Intercooler on a N/A car. (HA!)
- Thread starter Greyout
- 44 comments
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PhatFat
But since intercoolers cannot reduce air temperatures below that of ambient air (without the aid of ice, nitrous, etc. anyway) they are useless on an N/A car as the restriction they add would be greater than any gains from temperature reduction.
Sounds to me like it is just a bug they overlooked on a few cars.
The IC(s) in GT4 are two different ones. One is smaller which cools down the turbo down but is limited due to the amount of air that is let in, the other which is bigger take in more air which will increase HP... remember most real racers/street racers like racing in winter time... (no snow) some others at a track put bags of ice on their turbo's or intakes or IC's to gain a little more power before a race. I really don't see the need for a IC in an N/A setup... unless the S4 has a stock turbo which I'm sure they don't bring one stock. So in real life the IC that would be added to a S4 would be useless...
Turbo = sucks in air - Needs a IC
SC = Blows out air - Doesnt
Turbo = sucks in air - Needs a IC
SC = Blows out air - Doesnt
If its factory then there is factory piping that makes the IC useful... but If I buy a IC for my 97 Altima there is no point for it since the piping I'd buy would be for a turbo... and if there is no turbo present then it'll be a FMI with no purpose lol... it'll be for show than for go lol
- 38
Maybe they got it confused with the other S4, the 2.7 twin turbo?
- 24,344
- Midlantic Area
- GTP_Duke
There is a possibility that you might run the intake through an air-to-air intercooler in order to combat heat soak in a tight engine bay, but it's not common in my knowledge. But it should theoretically be possible.
Are you sure it's the newer V8 S4, and not the older turbo 6?
Are you sure it's the newer V8 S4, and not the older turbo 6?
uhhh??? Turbocharger and superchargers basically do the same thing. How they power the compressor is how they differentiate. Many modern supercharger kits these days do include intercoolers, or their "stage II" supercharger will include one. Both compress air, which heats it up, so both benefit from an intercooler.
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That is not true... they both compress air and "ram" it into the engine. When air is compressed the molecules get packed together and create friction, which also creates heat. Intercoolers are used to take this heat away so the air is more dense. Superchargers benefit just as much from an intercooler as a turbo.
- 21
kem
You are right, both systems pressurize the intake charge so it's all the same to the intake manifold. Anytime you increase the pressure of the intake you heat the air, hence the intercooler. Sometimes the intercooler on a supercharger system is called an aftercooler, but they are all just heat exchangers between the compressor and engine.
And to Duke: Like you said, you could put a heat exchanger anywhere, but since you are not restricted in terms of placement and piping, as w/ a compressor, you might as well put the actual air intake whereever you would have put the intercooler, not to mention the extra length of piping you need. The exception to this would be with water-to-air (or another non-air cooled exchanger) where you could actually drop the temp. of the intake charge below that of the ambient temp. But like you said this is not commonly done for various reasons.
- 297
- GTP_BonzoHarry
-a supercharger most definitly sucks in air. The reason a supercharger doesnt recieve an intercooler is because they are front mounted behind the radiator and in front of the block (or on mini's on top) and are not as prone to heat soak as a turbo would be. Plus a s/c isnt driven by incredably hot gases.
-and the old s4's were inline 6 bi-(faulty)turbos.
-intercoolers cool air from the intake.
-oil coolers cool oil. (oil feed and return lines on the same side in an oil cooler.)
-and the old s4's were inline 6 bi-(faulty)turbos.
-intercoolers cool air from the intake.
-oil coolers cool oil. (oil feed and return lines on the same side in an oil cooler.)
194GVan
Premium
- 1,656
- Gainesville VA
- retrohoon
- ratr0
The purpose of an intercooler as you all know is to cool the air temperature, so it can be beneficial to an NA engine just like a cold air intake, and it is NOT required to have a super/turbo charger to use one.
If you take an intercooler, and just blow into one side and hold your hand over the other side, you will feel the air blowing out, so there is not THAT much resistance.
