try. You had to do drugs, drink alcohol, and show as little respect for anyone and anything as possible.

It’s that kind of remarkably idiotic behavior that made people cool when I went to school. Nerds like me tried to wear cool clothes to no avail… because we didn’t realize that it wasn’t the clothes - but the attitude.

Regulating clothing in schools won’t cause anyone to get beat up, and it won’t cause anyone to become socialist. It’s just a way of equally telling everyone that public schools are supposed to be a place for learning… they can wear their distracting obnoxious clothing at home.

Regulating clothing in general public places is supressing freedom of speech.

Then it sounds as if the only solution is a no-words-on-clothes-dress-code.... cause I'm just as offended when I have to sit at a desk and stare at teh back of a shirt with a big golden cross and the word "JESUS" sprawled across it on 60 size font :irked:

"But nooooooooooooooooooooo",... Jesus is "acceptable" in our public schools :rolleyes:
 
Originally posted by Red Eye Racer
Sorry, but IMO, it's attitudes like that that push these kids to the edge, example: Colombine.........

These kids get harassed and even beat-up on a daily basis,... how do you expect them to develop confience when their in that type of enviornemt? Believe me, it's not about being "cool",.... it's about making a statement to the people you feel threatened by, AND, expressing yor freedom to personal expression.

Lemme put in into a perspective that may be a little more genrationally specific.

When you guy's (those in 30's) went to school,... many of the "trouble makers", stereotypically, wore jean jackets and holy(sp?) jeans. BUT, when they decided to start sewing band names on the jackets, then they were the real rebels :rolleyes:

Now, that group has split in two,... one group is still the same: loud mouthed and will probably try and steal your lunch money,... the other group is these new guy's who basically (not on their own accord obviously, but just through transistion of generation) exiled from them because of whatever reason; maybe they dont have the hard ass attitude, or maybe this or maybe that,... the point being is that these kids are expressing themselves in a completely appropriate fashion when you look at it from the inside.



How about telling that to the rich ass-holes who petition the school's to have these f-d up relgulations envolked,... instead of the people trying their hardest to get by without getting crusified for everything the say or wear?

I had this long post written and I changed my mind. The fact that you say this comment:

I have noticed over the years that those who go to the greatest lengths to advertize their individuality inevitably have the least of it, and what little they do have is manifest in insecurities and a desperate need to conform. The most interesting and unique people I know are rather unremarkable in appearance. I attribute this to a confidence that only individuality can engender, a confidence that eliminates the need to prove anything to anyone. You don't have to be or look "cool" to be an individual. You don't even need to be smart.

pushes kids to the edge is beyond me. It is the most acute case of liberalism (the morality of pity) run amuck I've ever heard. Do you realize you are tossing aside character and inner strength to justify a mass murder? Yes RER. Everything has a cause. So what. Society places expectations on all of us. Everybody struggles. Those who have more than a Korn shirt to ground them make it just fine.
 
Originally posted by milefile

pushes kids to the edge is beyond me. It is the most acute case of liberalism (the morality of pity) run amuck I've ever heard. Do you realize you are tossing aside character and inner strength to justify a mass murder? Yes RER. Everything has a cause. So what. Society places expectations on all of us. Everybody struggles. Those who have more than a Korn shirt to ground them make it just fine.

What does that mean? That the recent (last 5 years) shootings at schools are done by the "goth" majority becasue of coincidence?
 
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