Is GT5 not as refined in force feedback as FM3?

[t.o.]

So you're getting improvement as you go lower or once you hit that "5" you enter the threshold and it's pretty much the same no matter how lower you go?

I think the answer to the questioned stated in thread title is pretty much GT5 isn't as refined as one would expect and definitely doesn't take advantage of the various wheel's fine points. You know, if it was something like GT5 having to take advantage of every customized PC configuration in the public I'd say that would be ridiculous to expect. However there are but so many wheels on the market with most clearly identical in certain performance profiles as others leaving only a few wheels they could have concentrated on a made an effort to get the most out of. I think it's not asking too much for them to have put in the extra work to get the most out of people's hardware.

 

[chromatic9]

I assume you've used your wheel quite a bit with FM3. Do you feel like something's "missing" in GT5 as far as the feedback GT5 gives compared to FM3?

Yes, it's less communicative than FM3 at medium to low speeds with traction, weight shifting. Also the rumble strip ridge effects aren't there with my Fanatec, there's good strong FFB hitting the curbs though so I don't miss it. GT5 has some rare but nice effects when driving fast through say the Cape Ring where you car is compressing over the elevations like some PC sims.

FWD are fun as in lifelike and give a detailed response in FM3, where GT5 its more a generic fast strong response. I enjoy both but both could do with each others plus points.

 

[Zoom!Zoom!]

Come to think of it, I've noticed more ffb effects coming from my DFGT than GT3 RS v2.

 

[GT Motion]

I really think soon there will be a big force feedback update when the official wheel is released, so I will wait till the new wheel comes out to see if there is an update before I lay a final judgment on the FFB.

 

[panjandrum]

GT4 and GT5 definitely provide less feedback in certain areas than most other sims that I've played. Understeer is the most pronounced problem-area, as has been mentioned already here. Try Ferrari Challenge next to GT5 and you'll see a tremendous difference. Also, why don't we have even basic road-surface feedback, such as even a gentle rumble on cobblestone streets?

On the other hand, I'm a big RR car fan (real-life and sim), and one thing GT4/5 does better than any other SIM I've played to date is simulate the weight-balance of a car through the wheel. Really fine implementation on that part. I think this may be the key to why the cars in GT4/5 feel so individual and unique, whereas in many other sims they feel noticeably more generic. Maybe the issue is simply that it isn't possible to simulate everything simultaneously, so that developers must choose to simulate certain aspects at the expense of other ones.

(I can't compare specifically to Forza, since the X-box supports none of the wheels I own. The couple of times I did get to play Forza it was with that godawful Microsoft thing, and there is no way that would provide a fair comparison.)

I run with the Fanatec GT3 RS v2 and with a Logitech G25.

 

[chromatic9]

If you turn off ABS and lock the brakes the steering goes light etc, so for GT its a step forward.

PD need to test other games thoroughly. I can't say for sure they don't of course but it only seems that may have started to at look some games lately.

I've heard Kaz before talking about wheels and they need to be better and I agree. Fanatec is one which aren't going to get the special treatment from PD on its own so hopefully the T500 arrival will get PD to look more seriously, maybe even benefit us all. A tinfoil hat says we won't but one can hope.

 

[RacingManiac]

If you turn off ABS and lock the brakes the steering goes light etc, so for GT its a step forward.

Big +1 on that....tried this for the first time over the weekend and its a night and day difference for me. The cars now and how they drive makes more sense to me to how to set them up. I can feel the limit a lot better....

Some cars are just tricky without ABS though I will need a lot more time on them. But on cars that works my god it is much better....

Also just turned the force level down to 6. Was running 10 and tried 4 also. The effect is a lot weaker yet the "feel" is still there. Though I prefer them to be more pronounced so I dialed it back up a couple. One thing I do notice though I don't have to "fight" the FFB as much any more and I can make steering correction quicker...again this is on G25

 

[MowTin]

The only thing I noticed is that in FM3 when I crest a hill I was able to feel the wheel go light. I don't get that in GT5 using the DFP. In FM3 I was using the cheap MS Wheel.

