Is F1 still the pinnacle of motorsport? Was it ever?

[kjeldsen]

Just a quick poll since it seems that the majority of F1 fans (sample size of 2) I come across believe that it is the pinnacle of motorsport with better drivers, cars, racing, engineering, etc.

I personally believe F1 is just the series at the top of the Formula ladder and nothing else. In my eyes, it is impossible to directly compare F1 to another series like WRC/X, MotoGP or LMH/DPi. Maybe more of a Pinnacle of "X" thing for each series and checking to see which ticks the most boxes.

The best drivers in the world are in F1, the drivers that didn't make the cut drives the other cars.
The best everything else that works on the cars, engineers, mechanics etc etc are in F1
The development of F1 cars technology and speed is second to none just as the budgets.

Is it the pinnacle of racing, not necessarily, but it is absolutely the pinnacle of motorsport, nothing comes close.

 

[MatskiMonk]

The best drivers in the world are in F1, the drivers that didn't make the cut drives the other cars.

The best F1 drivers in the world are certainly in F1, I'll give you that... Even ignoring the pay drivers that aren't in the sport based on talent, you can't ignore the fact that outside of their own discipline, they are generally not the best.

Hamilton - 7 F1 WDC's: Championships in 4 Open wheel categories, Formula Renault, F3, GP2, F1. No wins or titles in any other discipline than open wheel.
Vettel - 4 F1 WDC's: Formula BMW Champion, F1 champion. No wins or titles in any other discipline than open wheel.
Alonso - 2 F1 WDC's: Euro Open Champion, F1 champion. Has WEC and LM24 wins, has Daytona 24 hour win.
Rosberg - 1 F1 WDC: Formula BMW, GP2, F1.
Button - 1 F1 WDC: Formula Ford, F1. Super GT Champion.
Verstappen - 1 F1 WDC: F1.
Kimi - 1 F1 WDC: Formula Renault, F1.
Schumacher - 7 F1 WDC's: Formula Koenig, F3, F1.
Mika - 2 F1 WDC's: Formula Ford, F3, F1.
Villeneuve Jnr - 1 F1 WDC: CART Champion, F1 champion.

Hill, Prost, Mansell, Senna... between them it was only Mansell that got another real accolade as an IndyCar champ.

... so out of 35 of the most recent F1 driver titles (the supposed best of the supposed pinnacle), they've racked up the stunning total of 1 WEC title, 1 Le Mans win, 1 Rolex 24 win, 2 IndyCar/CART titles and 1 Super GT title - that's despite those same drivers having competed in GT racing, NASCAR, IndyCar, WRC, DTM, Dakar and Formula E, Stock Car Brasil and BTCC.

I'm certainly not suggesting that any of the above listed drivers aren't immensely skilled drivers. But their skill sets, clearly honed by their career path to be the best in F1, only really allow them to be the best in F1.

Off the top of my head, someone like Sebastian Loeb, dominant in his specialist field NINE championship wins in WRC, 16 Dakar stage wins, 6 WTCC race wins, 4 FIA GT wins, a P2 in LMP1 (against the might of the Audi juggernaut, rather than with the aid of Toyotas lack of competition <cough>Fernando<cough>).

The TL;DR is that claiming F1 drivers are the best relies on you believing F1 is the pinnacle to begin with.

The development of F1 cars technology and speed is second to none just as the budgets.

It's a restrictive Formula that literally penalizes innovation. F1 is the pinnacle of exploiting loopholes, but it's a wasteland when it comes to genuine experimentation - which is understandable - it's a Formula series... it's literally Formulaic... compared to that of Sports Cars, that are literally prototypes that are allowed to experiment.

Is it the pinnacle of racing, not necessarily, but it is absolutely the pinnacle of motorsport, nothing comes close.

It's the pinnacle of a career that starts with Karting, goes to a manufacturer sponsored Formula series, to F3, to F2, and to F1.

It's $2.9 billion in debt, and its blue ribband event is a joke, even amongst its fans. It's risen to prominence thanks to careful, unscrupulous management of an evil-dwarf that would "take a bullet" for Vladimir Putin. Claiming F1 is the pinnacle of motorsport is like saying Donald Trump was the pinnacle of the American people during his presidency - you could make an argument for it, but any sense-check renders it an offensively stupid position to hold.

I doubt Rossi would trade in 7 MotoGP titles for an F1 drive, I doubt Jimmie Johnson would trade in 7 NASCAR Cup titles for an F1 drive, I doubt Seb Loeb would trade in 9 WRC titles for an F1 drive, I doubt Tom Kristensen would trade in 9 Le Mans wins for an F1 drive, I doubt Scott Dixon would trade in 6 IndyCar titles for an F1 drive and I doubt Stephane Peterhansel would trade 14 Dakar wins for an F1 career.