This isnt necessarily true. Unless you have some sort or Ram Air or Cold Air intake system, an Intercooler could be beneficial. Its basically dependent on where your car draws its air in. An intercooler WILL cool the air due to the wind flowing through it at the front of the car. Take for example cold days with windchill. Sure a thermometer may read 40 degrees outside, but if there is a nasty windchill, the intercooler will make the air colder than 40 degrees.
Yes there may be more resistance due to the additional piping, but i would not go so far as to say it would always have a negative effect on power.
And someone mentioned it would be pointless to get an intercooler kit for their Altima? yes if you dont have a turbo i guess it would be pointless, but that doesnt mean it cant be done. thats custom work
If you take an intercooler, and just blow into one side and hold your hand over the other side, you will feel the air blowing out, so there is not THAT much resistance.
This isnt necessarily true. Unless you have some sort or Ram Air or Cold Air intake system, an Intercooler could be beneficial. Its basically dependent on where your car draws its air in. An intercooler WILL cool the air due to the wind flowing through it at the front of the car. Take for example cold days with windchill. Sure a thermometer may read 40 degrees outside, but if there is a nasty windchill, the intercooler will make the air colder than 40 degrees.
Yes there may be more resistance due to the additional piping, but i would not go so far as to say it would always have a negative effect on power.
And someone mentioned it would be pointless to get an intercooler kit for their Altima? yes if you dont have a turbo i guess it would be pointless, but that doesnt mean it cant be done. thats custom work
- 3,052
BonzoHarry
The 2nd generation Audi S4 has a twin-turbo V6 engine, not an inline 6 engine.
Also, I'm sure the whole intercooler thing is a bug. I'm surprised that slipped by quality control.
- 489
"The purpose of an intercooler as you all know is to cool the air temperature, so it can be beneficial to an NA engine just like a cold air intake, and it is NOT required to have a super/turbo charger to use one."
Not so dude. An intercooler on an N/A is just extra weight, if you want a cooler intake charge on an N/A you just add a collector to the intake manifold and plumb it somewhere so that it can pick up ambient air. My adage is; if it's not used in racing, it doesn't belong on my car. Show me some race cars that are N/A and use intercoolers, then I'll change my story.
Not so dude. An intercooler on an N/A is just extra weight, if you want a cooler intake charge on an N/A you just add a collector to the intake manifold and plumb it somewhere so that it can pick up ambient air. My adage is; if it's not used in racing, it doesn't belong on my car. Show me some race cars that are N/A and use intercoolers, then I'll change my story.
- 11
d3p0
I agree with you completely. That's why my car has no AC, no heater, no carpet, no sound deadening, no rear seats, no interior paneling, etc. It's all just extra weight.
And yes I'm serious...
- 21
BonzoHarry
Actually a supercharger doesn't have a set mounting place, depending on the type of blower (roots, centrifugal, etc.) the mounting point can be changed. *Most* roots-type are mounted on top of or near the intake manifold, so where ever the manifold is located thats where the blower will be located, front or back of the engine bay. And a centrifugal system can be mounted differently depending on the set-up, and can be mounted very far away from the pulley with the use of a prop shaft. And anytime you pressurize the intake charge, it heats the air, therefore an intercooler is still effective on a supercharged engine.
- 21
slowegxxrevolt
Gutted street cars, especially dailys. 👍
- 112
Most the heat that is added to the air coming out of a supercharger or turbo is from basic laws of physics, NOT from heat soak.
It's as simple as Pv=nRT With a control volume if your compress the air it HAS to heat up. Add to that the fact that turbos and SC's are at best 80% efficient you can be adding a lot of heat. That heat will cause detonation and engine damage if it is not removed.
Many v8 with superchargers don't but out that high boost and go without the IC but I would never do this, as stated above you can get intercoolers or aftercoolers for SC setups.
