Islam - What's your view on it?

[sems4arsenal]

@LeMansAid Clarifications are made, heck a small example is me going to the friday prayer and hearing the Imam condemn the actions of terrorism and how these aren't muslims and that it's a religion of peace.

 

[LeMansAid]

@LeMansAid Clarifications are made, heck a small example is me going to the friday prayer and hearing the Imam condemn the actions of terrorism and how these aren't muslims and that it's a religion of peace.

You're dancing around the real question here. If you can't meet the topic head on for fear of Allah's wrath, or something, I'd suggest not posting at all.

But to make sure that I'm not guilty of my own accusation, I will ask the question simply and succinctly..... Would you agree to adopting a revised version of the Qur'an that would more clearly represent the religion as you know it?

 

[xyloscissor]

Yes and no. See below.

To me, no.

While a man's conscience transcends all physical law he is still bound to it. Perhaps it's purely due to my Christian upbringing, I'm not sure but obviously blowing things up in the name of 'god' is in very poor taste.

 

[DLR_Mysterion]

@DLR_Mysterion how would I know that, and that question kind of falls flat when in the past 100 years there were world wars that were caused by people that aren't muslim but hey let's paint a generalizing brush on that one religion.

Hmmmm I'm not painting a generalizing brush. I gave you the stats on one week of violence by Islamists and asked if you think a more Islamic world will produce more, less or the same amount of violence. On one hand there'll be more "true Muslims" and who knows what effect that will have. Alternatively we will have more people who are "Muslim but not true Muslims who are radicalized by something other than Islam", so the pessimist in me thinks we'll see more violence.

Oh and the answer to your earlier question about a person saying he was a Christian before committing an act, and whether that makes him a Christian I would say yes. We unfortunately have a history of attacks on abortion clinics by people of my faith

 

[ECGadget]

@LeMansAid I see where you are coming from there. As @sems4arsenal said, there is clarification from leaders of communities.

Allow me to attempt to expand upon this further.
Every country has laws both for good and bad situations. This includes rules of engagement for example. Now, does that mean the country is warmongering? No, course not. What it is doing is seeing the reality of what is around and making sure rules are made as to what to do if and when such a time occurs. If we take those rules out two things happen:
1) In the event of such an incident where such rules were needed were to arise, there is no method in which to act.
2) Maybe such rules were formed in response to an earlier incident, in which case there is now historical accuracy and people would question what lessons were and were not learnt.

In Islam (and indeed every religion) this is the same. There are rules about things like war. And there are also stories relating to it. To deny wars happened when Islam was formed is to lie.
What we do is leave it to the experts to clarify all the texts and stories and to give the situations. For example, the Prophet was emphatic on the idea of peace and compassion and kindness, even to ones enemies. At the same time, there were times when there was fighting and bloodshed, but this was ALWAYS overriden by the message of peace. War was a last last last resort.

This can even apply down to the basic things like theft. We all know the penalty for theft in Islam is to chop off a hand. But wait, is it really?
Look at the clarifications and this is not true. The penalty of theft CAN BE as harsh as that IF all of a number of conditions are met. Now of all thefts, you may get 1 in 100000 that MAY meet the conditions. But that does NOT mean the penalty is applied. It means it can be applied by a judge if it is deemed correct. Given this day and age, that penalty can be deemed to never be correct, given that there are many many ways to pay for a crime.

This can apply to anything really. The point is the clarifications are made, and if people choose not to listen that is the fault of the person, not the faith.

Let me give a personal example. As some of you know, I am a Rocket Scientist. Like any scientist/engineer I am very in to the science fields. So, if Islam says evolution is not real, but we see so many signs of it, how does this contradiction work? If Islam says everything is the will of God but science has laws of physics and nature and we know why things happen, how does this work?

