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Islam - What's your view on it?
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Scaff
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There are differences. The bottom 2 are accidents, and the top 2 are being worked to prevent same occurance (ot to mention this doesn't count any non-death injuries that were caused), most terror attacks are linked with Isis which perform under their Islamic beliefcs, attempting to either change Islam to be more peaceful or restricting any sort of Islamic people from coming as fear that more will occur.
Alos this doesn't apply any other crimes commited by name of Islam that is massively existant in Germany like gang rape.
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That's a fair point itself, but not what I was talking about.
I was talking about the percentage of terror attacks being commited by the percentage of population.
For example, if x percent causes x percent, x is more or less likely to do x.
Scaff
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I've already addressed this point earlier in the thread. Terrorism is cyclical, back in the 70s and 80s it's was (in Europe as an example) mainly left wing and nationalist terrorism, and was far more frequent. Right now Islamic terrorism is certainly a problem, but right wing and nationalist terrorism is on the rise around the world. Which begs the question are we coming out of one cycle and into another.
Now in regard to crime being committed in the name of Islam, while some will certainly try and use it as a defense (the most recent example of such I saw was not Islamic), I think that this is conflating the religion of the criminal with the religion. Now if we are going to do that, then Christians are in trouble as well (and before someone quote the Koran be aware I can quote biblical text that allow the same).
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I think it is hard to ignore this as being an Islamic issue because ever since Germany opened its borders, it has been a 🤬 show of crimes and terror threats and attacks. It is likely that some are just foul people to begin with who are hiding behind their religion but several of the actions done are equal to what is said on the Quran.
Scaff
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Numerous examples of which have been grossly exaggerated and/or simply made up, nor does a correlation equal causality. France has been nowhere near as open in this regard and yet has suffered far worse attacks, Sweden has been far more open and has had one attack.
Please note this is in regard to terrorist attacks, not crime in general, which I will address next.
You missed out the third situation, in that these are people committing crimes with nothing to do with religion, and not attempting to hide behind it. In other words its simply crime and the religion of the person has nothing at all to do with it, keep in mind that its often the media that forces these links, not he reality on the ground.
Nor is hiding behind religion unique to any one faith, as these 'nice' chaps in the US have shown recently:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...defense-in-rape-trial/?utm_term=.09de8648e768
Or this one:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...r-the-right/?tid=a_inl&utm_term=.781241f542de
Or this lovely book that has resulted in the death of a number of childeren:
https://www.babble.com/mom/to-train-up-a-child-teaches-punishment-that-kills-kids/
Or the children that die because parents refuse medical treatment on religous grounds:
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...us-sect-child-mortality-refusing-medical-help
Can we extrapolate from these that every Christian who commits a crime is either hiding behind the religion or who's actions are 'equal to what is in the Bible'? No, it would be absurd, yet by limiting it to only two situations with regard to Muslims that's exactly what you are doing.
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Nor is it hard to get from Northern Ireland to Ireland. That border is a specific case where opening a border has led to a huge drop in terrorist activity. The caveat is that post Brexit one of those countries will be in the EU and one won't, we'll have to see how that works out. "Badly", is my instinct.
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Do we even have any details on where they came from exactly? Map wise the only way they can go through is Germany and Italy, I highly doubt they're coming from Italy especially when Germany borders are easier to get through.
Need to be more specific. I'm saying that some of them do seem to be related to religion
Scaff
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Actually we do, and the majority were not immigrants or refugees. Those that were mainly came directly to France or more commonly via Holland.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents_in_France#21st_century
It was quite specific.
"Can we extrapolate from these that every Christian who commits a crime is either hiding behind the religion or who's actions are 'equal to what is in the Bible'?"
I gave my view, that to do so would be absurd. Yet that is exactly what you did with regard to Muslims.
As I see it either you don't agree with this, in which case why do you hold a double standard with regard the two religions; or you do agree with this, in which case why are you not treating other faiths in the same way and making an automatic link between crime and faith with them?
DLR_Mysterion
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I'm confused, she wasn't speaking against Islam?
You may be confusing her with Ayaan Hirsi Ali, who actually does receive death threats, and has for decades now.
Of course, but again... proportionality.
I never said there weren't atrocities carried out by other faiths. The point was over the years there's been a trend for violence from Muslims more than the others. None of the links you provided were even from this year.
It's not harmless, look up what the actual feminists in Iran thought of their capitulation.
I dunno about that....
http://www.answering-islam.org/Silas/femalecaptives.htm
Hmmmm depending on where you are the polls of Muslims might disagree with you on that.Imari
No but I'm trying to show what's going on currently. Which leads to a very important question as to where do Christians go if they were to be persecuted in the future.Imari
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I meant me, sorry, I should've been more specific on that too
I always believe any cruel act done based on religion is wrong, whether it be Christianity or Islam. As both do have several disturbing stuff that isn't fit for life now even if the Bible does try to change to modernize it.