My biggest gripe with FM3 is that you need a $300 wheel to enjoy it. That is a huge huge negative in my book.

 

[chromatic9]

The only thing I noticed is that in FM3 when I crest a hill I was able to feel the wheel go light. I don't get that in GT5 using the DFP. In FM3 I was using the cheap MS Wheel.

Yeah I've posted exactly that before about the crest. Especially in a FWD hot hatch. Very fun and lifelike.

 

[Miths]

Speaking of FFB setting, any G25 user can comment what to use? I've been dialing mine to 10 but I am wonder if lower might actually be better? Weighting is nice I feel and around Nordschleife the feedback is good, but I am wonder if the weighting might be diluting some of the finer details?

10?! I haven't tried that high a setting, but it certainly doesn't sound pleasant. I've actually lowered it from the default 5 to 2 or 3 (can't remember which one) - it's still enough to provide good feedback (in some games very high force feedback settings can actually make all the finer details of the effects hard to feel), but not so much that I feel like I have to wrestle the wheel into submission.

 

[t.o.]

(I can't compare specifically to Forza, since the X-box supports none of the wheels I own. The couple of times I did get to play Forza it was with that godawful Microsoft thing, and there is no way that would provide a fair comparison.)

I run with the Fanatec GT3 RS v2 and with a Logitech G25.

I know people like to rip on the M$ Wheel but honestly guys for the price it was a very very good wheel with one major flaw however, and that's the paddle-shifter. Much like the G25/27 there were mods however if you wanted to enhance it. Bearing mod and a shifter mod among others. It also had the 3 motors in it. They weren't the strongest things on earth , LOL, but they did what they were supposed to do.

FM3 does convey surfaces through the wheel (except the slabs at Sebring, don't know why they overlooked that in FM2 AND FM3, very stupid). Now I just ran some Formula GT at Cote d Azure (sp) and there is a section where some road surface seems to come through. But again, there's something very "basic" about it's feel.

I guess I'm a feedback freak or something. LOL. Even though FM3 did surfaces very well I was totally bummed out about Sebring. As weird as this sounds, I basically wanted to run that track and feel those bumps. That was the first thing I wanted to do before anything else. Didn't care if I was on a bicycle. Now with GT5 my expectations were even higher but the reality was equally lower.

Kaz is talking about they should make better wheels, but if I were a manufacturer I wouldn't lift a finger. How about supporting what's out there already better?

What recourse do we have to get their attention? Guys think emails / snail mail / twitters can get this issue some light?

 

[jonboy1066]

I know people like to rip on the M$ Wheel but honestly guys for the price it was a very very good wheel

That was the problem.....I felt that for the price the MS was a terrible wheel.

When I bought Forza2 and a MS wheel I had been using a Logitech Driving Force Pro on ToCA Race Driver 3 for over a year.

The MS wheel cost me almost twice what I paid for the Logitech, yet the Logitech was at least 10 times a better wheel than the MS effort......and the Logitech is still going strong after 4 years of ownership and 3 years after the version of the MS wheel I bought and returned for a refund had been recalled due to overheating and numerous breakages. Glad I saw the light early and returned mine before the problems started and had a much better experience with the Driving Force X on my XBox (Which cost a third of the price of the MS wheel)

I think a lot of the people who defended the MS effort had never used a decent wheel before as there'd never been a good wheel for the XBox, so when MS fobbed them off with their overpriced, unreliable toy the XBox users were just happy to be served a helping of Force Feedback (which was poor at best)

During the XBox wheel shortage last year when F1 2010 was released I could only wince when I was watching people pay £250 for M$ wheels which I personally would value at around £30 (I wish I'd had the capital and lack of scruples to snap up a load and flog them at that massively inflated price like a lot of other people did with less scruples than me) I bet those who did pay that ridiculous money were gutted when only a month later Fanatec announced the GT2 for the same price.

FM3 does convey surfaces through the wheel (except the slabs at Sebring, don't know why they overlooked that in FM2 AND FM3, very stupid).?