To get my understanding, I spoke to a scholar who is in his late 20s and asked him these very questions. His explanation? Islam DOES NOT argue evolution. He told me that the only thing Islam is clear upon is that Man came from Adam and Eve, not monkeys. However, the evolution of animals, the sharing of DNA, the thoughts of all life being from the earth (including humans), and carbon based, the existance of dinosaurs, mammoths to elephants etc etc, whales having feet once, none of this is denied. This is all open to study and the study of evolution is great science as usual, to look back and see what things were like. Similarly, the laws of physics and nature etc etc are ALL accepted to be true. The idea of Gods will? It is that God designed this all to be this way, and what we are learning is how things work the way they do and why. Being a scientist is a great thing to be, to go out and learn and research and invent.

Continuing on, some people believe that a Muslim should not be going to the Doctors because this is going against God by looking for help elsewhere. A senior scholar actually explained this once because apparently this is more common than we think. The idea of prayer is such: You get ill. You pray that you feel better soon. Then you get up off your butt and go to the doctors, people who are smart enough to help you to feel better! If everybody belongs to God, how is seeking help going against God? This is again a people problem.

So when we get to people talking about killing others, this also goes to a people problem. People at the least bad just fail to.understand. At worst they find something somewhere in said religion to justify their own sick ideals.

 

[DLR_Mysterion]

For example, the Prophet was emphatic on the idea of peace and compassion and kindness, even to ones enemies. At the same time, there were times when there was fighting and bloodshed, but this was ALWAYS overriden by the message of peace. War was a last last last resort.

https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/muhammad/captives-kill.aspx

 

[FoRiZon]

https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/muhammad/captives-kill.aspx

Not much different than Jesus I see, historically speaking. As I was saying.

I felt not comfortable saying happy Christmas to people in name of sympathy and solidarity who celebrate when quite lot of them hates our guts.

I wish I can trust you more. Though in here its not much different with Islam rather than Christianity.

 

[mustafur]

Not much different than Jesus I see, historically speaking. As I was saying.

You'll be surprised how much of us are just atheist.

 

[FoRiZon]

You'll be surprised how much of us are just atheist.

If it is (which typically views all religion as such), then I give a pass.

I'm just address some people who embraces their religion while damning others. You know, usual sectarian stuff. Its becoming increasingly observant as time goes recently.

To be fair, I take the laughing GIF as demeaning.

 

[DLR_Mysterion]

Not much different than Jesus I see, historically speaking. As I was saying.

Hehe. Huh?

If it is (which typically views all religion as such), then I give a pass.

I'm just address some people who embraces their religion while damning others. You know, usual sectarian stuff. Its becoming increasingly observant as time goes recently.

To be fair, I take the laughing GIF as demeaning.

But then only atheists could criticise religions. Don't get me wrong, I'm not pulling an Isaac Hayes and saying it's ok to mock religions but leave mine along. It wouldn't bother me if you pointed out some of the bad things to do with Christianity any more than if an atheist did. As for the gif I've used pics for a while in internet posts and had them used on me, I've never seen them as demeaning

 

[LeMansAid]

Every country has laws both for good and bad situations. This includes rules of engagement for example. Now, does that mean the country is warmongering? No, course not. What it is doing is seeing the reality of what is around and making sure rules are made as to what to do if and when such a time occurs. If we take those rules out two things happen:
1) In the event of such an incident where such rules were needed were to arise, there is no method in which to act.
2) Maybe such rules were formed in response to an earlier incident, in which case there is now historical accuracy and people would question what lessons were and were not learnt.

In Islam (and indeed every religion) this is the same. There are rules about things like war. And there are also stories relating to it. To deny wars happened when Islam was formed is to lie.
What we do is leave it to the experts to clarify all the texts and stories and to give the situations. For example, the Prophet was emphatic on the idea of peace and compassion and kindness, even to ones enemies. At the same time, there were times when there was fighting and bloodshed, but this was ALWAYS overriden by the message of peace. War was a last last last resort.

Why on Earth should a belief need a war plan!!? That's completely nonsensical.

It's also very much beside the point. Even if we accept that for some reason a belief should have a memorandum for rules of engagement (I feel ridiculous even stating that as a hypothetical), that says nothing about whether or not Islam explains itself properly. If you made a post on GTP and it was written in such a way that it was difficult to interpret your intended message, I expect you would clarify by editing the original, or by submitting further explanatory posts, or both. That's logical behaviour. If a government wrote up it's rules of engagement, but it was too problematic for people to interpret the intended message, that government would no doubt re-write it, to a small or large extent. That's logical behaviour. Why should we have to swallow the line that Islam has no problems, when standards for clarity fall way below accepted logic, and self-correction is non-existent?