Ultimately, I agree with @Liquid, it's a general category, and the disciplines within it, are not directly comparable.

 

[Dotini]

There was an era between the early 50's and the mid 70's when sports cars and Indy cars were generally faster than F1 cars due to very restrictive engine regulations in F1.

See all the legends of the era—Clark, Foyt, Gurney, and more—and their amazing race cars in this beautiful color film of the 1963 LA Times Grand Prix.

 

[kjeldsen]

The best F1 drivers in the world are certainly in F1, I'll give you that... Even ignoring the pay drivers that aren't in the sport based on talent, you can't ignore the fact that outside of their own discipline, they are generally not the best.

Hamilton - 7 F1 WDC's: Championships in 4 Open wheel categories, Formula Renault, F3, GP2, F1. No wins or titles in any other discipline than open wheel.
Vettel - 4 F1 WDC's: Formula BMW Champion, F1 champion. No wins or titles in any other discipline than open wheel.
Alonso - 2 F1 WDC's: Euro Open Champion, F1 champion. Has WEC and LM24 wins, has Daytona 24 hour win.
Rosberg - 1 F1 WDC: Formula BMW, GP2, F1.
Button - 1 F1 WDC: Formula Ford, F1. Super GT Champion.
Verstappen - 1 F1 WDC: F1.
Kimi - 1 F1 WDC: Formula Renault, F1.
Schumacher - 7 F1 WDC's: Formula Koenig, F3, F1.
Mika - 2 F1 WDC's: Formula Ford, F3, F1.
Villeneuve Jnr - 1 F1 WDC: CART Champion, F1 champion.

Hill, Prost, Mansell, Senna... between them it was only Mansell that got another real accolade as an IndyCar champ.

... so out of 35 of the most recent F1 driver titles (the supposed best of the supposed pinnacle), they've racked up the stunning total of 1 WEC title, 1 Le Mans win, 1 Rolex 24 win, 2 IndyCar/CART titles and 1 Super GT title - that's despite those same drivers having competed in GT racing, NASCAR, IndyCar, WRC, DTM, Dakar and Formula E, Stock Car Brasil and BTCC.

I'm certainly not suggesting that any of the above listed drivers aren't immensely skilled drivers. But their skill sets, clearly honed by their career path to be the best in F1, only really allow them to be the best in F1.

Off the top of my head, someone like Sebastian Loeb, dominant in his specialist field NINE championship wins in WRC, 16 Dakar stage wins, 6 WTCC race wins, 4 FIA GT wins, a P2 in LMP1 (against the might of the Audi juggernaut, rather than with the aid of Toyotas lack of competition <cough>Fernando<cough>).

The TL;DR is that claiming F1 drivers are the best relies on you believing F1 is the pinnacle to begin with.



It's a restrictive Formula that literally penalizes innovation. F1 is the pinnacle of exploiting loopholes, but it's a wasteland when it comes to genuine experimentation - which is understandable - it's a Formula series... it's literally Formulaic... compared to that of Sports Cars, that are literally prototypes that are allowed to experiment.




It's the pinnacle of a career that starts with Karting, goes to a manufacturer sponsored Formula series, to F3, to F2, and to F1.

It's $2.9 billion in debt, and its blue ribband event is a joke, even amongst its fans. It's risen to prominence thanks to careful, unscrupulous management of an evil-dwarf that would "take a bullet" for Vladimir Putin. Claiming F1 is the pinnacle of motorsport is like saying Donald Trump was the pinnacle of the American people during his presidency - you could make an argument for it, but any sense-check renders it an offensively stupid position to hold.

I doubt Rossi would trade in 7 MotoGP titles for an F1 drive, I doubt Jimmie Johnson would trade in 7 NASCAR Cup titles for an F1 drive, I doubt Seb Loeb would trade in 9 WRC titles for an F1 drive, I doubt Tom Kristensen would trade in 9 Le Mans wins for an F1 drive, I doubt Scott Dixon would trade in 6 IndyCar titles for an F1 drive and I doubt Stephane Peterhansel would trade 14 Dakar wins for an F1 career.

Ultimately, I agree with @Liquid, it's a general category, and the disciplines within it, are not directly comparable.

You will find very few F1 championship winners trying to win something else because as the saying goes, they are already the best so why even bother.
However the other way is different, countless champions from all kinds of racing have tried and failed hard in F1 because it's the hardest championship to win.
The F1 champion is the GOAT and is without a doubt the hardest title of them all to achieve.