That must have been your MS wheel having a problem, I had brilliant feedback over the slabs at Sebring in FM2 & 3 using a Logitech Driving Force Ex, Fanatec 911 Turbo S and now with a Fanatec GT2

I guess I'm a feedback freak or something.



Now with GT5 my expectations were even higher but the reality was equally lower.

Me too!

What recourse do we have to get their attention? Guys think emails / snail mail / twitters can get this issue some light?

I have Emailed Fanatec to highlight the issue, they were very quick to solve the FFb in the PS3 version of F1 2010 with a firmware update....so hopefully something may get done for GT5 before I loose faith in that game

I dragged my old Logitech DFriving Force Pro out of the attic the other day to try it out on GT5 and see if there was any difference and the difference is amazing!

I had a whirl around High Speed Ring where I know the rumble on Kerbs varies.

With my GT2 if you take a high line into turn 1 and put the right hand wheels on the Kurb on the outside of the banking, I can feel a little rumble..........just.

Yet when I exit the tunnel approaching the final bend and place the same wheels on the Kurb on the inside of the corner I feel.....................nothing.

With the old Logitech DFPro I can feel every bump, cobble & kerb. As if my own hands are being dragged though the kerbs at 100mph wearing velvet gloves..........in a good way LOL.

 

[jonboy1066]

I have Emailed Fanatec to highlight the issue, they were very quick to solve the FFb in the PS3 version of F1 2010 with a firmware update....so hopefully something may get done for GT5 before I loose faith in that game

I've had a reply from Thomas at Fanatec first thing this morning. He's looking into it.

 

[Xx__1c3man__xX]

Only problem i really have with GT5's FFB is that I don't get the sensation of a loss of grip, but I can normally tell that from the engine sound before the tires break completely loose.

I noticed the same FFB issue on Day 1. It's extreeemly disappointing that slip angle wasn't included in the FFB signal. With all the work that PD did with the physics in the game, it's all lost in translation with the horrible FFB the game gives.

 

[t.o.]

That must have been your MS wheel having a problem, I had brilliant feedback over the slabs at Sebring in FM2 & 3 using a Logitech Driving Force Ex, Fanatec 911 Turbo S and now with a Fanatec GT2

That must be one helluva wheel or 360 you got because I haven't felt the slabs with either the M$ wheel, fanatec wheel nor regular controller. I swear I felt it one or two times at the VERY beginning with with FM2 and ever since then it disappeared. I thought it was my imagination but it simply isn't there for me now matter what I use. I can hear the "thumps" but nothing comes through.

 

[zora66]

I like GT5's FF better than FM3's. The XBox technically isn't capable of "true" force feedback. http://neogaf.net/forum/showpost.php?p=15859760&postcount=1

 

[kadoimmortal]

I like GT5's FF better than FM3's. The XBox technically isn't capable of "true" force feedback. http://neogaf.net/forum/showpost.php?p=15859760&postcount=1

^Good point there as I have read extensively FM3 actually doesn't even have true force feedback it's a rumble code that gets decoded by the wheel. I would really like to see XCM's new adapter to use g25/27/DFPGT wheel on the xbox accurately translate these rumble codes into decent feeling real FF. I would really consider picking up an Xbox and checking out FM3 if it does.

 

[t.o.]

^Good point there as I have read extensively FM3 actually doesn't even have true force feedback it's a rumble code that gets decoded by the wheel. I would really like to see XCM's new adapter to use g25/27/DFPGT wheel on the xbox accurately translate these rumble codes into decent feeling real FF. I would really consider picking up an Xbox and checking out FM3 if it does.

Strange, because in "feel" alone it feels like FM3 got it right. GT5 is not bad but it's nowhere near immersive as FM3. I guess that "fake" stuff is better than the "real" thing in this case. Sorta like a girl with VERY good costume jewelry, the only people gonna know the difference is people in the business and maybe a few snobs.

However I wonder if you guys are mixing up some terms here. Rumble code versus FF probably needs to be ironed out. I don't think the FF in the 360/FM3 implementation is any more "not true" than what GT5 is doing as far as turning the wheel and getting resistance. Only separation is other effects which the PS3 lack altogether and the 360/FM3 is "faking" with the 2 additional motors added just for those effects.