Here is a good website where you can input inlet temp, turbo efficiency, etc. and get out you outlet temp.
http://www.stealth316.com/2-turbotemp.htm
It's as simple as Pv=nRT With a control volume if your compress the air it HAS to heat up. Add to that the fact that turbos and SC's are at best 80% efficient you can be adding a lot of heat. That heat will cause detonation and engine damage if it is not removed.
Many v8 with superchargers don't but out that high boost and go without the IC but I would never do this, as stated above you can get intercoolers or aftercoolers for SC setups.
Here is a good website where you can input inlet temp, turbo efficiency, etc. and get out you outlet temp.
http://www.stealth316.com/2-turbotemp.htm
- 297
- GTP_BonzoHarry
yea, the charger placement can vary, i was imagining my engine when i was typing, in which case it would go behind the radiator / infront of block. And the inline 6 was a mistake too, i was in a hurry to make a 3:40 deadline, and i had like 2 minutes. I standby my reasoning for the charger however.
Yea, my car too, i pulled the seats and recarpted the back to remove the dip where they went, pulled the speakers and radio, and added oil temp/pressure and volt gauges in the headunits place. What's a/c
, windows down is the way to be, we invented jackets and gloves for a reason so lets use them.
Yea, my car too, i pulled the seats and recarpted the back to remove the dip where they went, pulled the speakers and radio, and added oil temp/pressure and volt gauges in the headunits place. What's a/c
, windows down is the way to be, we invented jackets and gloves for a reason so lets use them.Adding an intercooler to a naturally aspirated engine would make it loose power, that is if you even got it running.
As you all know when compressed air flows from the super/turbocharger through the intercooler the pressure drops significantly. N/A engines don't compress the incoming air, so the pressure drop would almost starve the engine of oxygen, completely. What's the benifit of lowering the air temperature if there's not enough of it getting to the engine in first place?!
BTW I have never....EVER....herd of any NA engine, at all, that is equipped with an intercooler! I would pay good money to see someone attempt this and make it work.
As you all know when compressed air flows from the super/turbocharger through the intercooler the pressure drops significantly. N/A engines don't compress the incoming air, so the pressure drop would almost starve the engine of oxygen, completely. What's the benifit of lowering the air temperature if there's not enough of it getting to the engine in first place?!
BTW I have never....EVER....herd of any NA engine, at all, that is equipped with an intercooler! I would pay good money to see someone attempt this and make it work.
I can't see an intercooler working on a NA car unless the NA car has some serious design bugs. These would include anything that would raise the intake air temperature by +20-30 degrees or so. In which case, the designers of the car should be looking at their air intake, rather than putting more extra plumbing on their intake tubing. Stooooopid. 
Attention: n00bs
If you don't have an understanding of how boost works, I highly suggest that you don't attempt going about "informing" others of how it works
I would like to direct your attention to the following resources:
Maximum Boost, by Corky Bell This is hands down the best book I have read with regard to forced induction.
Supercharged! by Corky Bell This is another great book, but has a lot of redundant information from the previous book.
How Stuff Works, "How Turbochargers Work", with special note to the Intercooler section.
There is NO benefit to an intercooler on an N/A application. It will NOT reduce heat soak. It WILL create a HUGE intake restriction, and will cause you to LOSE power. With that said, if GT4 allows you to add an intercooler to an N/A car, it is a glitch (or perhaps you are mistaking a boosted car for N/A).
If you want to be really nit-picky, "intercoolers" as we know it is a misnomer. In reality, they are "after coolers," as their purpose is to reduce the temperature of the CHARGE PIPE (AKA, AFTER the turbo / supercharger). True "intercoolers" were used primarilly with WWII fighter aircraft, which commonly used a twin-in-line turbo configuration, with an "INTERcooler" placed BEWTWEEN the two turbos (between .... inter ... get it?). We can thank Volvo for labeling their AFTERcooled turbo cars "Intercooled," thus popularizing the misnomer.
A turbo does not suck air.
A supercharger does not suck air.
Putting ice on turbos / etc at the track is not done to "gain power," it is done to alleviate heat soak in between runs. This is also somewhat dangerous and controversial because you can end up cracking metal parts due to rapid expanding from heat followed by rapid contraction with cooling.