Your rant about F1 restrictive F1 rules is the same for every class there is out there, the difference is that all the best engineers are working on those loopholes in F1 and not Nascar.

Tom Kristensen wanted to become a F1 driver it just never worked out because he wasn't good enough and needed money to get the drive, and when he was outclassed by Jan Magnussen i guess it was game over.

And i bet you, everyone you mention would rather have become a F1 champion than whatever other class they won.

F1 is the pinnacle motorsport.

 

[Grand Prix]

@MatskiMonk Someone's grumpy.

Pretty sure no one here likes Bernie Ecclestone, and the current performance of F1 cars came about during Liberty's ownership, which is a bit besides the point, since it is the governing body that made them that way. What Bernie started is expanding the calendar to include countries that had very little interest in the sport to begin with, and taking their money to host a GP. There is also a ridiculous standard for F1 circuits, specifically their facilities, which also plays a part in the extremely high ticket prices, along with the hosting fees.

I would be happy to see F1 race on several existing American road circuits in their current layouts; circuit facility standards could be relaxed a bit. I'd also take the wings off the cars, I'm a bit crazy that way. I've said already, F1 does not need to be the pinnacle.

The FIA could make the top class WEC sports cars faster than F1 and that would be enough for WEC to be the pinnacle in my eyes. Sports car racing is the core of motorsport in my view, and some of the most famous events of them all were/are run with sports cars: the Mille Miglia, the Targa Florio, the 24 Hours of Le Mans, the 24 Hours of Nurburgring, and the Carrera Panamericana. Also of note was the Coppa Acerbo which used the daunting Pescara Circuit, sometimes run as a Grand Prix, sometimes run as a sports cars race.

 

[Pupik]

It's tough to make comparisons between how skilled an F1 driver is in another series, because they rarely jump into other disciplines on off-weekends. It wasn't uncommon for a Grand Prix driver to race in sports car events, touring cars, or give the Indy 500 or Monte Carlo Rallye a chance to expand the skillset, get some adrenaline through the veins, and pick up some dollaroos along the way.

It's been a trend since the 1980s due to potential sponsorship clashes, the increasing "professionalism" of the sport, sponsors/teams not wanting their prized assets to take great risks, et cetera. Ninety percent of the grid never has to worry about money for the rest of their livelong days. Even less of a reason to have to jump into a minor club event to make sure their rent check doesn't bounce for their apartment in Monaco, unless their cologne sponsor says they've gotta do it.

I look at different motorsports series as mountains within the same range. They're all mostly pretty impressive and it's tougher to get back down and climb all over again to each summit.

F1 is still an estranged weird cousin with a beret to the WinXfinCokeNationalCAR Cup in The States, so we fans get to play the hipster card and act like it's only a big deal because y'all say it is.

 

[MatskiMonk]

@MatskiMonk Someone's grumpy.

I just want it to earn its reputation, not rely on F1 is pinnacle because F1 type arguments.

I've not been a fan of F1 mostly since the end of the V10 era for a number of reasons - mostly not related to the actual sport itself, but certainly it has made some **** decisions recently. JPM was the last driver I actively wanted to support, BMW were the last team, and I hated the '09 cars, add to that the move to pay-to-view in the UK... so I gave up with it. Even before that I vowed never to go to an F1 race again because of how terrible of an experience BGP 2006 was (and this was even before I'd got the perspective of going to 70 other races across about 10 different championships and disciplines in 5 different countries).

I think it matters, though, because it's where a lot of people get their perception of motorsport from, on this side of the world anyway.

 

[Pupik]

In the future, Formula E could overcome F1's pinnacle status. As society moves towards acceptance of electric vehicles, there may be a push by the manufacturers to use it as a test bed, rather than a spec series with re-branding. In that case, F1 will lose a big advantage because it's becoming increasingly restrictive on useful innovation. Unless we hit a wall whereby the innovation of electric-powered vehicles can progress no further, then I predict that F1 would emerge with fully-electric engines and FE is no more. That would be an interesting merger or clash to watch for, though drawn out and probably artificially stymied by the FIA.

But Formula E isn't quite there for a few reasons; the racing noise is mostly absent, the open circuits are not used, and currently it's just used as a showcase for manufacturers to say "we're doing something exciting with electric vehicles". And it's largely borrowed the accessibility distances between fans, cars, teams, and drivers straight from F1.

