Is the universe finite or infinite?

Is the universe finite or infinite?

  • I believe the universe encompasses a finite amount of space.

    Votes: 20 37.7%
  • I believe the universe has no end and it is infinite.

    Votes: 33 62.3%

  • Total voters
    53
Instead of writing my usual 8 paragraph post, I will just ask the question and see what conclusions you guys come to.

Think about it for a few minutes before posting.
 
Pity I will miss Famines reply :(

Well, I believe it is infinite, for one reason.

It is expanding at the speed of light. For all practical purposes it is infinite as one can never reach the end of it unless a) you can travel faster then the speed of light, which one cannot according to e=mc2 or b) it slows its rate of expansion, which is possible if you believe it will not continue expanding.

The universe may appear to be finite due to Einsteins curved Space-Time theory. If I remember correctly, it postulates that the universe has sufficient dark matter/cosmic contents to create a gravitational force that curves space-time like a rugby ball. Thus if one possessed an extra-ordinarily strong set of binoculars and one was floating in space, one could look through the binoculars and see one's own arse.

The more boggling question, is that of what is the universe expanding into.

EDIT: I just saw the poll option reading I believe the universe is infinite and has no boundary. It is possible that it has a boundary and is infinite, as described in my rugby ball example. A better example is that of the earth. The surface area is limited, yet there is no finite end. That is why the sailors of yonder didnt sail off the end of the earth. Similarly, you can run you finger around a cue ball and never reach a boundary, yet the ball is of defined size.
 
I believe it is finite. Don't now how to argue for it, it's just a feeling. I can't get a feeling for the concept of infinity.
 
Not everything that has a start, has an end. Your statement is rather vague. Are you talking about the "life" of the universe or its boundaries?
 
Infinite is an interesting concept with some tricky implications. One of these the fact that for something to be infinite is must always have been infinite, infinitely. This would cancel the big bang. Infinite means no end and no beginning. The argument, "For all practical purposes it is infinite..." does indeed make sense, but as we are shown repeatedly, astrophysics defies "sense". I would suggest that even if the universe's expansion is accelerating, and is expected to continue to accelerate, its finitude is still plausible. Our incapacity to "go to" the end of the universe is no evidence that there isn't one. So by holding the definition of "infinite" to it's own essence, we must, in the absence of any other physical principles, properties, or observations, assume the universe is finite.
 
The very definition of the universe is that it is everything around us. Obviously.


The space that the universe takes up has to be infinite, because if there was a barrier at the edge of the universe, no matter what it is (simply a wall, or what? more empty blackness), that too would have to be included as part of the universe.


The reasoning that the universe could wrap back around on itself, would also require a defined area that the universe was taking up.

You give the example of the round earth or cue ball having no "end", on its surface, but the universe is far from the linear surface of a sphere.

This topic is at the very limits of human comprehension. Humans can only learn about things on a basis of comparison. A concept like infinite is far too great for the human brain to conjure up. Where else do we see infinite, only in math, and math is known as the interpretation of the scientific. Infinite exists in math, we are still unable to explore all of it, because it is infinite.

Time and space are, in a way, like the X and Y axis of the universe. They are interdependant on eachother and you can't really escape either. They also can both be warped together, theoretically, by going the speed of light. Now, if we think about time, it HAS to be infinite. The very definition of time, is that it will go on forever. You can imagine, that if the world wasn't here, time would still relentlessly "tick" on as it has for.....ever.

I believe that both time and space are infinite. It is a just a fundamental law of all that is. For the universe to have not existed at one point would make you realise that something affected it to come into existence. Now, don't think of God or something doing this, because we are left with the same problem.

Suppose that the universe was infinite in both time and space, we are basically not capable of understanding something like this. But I think it could be a law, that the universe, has and always will exist, as an expanse of space that has no end.

Just like the law that all matter has gravity. Why is this law imposed on all matter? Who knows, it is just programmed into the properties of the universe.

If you are patient I will give you all some idea of the vastness of just the visible universe.



I really think that most people don't realize how big the universe is.

If you have ever done a scale model, I will tell you how it would work, listen carefully and you will be blown away.


To get an idea for the earth in relation to the sun, you could hold a sphere, that has the diameter of a CD. That is the sun, now the earth on this same scale would be exactly half the size of the hole in a headphone jack for your walkman. (Not the big headphone jack on your stereo.) And, on this same scale they would be exaclty 53 ft apart from eachother.


Also, on this same scale Pluto (the furthest planet from the sun in our solar system) is the size of the period at the end of this sentence. On our scale model it would be 600 meters away. 0.6 of a kilometer or 1/3 of a mile away from our CD sized sun.