An exception to this is "one-shot" air-to-water intercoolers where some will actually use water / ice / dry ice boxes which help reduce the temp of the charge pipe. This type of intercooler is not modeled in GT4 (based on the two drawing of intercoolers in the parts shop, LOL).
Both turbos and superchargers CAN make use of an intercooler. Neither REQUIRES one. If you want to know HOW and WHY, I suggest picking up one of the books mentioned above.
Cliff's Notes: Check out the above links/books and may the knowledge of boost be with you
-a
If you don't have an understanding of how boost works, I highly suggest that you don't attempt going about "informing" others of how it works
I would like to direct your attention to the following resources:
Maximum Boost, by Corky Bell This is hands down the best book I have read with regard to forced induction.
Supercharged! by Corky Bell This is another great book, but has a lot of redundant information from the previous book.
How Stuff Works, "How Turbochargers Work", with special note to the Intercooler section.
There is NO benefit to an intercooler on an N/A application. It will NOT reduce heat soak. It WILL create a HUGE intake restriction, and will cause you to LOSE power. With that said, if GT4 allows you to add an intercooler to an N/A car, it is a glitch (or perhaps you are mistaking a boosted car for N/A).
If you want to be really nit-picky, "intercoolers" as we know it is a misnomer. In reality, they are "after coolers," as their purpose is to reduce the temperature of the CHARGE PIPE (AKA, AFTER the turbo / supercharger). True "intercoolers" were used primarilly with WWII fighter aircraft, which commonly used a twin-in-line turbo configuration, with an "INTERcooler" placed BEWTWEEN the two turbos (between .... inter ... get it?). We can thank Volvo for labeling their AFTERcooled turbo cars "Intercooled," thus popularizing the misnomer.
A turbo does not suck air.
A supercharger does not suck air.
Putting ice on turbos / etc at the track is not done to "gain power," it is done to alleviate heat soak in between runs. This is also somewhat dangerous and controversial because you can end up cracking metal parts due to rapid expanding from heat followed by rapid contraction with cooling.
An exception to this is "one-shot" air-to-water intercoolers where some will actually use water / ice / dry ice boxes which help reduce the temp of the charge pipe. This type of intercooler is not modeled in GT4 (based on the two drawing of intercoolers in the parts shop, LOL).
Both turbos and superchargers CAN make use of an intercooler. Neither REQUIRES one. If you want to know HOW and WHY, I suggest picking up one of the books mentioned above.
Cliff's Notes: Check out the above links/books and may the knowledge of boost be with you
-a
"PV=nRT", haha, that's chemistry terminology, i dont think ive seen that since high school. i guess it's easier than explaining to people what specific volume is or something. anyways, i have nothing good to contribute to this thread it's obviously a glitch, i never even knew the s4 came with a v8, the only one ive ever seen is twin-turboed.
"Most the heat that is added to the air coming out of a supercharger or turbo is from basic laws of physics, NOT from heat soak."
Ugh ... turbos are powered through exhaust gases. Thus, the air coming out of the turbo is hot because it is exhaust gas. Then the hot air flows into the intercooler to cool the air before re-entering the intake stream.
"A supercharger does not suck air."
Unlike a turbo, a supercharger is belt driven. It is not powered by exhaust gases and thus without some type of intake into the supercharger, where is the air, that will become boost, come from?
Tomado
Ugh ... turbos are powered through exhaust gases. Thus, the air coming out of the turbo is hot because it is exhaust gas. Then the hot air flows into the intercooler to cool the air before re-entering the intake stream.
"A supercharger does not suck air."
Unlike a turbo, a supercharger is belt driven. It is not powered by exhaust gases and thus without some type of intake into the supercharger, where is the air, that will become boost, come from?
Tomado
- 11
Tomado
please refer to above link to howstuffworks and try to understand why you are wrong...
everything said in HoWheels post is correct this should be the end of this argument at least until everyone follows that link...
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