Islam - What's your view on it?

[PocketZeven]

Shouldn't the first set of data be on those who died from Christian/Muslim expansion?

Relevance?

Let me just stop you there....

You're saying, correct me if I'm wrong, that population groups don't exist.

And you use the fact that a genotype of a White European being more similar to a Korean than another Asian as evidence?

Sorry for borrowing Nic Cage but....

Let's look at the 100m final for the 2012 Olympics in London:

Notice anything?

Apart from the disproportionate number of garish green track shoes (I have yellow so I can't really complain), the whole field are of African descent. Is it racist to point this out? Would it be racist to say that this was probably down to a mixture of genetics and environment? Not really. It wouldn't be a surprise to find out that the type of muscle fibres found in these athletes will be of stark contrast to the average person, or the average long distance runner (Type 1 vs Type 2).

Let's look at this:

Out of your friends, who is most likely to exhibit that change in appearance after a few alcoholic drinks?

The answer is East Asians, because of a specific allele mutation of genes sequencing aldehyde dehydrogenase (one of the enzymes that breaks down alcohol) found more commonly in....you guessed it, East Asians (incidentally it's the basis for the use of the drug disulfram in alcoholics)

As for general guidance, you might remember @UKMikey and me discussing high blood pressure management, and how this is different between ethnicities. Well I guess ethnicity is important if even NICE base their guidelines on this:

https://www.nice.org.uk/guidance/ng...ions#starting-antihypertensive-drug-treatment

When choosing antihypertensive drug treatment for adults of black African or African–Caribbean family origin, consider an angiotensin II receptor blocker (ARB), in preference to an angiotensin-converting enzyme (ACE) inhibitor

Or I guess you can take your "scientific" conclusions and present them to NICE or the BMA or whoever at their next conference..



*A word of caution. Medicine is evolving to give us more personalised levels of medicine, and even Watson himself is an anomoly compared to the general white European population in certain regards since they state that with regards to a variant that speeds up metabolism of some toxins:

"It turns out that Watson’s variants are very rare in people of European descent, but very common in China."

but it's definite that the future belongs to individualised treatments that are tailored to our specific genomes rather than a population based guideline.

So hat is your conclusion? Asians get flushed when drinking? So what?

 

[Scaff]

Shouldn't the first set of data be on those who died from Christian/Muslim expansion?

Given that 600 or so years passed from the first Christian expansion (or 350 years if you want to be Conservative and wait for the real surge and violence to start) to the First Muslim one, and then a further 400 years from that to the Christian expansion back into the Middle East I would say they all need to be looked at separately.

I also did a reverse image look up on your 100m line up, and reason why you ignored all of the other lineup photos, particularly the ones from the women's events? Would that be because they also undermine your claim as well, particularly the women's evens, where black athletes are in the minority.

So hat is your conclusion? Asians get flushed when drinking? So what?

My mum does too, she's not Asian.

Unsurprisingly it's nowhere near as straightforward as he likes to make out either.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3860432/

I've countered the others as well, but it's pointless, he's red pilled beyond reason on this, as consession who disprove his race and intelligence position, and that just seems to be his hill to die on.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Notice anything?

Oh, oh, I know this one sir!

It's you going on about scientifimical differences between races and referring to medical science as "we" but then saying that black people from across the entirety of Africa and the European, Carribean and American disaporas all look the same!

Do I get a gold star?

 

[baldgye]

Oh, oh, I know this one sir!

It's you going on about scientifimical differences between races and referring to medical science as "we" but then saying that black people from across the entirety of Africa and the European, Carribean and American disaporas all look the same!

Do I get a gold star?

Careful asking for stars in this thread mate

 

[HenrySwanson]

Relevance?

Why would you omit this?

I also did a reverse image look up on your 100m line up, and reason why you ignored all of the other lineup photos, particularly the ones from the women's events? Would that be because they also undermine your claim as well, particularly the women's evens, where black athletes are in the minority.

It's....erm....from the wikipedia page for the 100m?

Do they have some sort of vested interest or something?

Let's first look at the people who have broken the 10 second barrier in 100m:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/10-second_barrier

Nearly all are of Black African descent..

Now let's look at the 100m World Record breakers since the IAAF required fully automatic timing (1977):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Men's_100_metres_world_record_progression

Every single one has been of Black African descent.

EDIT: Wait hold on....this is a picture of the 100m Women's final from 2012:

In what world does that "undermine" my argument

My mum does too, she's not Asian.

You do understand how probability and averages work right....right?

Unsurprisingly it's nowhere near as straightforward as he likes to make out either.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3860432/

Oh what is going on here....

As will be discussed later in this article, the alleles encoding the different ADH and ALDH variants are unevenly distributed among ethnic groups.