It doesn't matter how well behaved Muslims become, there will still be a latent evil waiting to rear it's head (just as there is with Christianity et al) unless changes with clarification are "hard-wired" in to the core teachings - especially in regards to the Qur'an.

Have it remain immovable, and counter to basic human logic, and I cannot accept it as benign.

 

[ToyGTone]

You know what? Islam was right when it predicted that somewhere in the future, Islam and Muslims would be a total joke from everyone else point of view. People laugh at us, people hate us, people make jokes about words like "allah akbar"...etc. Everywhere i go, people refer to us as the worst creatures on the planet. People blames us for being rapist and terrorist. People think that Muslims hate every non-Muslim.
People go on to say how barbaric we are and goes on to read some few verses from english translated Quran (like not even Arabic) and then pretty much ignore every other verse on the entire book. "OMG ISLAM SAYS TO KILL EVERY NON BELIEVERS" yet ignores verses where it says your religion doesn't had to do with my religion/believes...etc. By that logic, i would have already murdered more than half the population of my Country due to being filled with Indian's, Filipino's and so on.
They say that Daesh is the prove for the "Real" Islam yet the most people who have been effected by ISIS is us Muslims...*cough* Syria & Iraq.

It also bother's me how people take Saudi Arabia as the place who represent all Muslims & Arabs and Islam itself...like i'm talking about the Laws. For example, lately they decided to block pretty much every free voice/video communication. So things like Skype, what's app calls and even some video games voice chat are blocked. Now that's definitely their government being greedy and doesn't have to do with Islam. But do you know what other laws that doesn't have to do with Islam over there?

Women driving. I heard plenty of people believing that Islam is the reason why women can't drive to which i react... To be honest, i believe there's far more problems with our government along with some Muslims than Islam itself. Also one more thing, why people often mention "Religion of peace" whatever they talk about Islam? The idea of spamming the word "Religion of peace" to everyone's face seems to be stupid to me. Whatever it's for positive or negative thing. I don't go all around Muslim's who skip prays (or do any "sin") or non Muslims screaming ISLAM IS A RELIGION OF PEACE to them as if i forcing them to be one. Just call it a religion, no need to claim or deny "Peace" thing.

Okay i'm sorry if i sound rude or if my post doesn't make any sense but i was slowly getting more angry everytime i see people believe that Muslims want to kill everyone and call them animals yet he/she wants for the same thing to happen to us just because we believe in something. I feel like Muslims are currently the most hated people on earth, more so than any other religion, pretty much any race or even Bi/Homosexual people.

Sorry guys

 

[mister dog]

This example illustrates perfectly how dangerous and outright sick this religion can be:

 

[DLR_Mysterion]

You know what? Islam was right when it predicted that somewhere in the future, Islam and Muslims would be a total joke from everyone else point of view. People laugh at us, people hate us, people make jokes about words like "allah akbar"...etc. Everywhere i go, people refer to us as the worst creatures on the planet. People blames us for being rapist and terrorist. People think that Muslims hate every non-Muslim.
People go on to say how barbaric we are and goes on to read some few verses from english translated Quran (like not even Arabic) and then pretty much ignore every other verse on the entire book. "OMG ISLAM SAYS TO KILL EVERY NON BELIEVERS" yet ignores verses where it says your religion doesn't had to do with my religion/believes...etc. By that logic, i would have already murdered more than half the population of my Country due to being filled with Indian's, Filipino's and so on.
They say that Daesh is the prove for the "Real" Islam yet the most people who have been effected by ISIS is us Muslims...*cough* Syria & Iraq.

It also bother's me how people take Saudi Arabia as the place who represent all Muslims & Arabs and Islam itself...like i'm talking about the Laws. For example, lately they decided to block pretty much every free voice/video communication. So things like Skype, what's app calls and even some video games voice chat are blocked. Now that's definitely their government being greedy and doesn't have to do with Islam. But do you know what other laws that doesn't have to do with Islam over there?