As far as XCM's adatper I know the "old" one didn't work and seeing as the 360 is looking for those additional motors in the wheel I don't think it's going to fully work with the Logitech wheels but it could possibly work well enough for those who don't know what they're missing would be happy.

 

[jonboy1066]

^^^^Couldn't agree more with everything written above^^^^

"Real" or "Fake" it matters not a jot, whichever way you look at it you're still using a bunch of metal and plastic to coax pictures of cars around pictures of tracks on a screen so it's all fake anyway!
What is real is the feeling and the pleasure that you get from that feeling.

With FM3,Ferrari Challenge & F1 2010 I get immense pleasure from the FFb. In GT5 I get moments of pleasure surrounded by long periods of frustration.

 

[mykem]

Edit: Forgot to say that I've tried the beta/demos of Supercar Challenge and Ferrari Challenge and I found the FFB (on my DFGT) to be a complete joke. The centring force just swamped all other feedback and I just felt like I was fighting the wheel to get the car to turn corners. Not pleasant. I tried everything I could think of since lots of GTP people rate the FFB highly, but I couldn't find a way to make the FFB anything other than totally awful.

I played Ferrari Challenge for almost two years (bought it the first day it was release in NA) alongside GT5P. The difference in the FFB between the two is night and day.

The FFB in FC feels much stronger but instead of effect itself, it's the centre spring that's less supple. Instead of getting the "rubbery" feel you get from the FFB in iRacing or nKar (and now GT5 and even previously in GT Academy TT), you're forcing the steering left or right with FC. Some people perceive this heaviness and the amount of force required to counter the centre-spring as a great implementation of weight transfer.

In weight shift or transfer you need to feel the weight moving or swaying between the four corners of the car. For example while cornering, you should feel the initial weight shift (of whichever way you're turning) start to move the opposite direction. In FC none of these are implemented.

When it comes to front tire grip which should encompass the majority of what you should feel from the FFB, both iRacing and nKar probably have the best implementation. To explain the feel of iRacing FFB, here's a quote from Aeromechanical from NoGripRacing Forum (because I couldn't explain it better)-

"feels a little more 'rubbery' if that makes sense. Pneumatic trail or whatever. There is a certain amount of springy play in the steering wheel around the area where the tire wants to follow its self aligning force. It gives the impression better that what I'm doing is applying force to the wheel rather than simply turning it."

In FC you simply don't feel neither the "springy play" nor does it feel as if you're "applying force to the wheel rather than simply turning it." To me the steering in FC feels closer to a motorcycle or a three wheel vehicle (Reliant Robin for example). There's a complete tendency for even the latest FR Ferrari to oversteer (the 550 or the 575 for example). In many ways it reminded me of the FFB in Forza 2.

As with GT5, I use the G25 in FC. To offset the notorious dead zone in FC, I had it set to High. I would sometime switch to medium setting but rarely.

 

[kadoimmortal]

Strange, because in "feel" alone it feels like FM3 got it right. GT5 is not bad but it's nowhere near immersive as FM3. I guess that "fake" stuff is better than the "real" thing in this case. Sorta like a girl with VERY good costume jewelry, the only people gonna know the difference is people in the business and maybe a few snobs.

However I wonder if you guys are mixing up some terms here. Rumble code versus FF probably needs to be ironed out. I don't think the FF in the 360/FM3 implementation is any more "not true" than what GT5 is doing as far as turning the wheel and getting resistance. Only separation is other effects which the PS3 lack altogether and the 360/FM3 is "faking" with the 2 additional motors added just for those effects.

As far as XCM's adatper I know the "old" one didn't work and seeing as the 360 is looking for those additional motors in the wheel I don't think it's going to fully work with the Logitech wheels but it could possibly work well enough for those who don't know what they're missing would be happy.

I wish I had a fanetec or could try one out on Forza3 but it's just a little out of my price range. I don't think I would enjoy playing it as much as GT5 without 900 degrees. Even though I only use around 200 degrees when I'm trying to go fast.