However a difference is that Christianity stopped taking legal power long ago but extreme Islam is still going around on a political gender and has pretty much invaded Europe now, this is why I think Islam needs to take higher priority and we shouldn't not do anything about and let these things happens just because doing something about is seen as just being cruel to all of Islam.
Scaff
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I 100% agree, but what makes you think that no attempt exists in Islam to modernise (and with that you may want to look at what has happened every time an Islamic country moved towards that during the 20th century - Iran would be a good example to start with as would be Afghanistan)?
No they really haven't, and elements of religion attempt to impose laws to suit themselves, Israel does it regularly, as does the Christian conservatives in the US.
To use DLR's favorite phrase, that reaction needs to be proportionate and if its not it makes the situation worse, not better.
The percentage of Muslims in Europe (or the world for that matter) who have carried out attacks is tiny, and to then claim it as an invasion and view the majority as a problem for the actions of the minority is not effective and actually likely to play into the terrorists hands (something the British learnt the hard way during the Troubles - disproportionate reactions lead to a direct increase in IRA membership).
So what proportion does it need to get to before it can be raised as a concern?
Oh and the situation in Myanmar is very much happening right now.
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Who cares what Iranian feminists think? The Swedish government does not exist to protect them. That's what the Iranian government exists for. I hear it doesn't do a very good job, but that's not the Swedes problem.
You know that there are similar passages in the Bible, right?
What? Muslims might disagree that most Christians ignore the edict to stone homos? What are you talking about, Willis?
Where does anyone go if they're persecuted in the future? I don't see the value in limiting the discussion to Christians, unless you're really intending to imply that what happens to Christians is somehow more important than what happens to the rest of us.
Which would be funny, because that's the exact mindset that let's Islamic extremists justify taking over the world to themselves. It's fine, because they don't see non-Muslims as equals. We're all lesser beings, like animals, to be dominated or slaughtered.
I think you're not as different as you'd like to think.
ISIS is not exactly a dominant force within Islam. It's still a fringe extremist group.
Scaff
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Umm ISIS has at most 200,000 members limited in the vast majority to an ever decreasing part of two countries. Islam has around 1.6 billion followers.
Are you honestly saying that 1.6 billion people are under the control and forced influence (which is what the term stronghold implies) of 0.0125% of its followers?
I work with a number of Muslims who are as modern as you like in terms of views, outlook and even observance of faith. I've traveled to a large number of Muslim majority countries who are not 'under' the strong hold of ISIS. Most of the people fighting ISIS (by a significant margin) are Muslim.
Explain to me how ISIS turned Iran from a country that had a democratically elected secular leader in the 1950's to a CIA controlled monarchy with a good line in human rights abuses?
How did ISIS turn a moderate and increasingly secular Afghanistan into a mire of a proxy cold war battlefield following a Russian backed Communist coup and US backed extremist resistance (the same people who we started to call Terrorists when then then turned on us)?
How did ISIS cause the single largest mass migration of people and the resulting death of millions along religious lines following the partition of India?
How did ISIS cause the Ottoman empire (one that legalized homosexuality long, long before the west did) to turn into a series of small states with puppet leaders or European colonies that had natural assets stripped away and the rights of the indigenous populations reduced to that of second class subjects?
ISIS is most certainly dragging the parts of the countries they hold control over backwards, but they are taking advantage of power vacuums and countries that had already suffered a 'de-modernisation' in a range of other ways.
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The point was around why people overestimate muslim population, on which I gave my opinion (= too many muslims in the news) and yes by 'trouble' I mean mainly terrorism/crime.
When I posted the poll I thought that someone will interpret poll results as general anti-immigration sentiment which happen to be mainly muslim recently, but I guess not. ;-)
So these right-wing and nationalist terrorist said, 'bout that time, eh chaps and went into another cycle which is simply bound to happen ... nobody is giving them any reason by any chance?
Scaff
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But you don't think that a combination of real, over-exagerated and outright fantasy in the news, leading to the impression that the population is four times larger than it is could be a factor in negative perceptions that are not based entirely in fact?
OK - so you are happy to tie all crime into terrorism, so does that make Islam responsible for shoplifting if its carried out by a Muslim?
The reasons are many and varied, some are based around genuine concerns and some are based around myth and outright lies. You seem to still be ignoring the fact that I gave you a link to hundreds of news reports from the UK tabloids alone that are proven examples of either gross exaggeration or outright lies that are part of the fuel for this.
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I have a list:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents_linked_to_ISIL#2017
One thing to note is that for there has been 3 already in Germany.