Women driving. I heard plenty of people believing that Islam is the reason why women can't drive to which i react... To be honest, i believe there's far more problems with our government along with some Muslims than Islam itself. Also one more thing, why people often mention "Religion of peace" whatever they talk about Islam? The idea of spamming the word "Religion of peace" to everyone's face seems to be stupid to me. Whatever it's for positive or negative thing. I don't go all around Muslim's who skip prays (or do any "sin") or non Muslims screaming ISLAM IS A RELIGION OF PEACE to them as if i forcing them to be one. Just call it a religion, no need to claim or deny "Peace" thing.

Okay i'm sorry if i sound rude or if my post doesn't make any sense but i was slowly getting more angry everytime i see people believe that Muslims want to kill everyone and call them animals yet he/she wants for the same thing to happen to us just because we believe in something. I feel like Muslims are currently the most hated people on earth, more so than any other religion, pretty much any race or even Bi/Homosexual people.

Sorry guys

Hmm I'm sorry you feel that way. I can only speak for what I see in GTP and real life and say thankfully that isn't the case here but can understand if your situation is different where you live/what sites you visit. I have noticed anti-Islam sentiment for undue reason and scaremongering, don't get me wrong, but I think most of the people I know are pretty tolerant. Some may say we're bending over backwards a bit too much in tolerating other religions:

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world...stmas-carol-holy-night-fears-offend-religions

 

[ECGadget]

Why on Earth should a belief need a war plan!!? That's completely nonsensical.

It's also very much beside the point. Even if we accept that for some reason a belief should have a memorandum for rules of engagement (I feel ridiculous even stating that as a hypothetical), that says nothing about whether or not Islam explains itself properly. If you made a post on GTP and it was written in such a way that it was difficult to interpret your intended message, I expect you would clarify by editing the original, or by submitting further explanatory posts, or both. That's logical behaviour. If a government wrote up it's rules of engagement, but it was too problematic for people to interpret the intended message, that government would no doubt re-write it, to a small or large extent. That's logical behaviour. Why should we have to swallow the line that Islam has no problems, when standards for clarity fall way below accepted logic, and self-correction is non-existent?

It doesn't matter how well behaved Muslims become, there will still be a latent evil waiting to rear it's head (just as there is with Christianity et al) unless changes with clarification are "hard-wired" in to the core teachings - especially in regards to the Qur'an.

Have it remain immovable, and counter to basic human logic, and I cannot accept it as benign.

Apologies for the late reply. I don't have much to really say at the moment, but I will try.
People fail to understand the Islam is NOT a belief system. It is a way of life. Belief is only its foundation. Islam has guides for everything, and I mean that goes down to even things like drinking water. And you've said this twice but I disagree that it is beside the point. We were talking about clarifications and what not, correct? I was using this because this tends to be the extreme. HOWEVER, you have got a pretty good point about further explanatory posts. Which incidentally DO exist. It literally breaks down things into the most basic of basic terms. For example, and I like using this one because this is one used against Islam often, the verse of the Quran and the surrounding verses which state:

'And Kill Them Where They Stand'

First of all, and I have said this before too, as a verse on its own it makes little sense anyway. Kill who? A certain type of person? A Disbeliever? A person of colour? A woman? Who? Anyway, explore the verses surrounding it, it becomes clear that the instruction to kill (Katal by the way, not Jihad as people seem to believe) is to the disbelievers. Oh dear, so now the Quran here has a CLEAR instruction to kill the disbelievers. Or does it? Well, when you look at the explanatory texts (not your everyday google to find info stuff) there is an explanation to this very clearly. The command to kill is there, that is not doubtful, but the command to kill is explained to be:

During the treaty of Hudaibiyah, when the Makkans allowed the Muslims to visit the Kabah to perform Hajj. The trouble was that the Muslims were afraid that the Makkans would break the treaty and attack them. So they asked what they are meant to do if that happens. The order came from Heaven that IF they attacked you, you were allowed to retaliate and kill them where they stood, even though the Muslims were in the state of 'Ihraam'. The subsequent order was a stark warning that despite this, the Muslims were not to strike first, nor were they to take a single action further against the Makkans if they were to stop.