Now, to give us a perspective on the next closest star, Alpha Centauri, we have to shrink our scale even more. The sun is now 1 grain of salt, and the earth is 1 single grain of talcum powder (which is VERY small). The grain of talcum powder (earth) is 4.3 inches from the grain of salt (sun).

The next closest star, Alpha Centauri would be the size of a SLIGHTLY smaller grain of salt, and that would be 17 miles or 33 kilometers away. ABout a 20 minute drive at highway speeds, to get to this other grain of salt.

Now, we are 1 star in the Milky Way Galaxy. In the milky way galaxy there are over 100 billion solar systems like our own. All about as far apart as our sun is from Alpha Centauri. If we made a scale of the Milky Way galaxy using the grain of salt size stars the diameter of the Milky Way would 425,000 miles (684,000 kms) full of over 100 billion grains of salt. All these grains of salt are between 15 and 20 miles apart.

425,000 miles is FAR more miles than the average car gets in its lifetime. If you started at one side of our scale Galaxy, with a car that was travelling 60 mph or 100 km/h (highway speed) and you didn't stop or even slow down for a second, it would take 295 days to drive across this scale galaxy. Or just under 10 months.


Now, that you have our galaxy roughly imagined in your head, although it is VERY difficult for us to picture a swirling mass that is 425,000 miles large, even on our 1/10 billion scale.

The Milky Way is part of a Super cluster. In a super cluster there are about 200 million Galaxies.


In just the visible universe, which is only as far as we can see, there are over 50 million superclusters.

To get another perspective, just imagine this:

The number of stars in the visible universe is more than the number of grains of sand on EVERY beach in the world.


At this point your brain is probably mush. Everytime I think about this, I am blown away.
 
I believe, not entirely sure here, that since space and time are connected, if time is infinite so is space.
 
If you say that it is finite, then it must be contained within something. That something is also part of the Universe. You can't just have "nothing". "Nothing" is part of the Universe as well (:

It's a rather difficult subject to wrap your mind around. Time has no begining and no end. The Universe, as far as 'volume' ... 'space' ... 'area' ... are concerned, there is no limit. You can pick a direction and go that way forever.

Where did it come from? *shrug*
Where is it going? *shrug*

Does it matter? No, not really.
 
It is finite because there is nothing beyond but infinte because there is no wall encompassing it. We will never know and it is meritless attempting to understand the vast complexity of the universe, although I would like to know I do not believe it is worth wasting a life time searching through fruitless clues.
 
There is no reason to assume that if the universe is finite it must be "in" some knowable "space". If the universe is infinite it would had to have always existed, the big bang would be nothing more than an event that occurred in the universe, which had always existed for infinity. I repeat what I stated above: for something to be infinite it necessarily has no begining and no end. To assert that the universe has no end, either spatially or temporally, necessarily requires the universe to have (had) no beginning. That brings us back to the big bang being a mere event in the universe that it is supposed to have been the beginning of...
 
Originally posted by LoudMusic
May I introduce you to my friend the period?

.





TADA! He likes to be used frequently.


May I introduce you to a meaningful and on topic post? We all wish they were used more frequently.

Your lessons in punctuation are not wanted here. So anymore of that nonsense, and I will make fun of you.
 
Well this certainly is an excellent discussion now isn't it! lol...

Ok, infinite.

Reason: I believe in god. That is an extreme bias. However, :D

I believe the earth is the center of the universe. There is no other life in the universe and every time a man looks to find a boundrie he will find open prarie.

It is as if we can look in any direction far enough and eventually see something, then from there look on.

I also want to point out some bunk ass relativity... Where does the universe's edges lie and where would the center of the universe be based on that?

With that question, and my own beliefs, I am inclinded to say that the universe is ever expanding. Never collapsing.

If man ever sees the universe collapse, I will consider the new findings, but for now, the universe is just getting bigger and more costly. ;)

Every time we can look farther we do, and on the light side, some of those photos are awesome. Stars being born and huge gas clouds. :hides as a geek:

Anyway, Nice question. 👍 Later :D
 
Right, wouldn't the big bang be part of the universe as well? If you define the universe as everything that exists, or had existed, then it seems to me that it must be infinite. It's expanding? Great, what is it expanding into? It's gotta be something, and that something is part of the universe, right? If it's "nothing", that "nothing" still is part of the universe, right?
 
Originally posted by GoKents
Well this certainly is an excellent discussion now isn't it! lol...

Ok, infinite.

Reason: I believe in god. That is an extreme bias. However, :D

I believe the earth is the center of the universe. There is no other life in the universe and every time a man looks to find a boundrie he will find open prarie.


You are saying that with ALL of the stars, galaxies, solar systems, clusters, etc., we are the only planet that supports life? That's really hard to beleive.
 
Well I know it's hard to believe, but the fact is, there is no proof at all of any life anywhere, and being of true scientific mind, I will not interject possibilities of my imagination.