I've countered the others as well, but it's pointless, he's red pilled beyond reason on this, as consession who disprove his race and intelligence position, and that just seems to be his hill to die on.

Where?!

Where is the scientific inquiry?!

Even your biggest "gotcha" in this recent exchange doesn't make sense:

Oh and that the gap can be explained by a wealth of other factors that you have repeatedly ignored. Which is odd as the article you just linked to points that out! Did you actually bother to read it past the title?

I ask because I'm going to enjoy seeing you explain this exact quote from your source:

View attachment 894855

Oh dear, you seem to have self owned!

My original post:

Even the American Psychological Association, which believes such a gap would be explained by environmental factors, still acknowledges that there is a gap

(Bold emphasis added in the edit)

If you bothered to read that then you would (I assumed) have acknowledged that I read the part where....you know....they disagree with me. The whole point of using it was to show that those who believe differently still recognise that there is a gap - something I really wouldn't think needed pointing out but....well....

No it doesn't, it specifically says that it's a flawed approach because race isn't a good enough tool to use and that it needs to be approached on an individual genetic level.

Did you read where I said in the mean time

Because now you're arguing against NICE guidelines with regards to blood pressure management and, off the top of my head, international guidelines in how the medical community measure eGFR (a marker for kidney function).

Good Lord....

 

[Scaff]

It's....erm....from the wikipedia page for the 100m?

Do they have some sort of vested interest or something?

I know it's from Wiki, I pointed that out!

Let's first look at the people who have broken the 10 second barrier in 100m:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/10-second_barrier

Nearly all are of Black African descent..

Now let's look at the 100m World Record breakers since the IAAF required fully automatic timing (1977):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Men's_100_metres_world_record_progression

Every single one has been of Black African descent.

EDIT: Wait hold on....this is a picture of the 100m Women's final from 2012:

In what world does that "undermine" my argument

Already answered, but it doesn't stop your cherry picking does it now.

You do understand how probability and averages work right....right?

I do indeed, feel free to explain how you intend to use that to prove that a link between race and intelligence.

Oh what is going on here....

You do know that uneven doesn't support your case for a direct correlation between race and intelligence?

Where?!

Where is the scientific inquiry?!

Its been repeatedly posted, that you have ignored it everytime doesn't invalidate that.

Even your biggest "gotcha" in this recent exchange doesn't make sense:


My original post:


(Bold emphasis added in the edit)

If you bothered to read that then you would (I assumed) have acknowledged that I read the part where....you know....they disagree with me. The whole point of using it was to show that those who believe differently still recognise that there is a gap - something I really wouldn't think needed pointing out but....well....

Did you read where I said in the mean time

So your own source disagrees with you, you acknowledge that, but still claim that a causal link exists between race and intelligence?

How on earth do you rationalise that?

I mean not a single person here has said that a gap doesn't exist, you however seem to be the one attempting to link it to race (which every peer reviewed source has said is a factor outside of race.

Because now you're arguing against NICE guidelines with regards to blood pressure management and, off the top of my head, international guidelines in how the medical community measure eGFR (a marker for kidney function).

No I'm not, because every medical organisation on earth knows this is a developing field and that still doesn't support your claim of a causal link between race and intelligence.

The American Society of Human Genetics.

"Genetics demonstrates that humans cannot be divided into biologically distinct subcategories. Although there are clear observable correlations between variation in the human genome and how individuals identify by race, the study of human genetics challenges the traditional concept of different races of humans as biologically separate and distinct. This is validated by many decades of research, including recent examples.1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6

Most human genetic variation is distributed as a gradient, so distinct boundaries between population groups cannot be accurately assigned. There is considerable genetic overlap among members of different populations. Such patterns of genome variation are explained by patterns of migration and mixing of different populations throughout human history.7 In this way, genetics exposes the concept of “racial purity” as scientifically meaningless.

It follows that there can be no genetics-based support for claiming one group as superior to another. Although a person’s genetics influences their phenotypic characteristics, and self-identified race might be influenced by physical appearance, race itself is a social construct. Any attempt to use genetics to rank populations demonstrates a fundamental misunderstanding of genetics."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6218810/

http://sitn.hms.harvard.edu/flash/2017/science-genetics-reshaping-race-debate-21st-century/

Good Lord....

Which one?

 

[HenrySwanson]

I know it's from Wiki, I pointed that out!

So then what does this post mean:

I also did a reverse image look up on your 100m line up, and reason why you ignored all of the other lineup photos, particularly the ones from the women's events? Would that be because they also undermine your claim as well, particularly the women's evens, where black athletes are in the minority.