So, as you can see, this verse which is so often used against Islam refers to a very specific incident with a very specific instruction set and a very special case. So the logical pattern is followed. Here is a verse that could be interpreted pretty badly, so the scholars (over centuries I may add) have clarified it with lengthy explanations. So can we say that clarification IS provided? I have not once come across a core teaching from any respectable scholar that teaches anything outside of peace. Remember that mass murder at that nightclub in Orlando? Remember the response that Mufti Ismail Menk put on YouTube to that? This man, who is one of the most respectable scholars in Islam, has clarified under no uncertain terms that killing is NOT allowed in Islam without due cause (and by this I mean in defence, and through the proper means and as a last resort etc etc). And this mass slaughter was forbidden.


So you cannot say the explanatory texts are non existant. They exist. I may not go sit in the mosque all day, or attend lectures or stuff like that, and even I know there is pretty much zero justification for killing. So the so called 'true followers of Islam' must have either attended some pretty shoddy places to learn, or truly have not got a clue as to the explanations.

And again I will quote a saying of the Prophet (authentic and strong):
"He who kills is as though he has killed all of mankind. He who saves is as though he has saved all of mankind"

 

[LeMansAid]

People fail to understand the Islam is NOT a belief system. It is a way of life. Belief is only its foundation. Islam has guides for everything, and I mean that goes down to even things like drinking water. And you've said this twice but I disagree that it is beside the point. We were talking about clarifications and what not, correct? I was using this because this tends to be the extreme. HOWEVER, you have got a pretty good point about further explanatory posts. Which incidentally DO exist.

Hippy culture is a way of life, surf culture is a way of life.......... Where does the need for rules of engagement come in with a way of life?

The opportunity is there to have a vastly clearer Qur'an. I'm so far assuming that you would leave it untouched, and for supernatural reasons. It cannot be expected that non-believers will account for that supernatural aspect, in which case non-believers are left looking at a people who endorse a status quo of sub par clarity for effectively no reason at all.

It is beside the point. It would be just plain silly for a government that crafted a needlessly esoteric Constitution, that was being exploited, to simply hope that others would take it upon themselves to attempt to explain the intent of the passages, but not alter the actual source of the confusion. Equally, it doesn't fly for any religion to choose to do basically the same thing.

 

[DLR_Mysterion]

This man, who is one of the most respectable scholars in Islam, has clarified under no uncertain terms that killing is NOT allowed in Islam without due cause (and by this I mean in defence, and through the proper means and as a last resort etc etc). And this mass slaughter was forbidden.

Hmm ok if I grant you that, then it follows that Muhammad was not persecuted in Mecca, culminating in the Hijrah. For in this list of killings ordered/supported by Muhammad:

https://wikiislam.net/wiki/List_of_Killings_Ordered_or_Supported_by_Muhammad

You only have to go to the second killing to see that someone was killed for:

"opposing Muhammad through poetry"

If that's acceptable, then surely the Quraysh were validated in their disliking of Muhammad when he:
- said that Islam was the only true religion
- called their religions false
- stated their ancestors were going to hell since they weren't Muslims?

I mean, if you can support the execution of someone for writing offensive poetry, you must be a hypocrite to then lead your followers to believe you were persecuted for doing the same and worse a few years before

 

[Carbonox]

So Istanbul had a club shooting at New Year's, with the attackers wearing Santa outfits...

As was found out not long after, the trail leads to a familiar direction.

 

[mister dog]

1400 years Islam has been trying to reach its ultimate goal, which is to dominate the world. 1400 years of massacres and forced slavery or oppression of millions of people for that very purpose.

Dar al Islam vs Dar al Harb (house of Islam vs the house of war) is what it comes down to. Any means permitted to eventually conquer said house of war.

Two times the Muslims were stopped before they conquered the whole of Europe (once in France and once in Vienna). I'm expecting the third attempt in less than 20 years. Not an invading war like before but a civil one this time between the divided communities that are living alongside each other in parallel societies already.