Endurance cars are an interesting sight but the spectators don't get as excited by the racing. It's not typically wheel-to-wheel due to the longer distances. If people are bored when there hasn't been a pass for the lead in an F1 race in 30 laps, then I don't really see the torch being passed back to sports cars like it was in the 1960s. The overall speeds and power might eclipse that of open-wheel cars but time will tell. Prototypes and sports-cars do mix nicely and that's much more accessible, in a way.

 

[lancia delta hf]

Just a quick poll since it seems that the majority of F1 fans (sample size of 2) I come across believe that it is the pinnacle of motorsport with better drivers, cars, racing, engineering, etc.

I personally believe F1 is just the series at the top of the Formula ladder and nothing else. In my eyes, it is impossible to directly compare F1 to another series like WRC/X, MotoGP or LMH/DPi. Maybe more of a Pinnacle of "X" thing for each series and checking to see which ticks the most boxes.

It's the pinnacle of motorsport, doesnt mean its the best of everything. In the 90s at one point DTM was more advanced ( because of regs ) but F1 was still the pinnacle. Speaking of which DTMs demise is just another reason I'm not a fan of Mercedes, they killed an amazing series.

 

[IcySlivers]

How fast is F1 compared to IndyCar, WEC, Super Formula and more

Right, time to settle some arguments. Where do the world’s and UK’s leading categories stack up on lap time? Here’s our take on it, using data from 2021

www.motorsport.com

Lots of numbers here for those who care to read it, you can tldr and skip to the table at the bottom of the page.

This is a great example of why Formula 1 is the best and highest class of Motorsport to me. It’s the fastest class in the world, nothing comes close.

 

[TheElbows]

I voted no, and I would have voted "enthusiastically" no, given the chance.

I admit I'm baffled by people who think that the cars being "fast" somehow make it the pinnacle of motorsport. To me motorsport would be, ya know...actual racing? In that regard I think F1 is one of the lowest ranking motorsports that I follow. To me F1 is little more than high-society motorsport drama. That's the entertaining part of it. The only pinnacle I see is the vast investment of money, the high-dollar negotiations, bartering and politicking.

The cars are high-tech and expensive, but I've never been impressed by them. They race around an hour, and burn up tires in as little as 8-9 laps, etc. To me that's not impressive. A WRC car, even on the shorter modern rallies is more technologically impressive to me - as are any of the endurance racing series. I'm not impressed if your racing series need DRS to actually effect a pass on someone.

I don't care how fast an F1 car is around a safe track that has been meticulously manicured for a delicate F1 car. Meanwhile I can go watch an endurance car beat itself to death around Sebring for 12 hours or 1,000 kilometers, etc. To me that's infinitely more impressive.

The only thing in F1 that impresses me is the drivers. Unlike some of their predecessors, modern F1 drivers are at the "fighter pilot" level of fitness and reflexes. The same can be said of most top series motorsport drivers, but I appreciate their fitness/athleticism/consistency, etc.

 

[Samus]

I voted no, and I would have voted "enthusiastically" no, given the chance.

I admit I'm baffled by people who think that the cars being "fast" somehow make it the pinnacle of motorsport. To me motorsport would be, ya know...actual racing? In that regard I think F1 is one of the lowest ranking motorsports that I follow. To me F1 is little more than high-society motorsport drama. That's the entertaining part of it. The only pinnacle I see is the vast investment of money, the high-dollar negotiations, bartering and politicking.

The cars are high-tech and expensive, but I've never been impressed by them. They race around an hour, and burn up tires in as little as 8-9 laps, etc. To me that's not impressive. A WRC car, even on the shorter modern rallies is more technologically impressive to me - as are any of the endurance racing series. I'm not impressed if your racing series need DRS to actually effect a pass on someone.

I don't care how fast an F1 car is around a safe track that has been meticulously manicured for a delicate F1 car. Meanwhile I can go watch an endurance car beat itself to death around Sebring for 12 hours or 1,000 kilometers, etc. To me that's infinitely more impressive.

The only thing in F1 that impresses me is the drivers. Unlike some of their predecessors, modern F1 drivers are at the "fighter pilot" level of fitness and reflexes. The same can be said of most top series motorsport drivers, but I appreciate their fitness/athleticism/consistency, etc.

So in short....

 

[TheElbows]

Damn Shania Twain was hot back in...gah...1998?

 

[IcySlivers]

@TheElbows I guess you’ll stay baffled then. I have little to no interest in slower vehicles. Things can be that simple. There’s plenty of good racing within F1 imo. The ridiculous money, prestige and politics all adds to the speed to make it even more interesting. It’s the pinnacle in many areas.