 

[t.o.]

I wish I had a fanetec or could try one out on Forza3 but it's just a little out of my price range. I don't think I would enjoy playing it as much as GT5 without 900 degrees. Even though I only use around 200 degrees when I'm trying to go fast.

You can do 900 degrees in Forza also.

 

[CoolColJ]

Why are people comparing a wheel with 2 different games, which in one isn't officially supported and licensed, but "hacked" in?

 

[jonboy1066]

Why are people comparing a wheel with 2 different games, which in one isn't officially supported and licensed, but "hacked" in?

Because 'Officially supported' or not, despite the strange rumble absence on curbs the GT2 is still THE best wheel for any console which works better than any other wheel on GT5 as well as FM3 and so having the ability to use the same wheel with two different games gives the full ability to actually compare the top two car culture games on the merits of their FFb and Rumble.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4PZAAHRA6s&feature=feedu

 

[Zer0]

This topic needs to be changed to Fanatec related or something to avoid misinformations.

 

[CoolColJ]

I dunno, but I thought the T500RS was the best implemented and fully supported wheel on GT5....

 

[Zoom!Zoom!]

Because 'Officially supported' or not, despite the strange rumble absence on curbs the GT2 is still THE best wheel for any console which works better than any other wheel on GT5 as well as FM3 and so having the ability to use the same wheel with two different games gives the full ability to actually compare the top two car culture games on the merits of their FFb and Rumble.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4PZAAHRA6s&feature=feedu

I knew someone was going to post this. It's very funny Gt2 got 7 points higher than the GT3 when they are basically the same wheel with the only difference is X360 support. If they are trying to help sell this wheel to those who already own wheels including those with Turbo S and GT3 then it make senses they would rate this wheel much higher than the others. I personally still prefer G27 over the GT3 in GT5.

 

[t.o.]

I knew someone was going to post this. It's very funny Gt2 got 7 points higher than the GT3 when they are basically the same wheel with the only difference is X360 support. If they are trying to help sell this wheel to those who already own wheels including those with Turbo S and GT3 then it make senses they would rate this wheel much higher than the others. I personally still prefer G27 over the GT3 in GT5.

Ok I can respect that. But I'd like to know what in your experiences with both wheels make you prefer the G27 over the GT3? When you used the GT3 in GT5 what was it that you didn't like that you thought the G27 did better?

 

[u00mem9]

^Good point there as I have read extensively FM3 actually doesn't even have true force feedback it's a rumble code that gets decoded by the wheel. I would really like to see XCM's new adapter to use g25/27/DFPGT wheel on the xbox accurately translate these rumble codes into decent feeling real FF. I would really consider picking up an Xbox and checking out FM3 if it does.

You guys both need to go read that link again, without the fanhats. The difference is in where the signal is processed. There is nothing about processing it at the console that makes it more "true". It is not a decoded rumble signal. (that was the logitech solution used for the first xbox with their direct FX wheel, because they didn't want to create a solution at the wheel, or pay royalties)

It's endless entertainment to observe people who can only hear things that agree with their view of the world. How do you divide your time between GT5 and Fox News???

 

[zora66]

You guys both need to go read that link again, without the fanhats. The difference is in where the signal is processed. There is nothing about processing it at the console that makes it more "true". It is not a decoded rumble signal. (that was the logitech solution used for the first xbox with their direct FX wheel, because they didn't want to create a solution at the wheel, or pay royalties)

It's endless entertainment to observe people who can only hear things that agree with their view of the world. How do you divide your time between GT5 and Fox News???

Quote from NeoGAF:
MS is using a special USB and input protocol (XID) but more important they decided to use a completely different method of generating FF effects.

On the PC or PS3 FF effects are created in the console and the console only sends out Force commands to the motor (left, right and how strong). This consumes some CPU power.

Therefore MS decided to put a lot of pre-defined FF commands into the IC of the wheel and the console sends something like ("play FF effect #24" = "shaking while driving over rough surface").

This allows the game developer to use more CPU power for graphics and other stuff. And actually the very first FF controllers on PC were using this method as well.