These are the "lineup photos" in the article:

First one - that I can't embed - a video of women sprinters from the women's 100M Final – 28th Summer Universiade 2015 (I tell ya, that's right up there with the Diamond League, Commonwealth Games and Olympics)

2nd pic in the article: Random sprinters in an empty stadium....

A 2008 Olympics Mens 100m race

A Golden League Women's meet in 2007

Paralympic 2012 Men's event

Those are all the pictures in that article.

So I want you to tell me which pictures I ignored since according to you:

I also did a reverse image look up on your 100m line up, and reason why you ignored all of the other lineup photos, particularly the ones from the women's events? Would that be because they also undermine your claim as well, particularly the women's evens, where black athletes are in the minority.

I'll ask these questions:

1) Which of these photos undermines my claim
2) Which of these photos shows a women's event where black athletes are in the minority

 

[Scaff]

So then what does this post mean:



These are the "lineup photos" in the article:

First one - that I can't embed - a video of women sprinters from the women's 100M Final – 28th Summer Universiade 2015 (I tell ya, that's right up there with the Diamond League, Commonwealth Games and Olympics)

2nd pic in the article: Random sprinters in an empty stadium....

A 2008 Mens 100m race

A Golden League Women's meet in 2007

Paralympic 2012 Men's event

Those are all the pictures in that article.

So I want you to tell me which pictures I ignored since according to you:



I'll ask these questions:

1) Which of these photos undermines my claim
2) Which of these photos shows a women's event where black athletes are in the minority

Well the pictures above do, as does the video! Or are you literally going to try and focus on the fact I said pictures and not pictures and video?

I do however notice that you have omitted every part of my post that undermines every part of you argument.

You are literally trying to use pictures from one sporting event/discipline as a counter to peer reviewed papers from The American Society of Human Genetics!

Cherry picked pictures from wiki over Scientific concensus, that's the argument you are using.

 

[baldgye]

Who thought that a thread about Islam would turn into a racist trying to prove that black people are stupid by looking at pictures of sprinters... I mean, talk about plot twists!

 

[UKMikey]

Who thought that a thread about Islam would turn into a racist trying to prove that black people are stupid by looking at pictures of sprinters... I mean, talk about plot twists!

Today I learned that running fast proves you are genetically stoopid. Somebody tell Lord Coe.

When they said "race-related" I never realised they were talking about athletic competition.

 

[Scaff]

Today I learned that running fast proves you are genetically stoopid. Somebody tell Lord Coe.

When they said "race-related" I never realised they were talking about athletic competition.

As if to prove it here's a link for a foot race catagory, with an image from an event in North Africa...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultramarathon

... Look at that list of the fastest people by classification.

Really shows me.

 

[HenrySwanson]

Posting in the human genetics thread since that seems the more appropriate forum.

 

[PocketZeven]

Why would you omit this?

I am confused. What exactly did I omit?

 

[HenrySwanson]

I am confused. What exactly did I omit?

The first example you use are the Crusades - surely if we are looking at casualties caused by killing in the name of religion we would look at those killed during the expansion of those religions as a starting point?

 

[Scaff]

The first example you use are the Crusades - surely if we are looking at casualties caused by killing in the name of religion we would look at those killed during the expansion of those religions as a starting point?

As I already said.

Given that 600 or so years passed from the first Christian expansion (or 350 years if you want to be Conservative and wait for the real surge and violence to start) to the First Muslim one, and then a further 400 years from that to the Christian expansion back into the Middle East I would say they all need to be looked at separately.

 

[FoRiZon]

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/23/opinion/islam-religion.html

 

[Dotini]

Da Vinci masterpiece of Jesus holding a crystal ball now revealed on Saudi Prince's yacht.

(reference)

 

[Dennisch]

That has nothing to do with religion in any way. That painting was sold for 450 million, making it nothing more than a ridiculous statement from Bin Salman to show the world how much money he has, and probably a compensation for his tiny penis.

 

[Dotini]

That has nothing to do with religion in any way. That painting was sold for 450 million, making it nothing more than a ridiculous statement from Bin Salman to show the world how much money he has, and probably a compensation for his tiny penis.

I think it is funny an image of the penultimate Islamic prophet - figurative images of the prophets normally being eschewed in Islam - winds up on an Islamic super yacht. I also think it's funny Jesus is holding a crystal ball.

 

[Dennisch]

Ah, your thinking goes that way. In that case, as I said many moons ago, it's all the same silly nonsense.

 

[TenEightyOne]

I think it is funny an image of the penultimate Islamic prophet - figurative images of the prophets normally being eschewed in Islam - winds up on an Islamic super yacht. I also think it's funny Jesus is holding a crystal ball.