I tried looking for a comparison between ISIS and other groups but it simply narrowed down to muslim vs. non-muslim from a FBI survey, as if everyone who isn't Muslim is in one group, especially since the FBI survey also counts property damage as terrorist attacks: http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/articles/loonwatch-94-percent.aspx
https://muslimstatistics.wordpress....es-in-first-six-months-of-2016-780-every-day/
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You could have looked in the See Also links at the bottom of that wiki page. Let's look at the Wiki page for terrorist attacks in Dec 2016. There sure are a lot of Islamic State ones, but they're not a majority. And you'll note that in fact most of the "terrorist" incidents are in places that are either undergoing civil wars or outright wars.
I'm not exactly sure that equating violence in a civil war zone with violence in an otherwise peaceful and stable country is useful.
The reality is that a lot of majority Muslim countries are having civil wars or are right on the edge. We could get into how a lot of them can essentially be traced back to US or European intervention, but that's a different kettle of fish.
Random wordpress blog aside, they're not linking police statistics, they're simply taking it from the Gatestone Institute. Which has in the past been accused of being promoting anti-Islamic sentiment.
https://www.thenation.com/article/sugar-mama-anti-muslim-hate/
I don't know how true it is, but it's food for thought that maybe that isn't the most unbiased source. One can find opposing viewpoints as well.
https://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/09/...into-national-news-and-debate-in-germany.html
http://www.dw.com/en/study-contradicts-efforts-to-link-migrants-to-crime/a-19390414
The real question is do refugees commit a significantly higher amount of crimes than "native" citizens? Some refugees will commit crimes, that's just the nature of the world, and arguably depending on the support networks that are in place they may be force to commit minor crimes simply to survive. But that aside, are the immigrants actually making Germany or any country that accepts them more dangerous?
A lot of people seem happy to say "well, yeah, obviously" without actually looking any deeper to see it that is truly the case or whether it's just the media blowing things out of proportion like the media does.
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How does that apply to terrorist attacks being more on other religious groups, even if it is in a civil war the attacks are still very much linked ith ISIS.
After what you said I went a bit deeper and found this to support what your saying: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_and_crime_in_Germany
While crimes are increased turns out it's mostly theft and fraud (which is still completely wrong and out of control but compared to homicides not that much).
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However if it's a civil war then depending on the view that you take something can either be a terrorist attack or an attempt to defend your country from oppressors.
Something like the ISIS Paris attacks takes some real mind-bending in order to justify as a defence of your country from oppressors.
I mean, take the Iraq civil war that's going on. It's between ISIS and the puppet government that the US installed after they forcibly toppled Saddam Hussain, and it's pretty hard to distinguish which is the lesser of the two evils for the country there. I mean, it makes Saddam Hussain's rule look pretty desirable. He did some fairly awful things, but at least it was a mostly stable country and the vast majority of people didn't have to worry about being blown up or shot on a daily basis.
Frankly, I think the government of a country has to be really, really terrible to warrant other countries stepping in to depose them. The decades of civil war that inevitably follow in the power vacuum are worse than any but the most tyrannical ruler.
With the amount of people hating Muslims on social media, i bet it would be easier for Da'esh to brainwash children and recruit them. All they need is to find kids who's easy to anger, a bit weak in their Islamic believes and then they simply starts showing to them "Oh look, the entire west wants you to collapse and die. They believe that they allow freedom and free speech to everyone yet they want us muslims to be removed from the existent....etc" Pretty much motivate those kids into thinking they should join in because it's the right thing to do in their minds.
So people complain about refugees coming to Europe and how they ruining it? That they "support" Da'esh/IS? Oh wait, isn't those refugees are the same people who escaped from Da'esh and Syrian government?
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So people complain about refugees coming to Europe and how they ruining it? That they "support" Da'esh/IS? Oh wait, isn't those refugees are the same people who escaped from Da'esh and Syrian government?
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It hurts to go random places on the internet, totally not related to politics or religion only to see someone talking 🤬 about us because we're "backward thinking people". I went on some gaming related forums, Reddit and Youtube talking about video games, cars and The Grand tour but right when someone or something related to middle east... immediately i see comments about how we're rapists, Pedophilia's, terrorists, that we slave people, sand n:censored: that we should be removed from life because we're threatening to the rest of the world. Like what the 🤬 did i do wrong? what did i do in my life to hate you? did i harm you? Islam and Muslims are now at it's weakest point of life despite having far more followers than before. People aren't even religious any more and we will easily end up losing if a war provoke between us and other countries. I'm not welcomed in this world anymore, i'm sorry for going offtopic but i'm just...can't take it this. 
If it weren't for me believing that suicide is a sin, i would have probably ended my life a long time ago.
If it weren't for me believing that suicide is a sin, i would have probably ended my life a long time ago.