Therefore, no life contacting us, no life out there.
 
If the universe is infinite, then everything has to be infinite. If the big bang was part of the universe, then what we observe as the universe is not even the universe.
 
Originally posted by milefile
There is no reason to assume that if the universe is finite it must be "in" some knowable "space". If the universe is infinite it would had to have always existed, the big bang would be nothing more than an event that occurred in the universe, which had always existed for infinity. I repeat what I stated above: for something to be infinite it necessarily has no begining and no end. To assert that the universe has no end, either spatially or temporally, necessarily requires the universe to have (had) no beginning. That brings us back to the big bang being a mere event in the universe that it is supposed to have been the beginning of...


The big bang just explains, why all of the MATTER, is rushing away from us. The actual space that the matter is rushing out into may have always been there. Empty blackness that goes on forever.



I was laying in bed thinking about this. I thought, what if the end of the universe, was mereley a place where the laws of this universe didn't apply. It is probably a stab in the dark, but I am trying to explain a very complex thing here. But what if the end of the universe, was an empty place. Where inertia, the laws of gravity, perhaps even time didn't exist. It could even be, that light could not travel into this area.

Thinking of a place like this is completely foreign to our pea brains. But the part that bothers, me is that in the physical sense, it is impossible for the universe to end. Because, we are assuming that you would have to GO INTO this area to see that time, gravity and light did not exist there.
 
Asserting that the universe is infinite and simultaneously asserting that it is expanding into something is contradictory. If the universe is expanding into something it is necessarily finite.

If the universe were infinite, which always automatically means in both time and space, and matter were finite (which it is, it can't be any other way), then every thing, every event, would be infinite. In infinite time and space finite matter would have exhausted every possible combination and configuration infinite times (a finite amount of possible configurations in infinite time and space). Every detail of every thing would be an event that has occured infinte times before (all the way down to this thread... or the particular way your hair was messed up when you got out of bed... or a particular raindrop...) and would continue to occur infinite times more. As with all assertions of infinity, paradoxes occur.
 
I would hazard the opinion that the Universe is finite, but Space is infinite. Defining the universe as every form of energy there is, including matter. The universe started from one point, then there was the big bang, and it has expanded to it's current size, but it is certainly still finite.

Space, I think, is a much bigger place, and probably infinite. Now I need another beer to quell this headache I'm suddenly aquiring.
 
I would think Infinite. I eman, what would bea t the end of the universe? It sometimes makes my stomach drop thinging of how something could go on and on forever. If it was a Big Bang that made the Universe, then what was tehre before? Are w living our lives all over again as Big Bangs occure or something? I just think it's infinite, and how do you explain Balck holes? Don't teh break the space time continum or somethin?
 
Main Entry: uni·verse
Pronunciation: 'yü-n&-"v&rs
Function: noun
Etymology: Latin universum, from neuter of universus entire, whole, from uni- + versus turned toward, from past participle of vertere to turn —more at WORTH
Date: 1589
1 : the whole body of things and phenomena observed or postulated : COSMOS: as a : a systematic whole held to arise by and persist through the direct intervention of divine power b : the world of human experience c (1) : the entire celestial cosmos (2) : MILKY WAY GALAXY (3) : an aggregate of stars comparable to the Milky Way galaxy


Thats just a quick definition by the people (meriyan-webster I think) that provide a dictionary service to aol users.

I liked waste gates take on it, but I wasn't sure I agreed with it fully, so I used the dictionary to show support of my own view that...

The universe is infinite due to (imo) the fact that "space" is infact part of the universe, and not a place the universe is located within.

So basically, I think that it is infinite and that space itself is part of a material plane of existance.

Well... later.
 
Didn't Einstein propose a theory about the Universe being "curved"? Like if you take off from a certain point in space eventually you'd reach it again coming from the other side.

I kind of like to think that's true since it's a much more simple theory than all of the 'big bang/expanding Universe' talk I've been hearing since I can remember.
 
this will be one of mankinds unsolved mysterys. there will be no way to proove this. this question no one will ever answer without actualy knowing the truth. everyone will has their own personal opinion. i think that it is infinate, because when you get to the end of the universe, whats it going to be? a black wall? and what would be on the other side of this wall?
 
Originally posted by boombexus
May I introduce you to a meaningful and on topic post? We all wish they were used more frequently.

Your lessons in punctuation are not wanted here. So anymore of that nonsense, and I will make fun of you.

Your post is less meaningful and less on topic than my own.
 
Originally posted by milefile
The entire notion of an expanding universe requires the universe to be finite.


Just the stars and planets, in the form of galaxies are moving away from eachother.

This does not mean that the area that space encompasses is expanding. How can the nothingness of space expand? Just the matter is moving outwards. Perhaps into an infinite blackness.
 
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