Doomsday thinking maybe, but if you look at history it's something which is to be expected. The division is already increasing on a daily base and it will pull more and more moderate people towards the extremist side (in both camps).

Let's hope i'm wrong though.

 

[xyloscissor]

@mister dog

I can tell you as a Christian(I'm not touching this muslim deal on purpose, I'm a wuss lol) we are also wanting to rule the world, we have no reason to be violent whatsoever however. You will hear some of say things such as "we are waiting for our king to return" right?

I will tell you what that means, waiting for Jesus to come back and defeat all the oppressors, that is what it means to me at least. When I think a bit more I say to myself only, "well damn I am part of the body of christ so I guess I'm waiting til the rest of the parts grow in" we need our 'head' which is Jesus, all that means is we want the brain to be all that is correct.

Not sure why I wanted to tell you that but there ya go, I do no believe there is direct violence in religion and I would never treat a muslim any different than any other man.

 

[mister dog]

I'm not really familiar with the bible, but seeing you talk about Christianity in particular that would relate to the new testament, which isn't particularly violent nor does it state that the world has to be converted using any means possible?

That's the major difference I think.

 

[xyloscissor]

The only means to a Christian is the return of Christ. Well, there is spreading the word which has already been done, and other then that, simple living by example.

 

[mister dog]

The only means to a Christian is the return of Christ. Well, there is spreading the word which has already been done, and other then that, simple living by example.

Quite a difference I think

 

[xyloscissor]

It could very well be, when you consider the spirit above the flesh perspectives change. Obviously I do not promote violence of any sort in any condition as it's not my place.

I know for a fact that the bible speaks of violence, some of it in the past aimed at a different people at a different time, I wonder if that could be said for the .. what is it .. the Quaran?

I can only hope that is the case because I have no reason to study another's book

 

[sumbrownkid]

It could very well be, when you consider the spirit above the flesh perspectives change. Obviously I do not promote violence of any sort in any condition as it's not my place.

I know for a fact that the bible speaks of violence, some of it in the past aimed at a different people at a different time, I wonder if that could be said for the .. what is it .. the Quaran?

I can only hope that is the case because I have no reason to study another's book

Then how can you argue properly if you don't even bother to study it?

"Oh hey teach, I know there's a math exam, but I like English more, so I won't study up on my Algebra".

That's pretty much what I got from your last sentence. Seriously you gave me a headache with that logic.

 

[eiriksmil]

Meh.. Fighting over religion is getting old.. It's 2017, science works and religion doesn't..

I do respect people who believe.. But extremist, ignorant people be extremist and ignorant wherever they live and whatever religion they have.

 

[High-Test]

Hold on. I'm Jewish, but isn't the return of Jesus also the signal that the Islamic end times are nigh? Isn't the Mahdi supposed to warn that Jesus/Issa is coming back and that things are hitting the fan?

My view of Islam is positive. My view of those who would take the name of God for their own selfish and hateful purposes is entirely negative.

 

[xyloscissor]

Then how can you argue properly if you don't even bother to study it?

"Oh hey teach, I know there's a math exam, but I like English more, so I won't study up on my Algebra".

That's pretty much what I got from your last sentence. Seriously you gave me a headache with that logic.

Good thing for me I'm not arguing anything then right? I stated an opinion and tbh I will give the religion all the breaks I can muster because even without reading the text I auto assume the followers are not ignorant fools.

 

[mister dog]

My view of Islam is positive.

You are aware of the many negative references about Jewish people in the Koran and the Hadiths right?

Example:

The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said: "The Hour will not come until the Muslims fight the Jews and kill them. The Jews will hide behind rocks and trees, and the rocks and trees will say: ‘O Muslim, O slave of Allah! There is a Jews behind me, come and kill him!’ (All the trees will say this except for the Gharqad (box-thorn), for it is one of the trees of the Jews.’" (Reported by Imam Ahmad; it is a Sahih Hadith).

From:

http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?320607-O-Muslim!-There-is-a-Jew-hiding-behind-me

 

[TenEightyOne]

You are aware of the many negative references about Jewish people in the Koran and the Hadiths right?

In that case it's probably a good thing that a small proportion of nutters take religious texts entirely literally.