 

[MatskiMonk]

The cars are high-tech and expensive, but I've never been impressed by them. They race around an hour, and burn up tires in as little as 8-9 laps, etc. To me that's not impressive. A WRC car, even on the shorter modern rallies is more technologically impressive to me - as are any of the endurance racing series. I'm not impressed if your racing series need DRS to actually effect a pass on someone.

I don't care how fast an F1 car is around a safe track that has been meticulously manicured for a delicate F1 car. Meanwhile I can go watch an endurance car beat itself to death around Sebring for 12 hours or 1,000 kilometers, etc. To me that's infinitely more impressive.

These are fair points I think. You can come up with a metric that says F1 cars are the fastest, but it's likely if it found itself in a race against a number of those slower categories it wouldn't actually win.

 

[Suzuki-Cara]

Pinnacle is subjective I think, depending on where you're from. In the world? I'd agree that F1's the top.

In America? Probably not. One part in particular is that racing in America stemmed from bootleggers outrunning the law, evolved into people like Lee Petty who made it a career and fed his family.

Formula 1 to me never had that good ol boy charm. But I guess it's an untapped market here, seeing how the states are hosting three events in 2023.

 

[Liquid]

Formula 1 to me never had that good ol boy charm.

It's never had that. If there is one thing the spirit of Formula One definitely is not, is Lee Petty running moonshine in his friend's Buick or Dick Johnson and Peter Brock racing Holdens and Fords around leafy Australian billabongs.

Doesn't mean you can't like different things for different reasons though.

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

It's never had that. If there is one thing the spirit of Formula One definitely is not, is Lee Petty running moonshine in his friend's Buick or Dick Johnson and Peter Brock racing Holdens and Fords around leafy Australian billabongs.

It had Max Mosley getting paddled by two women.

 

[Liquid]

It had Max Mosley getting paddled by two women.

That's the bad boy charm.

 

[Pupik]

That's the bad boy charm.

Rich Energy and Vijay Mallya, also got to make sure they stirred things up.

It's more of a yacht club atmosphere but with 10-year-olds each saying "that's not fair!" and at least one yearly promise that they're "running away from home" – which never comes to fruition – unless they're broke.

 

[IcySlivers]

The speed yo, what other racing series can do this?

 

[Robetr]

People see the fast cars and immediately think it's the pinnacle of Motorsports. Pinnacle of engineering? Sure. Of Motorsports? No way, there is no pinnacle.

In indy you have really versatile tracks and what i think is the ultimate drivers car.
In WRC you have ridiculously fast cars almost flying through twisty mountain roads, rural roads covered in gravel or snow, all while threading their car through between obstacles, at impossible speeds.
In F1 you have insane speeds and a ton of off track competition,
In sportscars you and your team are tested to the max in endurance races.
In GT's you have the world's most competitive fields packed with close battles no time to rest on track.


The "best 20 drivers in the world" irks me even more.

Drivers like Romain Dumas, Scott McLaughlin, Josef Newgarden, Alessandro Pier Guidi, Rafaelle Marciello are easily better than the likes of Esteban Ocon or Kevin Magnussen, but they are barely known outside of Motorsports circles.

People also like to forget that not everyone is insane enough to spend years as a reserve, or doesn't have the funds to make it, so they bail from the joke that is the F1 ladder,

 

[Liquid]

What makes the Dallara DW12 the ultimate drivers car?

 

[lancia delta hf]

Damn Shania Twain was hot back in...gah...1998?

Absolutely she was hot hot hot.

 

[Samus]

People see the fast cars and immediately think it's the pinnacle of Motorsports. Pinnacle of engineering? Sure. Of Motorsports? No way, there is no pinnacle.

In indy you have really versatile tracks and what i think is the ultimate drivers car.
In WRC you have ridiculously fast cars almost flying through twisty mountain roads, rural roads covered in gravel or snow, all while threading their car through between obstacles, at impossible speeds.
In F1 you have insane speeds and a ton of off track competition,
In sportscars you and your team are tested to the max in endurance races.
In GT's you have the world's most competitive fields packed with close battles no time to rest on track.


The "best 20 drivers in the world" irks me even more.

Drivers like Romain Dumas, Scott McLaughlin, Josef Newgarden, Alessandro Pier Guidi, Rafaelle Marciello are easily better than the likes of Esteban Ocon or Kevin Magnussen, but they are barely known outside of Motorsports circles.

People also like to forget that not everyone is insane enough to spend years as a reserve, or doesn't have the funds to make it, so they bail from the joke that is the F1 ladder,

Again, pinnacle =/= best.