It raises interesting questions about authenticity, how many of the original master's brushstrokes need to remain untouched for you to still be looking at a genuine Da Vinci?

an Islamic super yacht

I suspect that the yacht doesn't know and probably still accepted fuel even during Ramadan daylight.

That has nothing to do with religion in any way. That painting was sold for 450 million, making it nothing more than a ridiculous statement from Bin Salman to show the world how much money he has, and probably a compensation for his tiny penis.

This.

 

[Dotini]

I suspect that the yacht doesn't know and probably still accepted fuel even during Ramadan daylight.

Yes, But is the owner of yacht Islamic, know what Islam is, and believe even a word of it? Evidently maybe not. That's funny!

 

[TenEightyOne]

Yes, But is the owner of yacht Islamic, know what Islam is, and believe even a word of it? That's funny!

Wait - you're saying that Islam isn't practiced equally by all proponents? I don't see the humour, just a dose of actuality.

 

[Dotini]

Wait - you're saying that Islam isn't practiced equally by all proponents? I don't see the humour, just a dose of actuality.

Is irony a sort of humor?

 

[TenEightyOne]

Is irony a sort of humor?

Go on, where's the irony? Jesus is a prophet of the Qu'uran, so it can't be there... and Muslims are allowed to be rich, so it can't be there...

 

[Dotini]

Go on, where's the irony? Jesus is a prophet of the Qu'uran, so it can't be IS there

Irony may be defined: a state of affairs or an event that seems deliberately contrary to what one expects and is often amusing as a result

So when a supposed exponent of Islam defies Islamic protocol by displaying a figurative image of the penultimate prophet in his superyacht, that -to me - satisfies the definition of irony.

What do you make of the crystal ball?

 

[UKMikey]

Islamic protocol

Zzz... if he has TV on his yacht then maybe he isn't that heavily into aniconism except maybe for the big P Prophet. One of those princes actually tried to shut down the TV station when it opened and received a police bullet for his troubles. Wahhabism, man. Not sure how ironic this is though.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Irony may be defined: a state of affairs or an event that seems deliberately contrary to what one expects and is often amusing as a result

So when a supposed exponent of Islam defies Islamic protocol by displaying a figurative image of the penultimate prophet in his superyacht, that -to me - satisfies the definition of irony.

What do you make of the crystal ball?

The crystal ball is an easy one - it's the representation of the world, a common image in paintings of that era. You'll find them in all sorts of royal or holy figures. As for the aniconic expectations on the yacht owner... I don't see the problem. As @UKMikey points out there's probably a TV on that yacht too. Remember that the "muslim ban on Mohamadan imagery" is not absolute and is not something that can be attributed to all parts of muslim society.

 

[HenrySwanson]

Do you know how long it took me, using your own cited sources to debunk your position?

Less than five minutes.

Using a source that you said "went into further analysis" that your own sources did, I came across the following

So this is a continuation on from another thread where it's being claimed that I was cherry picking data and that the conclusions debunk the theory that Islam is linked to violence/peace according to GPI scores.

I'll tackle just those found in this post in the hope that it covers any other questions brought up about the source

View attachment 880550
All of these facts are true, yet it is also true that:

• While it is not the main reason, religion plays a role in a majority of conflicts (21).
  
• Islam is one of, and sometimes the only religion in all 21 of these conflicts

View attachment 880551

This explains that there are factors that have more of an effect on conflict/peace than religion.

It has to be stressed that:

• it's talking about all religion grouped together (think of it instead as religious belief) rather than all religions individually.

What you're making the mistake of doing when putting that conclusion together with this one:

View attachment 880552

and saying that they debunk Islam being linked to violence/peacefulness (or at the very least GPI) is believing that the statements cover each religion separately.

I've already tried to explain it with the biased coin so I'll use a contempary comparison to explain why that's wrong:

In the other thread (where this debate orginated) I posted this paper which concluded that:

There is no relationship between county-level racial bias in police shootings and crime rates (even race-specific crime rates)

Now if we applied what you are concluding in this thread to that paper, you could say "There is no relationship between county-level racial bias in police shootings and the murder rate". Such a statement may seem to make sense (after all, they said crime rate isn't related to county-level racial bias) but dig below the surface and it isn't actually accurate. We don't know if the murder rate was included in the measurement of the crime rate and even if it was we don't know what its specific relationship is to county-level racial bias - we only have an overall crime rate and can only make conclusions based on that.

Similarly we can probably be certain Islam was included when measuring religion against GPI but we can't take the conclusions drawn when measuring religion against GPI and apply that to Islam against GPI as we don't know the values of the latter.

 

[HenrySwanson]

'A naked brutality worthy of the Nazis'

* Now fixed