Israel and Palestine

[///M-Spec]

The issue of Israel and Palestine gets brought up frequently here, especially in conjunction with all the US/Iraq/War on Terrior rhetoric. I figured it was time for it to have its own thread.

How should this problem be settled?

I ask participants only two things: be informed of the history of the problem and be educated with both sides of the issue before you put in your two cents.

Here are some links you may find useful:

United Nations
http://www.un.org/Depts/dpa/qpal/

Global Policy Forum
http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/issues/isrlindx.htm

US Library of Congress
http://lcweb2.loc.gov/frd/cs/iltoc.html

The second thing: there is a lot of rhetoric out there on the 'net, since this is understandably a sensitive issue. I strongly recommend you excercise good judgement and do not incorporate verbage or external sites that expouse extremist views in either direction.


M

 

[87chevy]

Remove the restraints and let them fight it out. It's the only way.

 

[Pupik]

Turn Isreal into an amusement park with a big 100" wall around it, with one entrance having metal detectors and a strip-search. There will be Wailing Walls, Ass Rides, and The Place of the Skull. At 10pm every night, everyone is kicked out.

Sorry, I don't have a logical answer. But I can tell you what my family thinks, or I can tell you what I think. Both sides are rather extreme, coupled with the fact nobody told the people of Palestine that a new state was to be developed there. The only reason Isreal exists is because a fairy tale told them so. And followers of Islam are generally listening to someone who dreamt up a religion with more paradoxes than Christianity could ever hope to confuse its followers with.

In any case, what say we make UN handle the situation? They started the mess.

 

[Danoff]

All we have to do is get people to realize that God was invented by man - that we have no idea what happens when we die but that it's probably quite similar to what we remember happening before we were born... nothing.


Seriously though I don't know what we should do about it. My inclination is to say that the US shouldn't be invovled whatsoever.

 

[///M-Spec]

Turn Isreal into an amusement park with a big 100" wall around it, with one entrance having metal detectors and a strip-search. There will be Wailing Walls, Ass Rides, and The Place of the Skull. At 10pm every night, everyone is kicked out.

....

In any case, what say we make UN handle the situation? They started the mess.

A number of tasteless jokes jumped into my mind when you said that. Offensive, but strangely very funny in a Monty Python sort of way. Bad pupik.

And the UN had a plan to fix this problem in 1946... but no one listened.

Seriously though I don't know what we should do about it. My inclination is to say that the US shouldn't be invovled whatsoever.

That's my first reaction too, danoff. However, Israel is on the sweet end of the most generous aid package between two nations in history. 3 billion of your money and mine every year. 91 billion dollars since 1947. No joke. This doesn't even include all the tax deductable private money that flows to the country. Then there's the security council votes everytime the UN tries to get Israel to behave itself. I'd say we're involved.


M

 

[Carl.]

To quote ne of my idols, "there are several unknowns", on how things might turn in the near future. Arafat is about to be replaced, and given the current tensions, I fear that he'll be replaced by someone with a more radical approach. Sharon's plan for Gaza withdrawal looks to be a step in the right direction, if he can deal with the strong opposition from the right wingers. But this would still be a very small step, as Israel would almost remain in complete control over the region.

I think there is such animosity between the two camps that it will require some external help to ultimately calm things down. And the stance of the international community has to be fair to both side. Yes, terrorism something completely unacceptable, but we are not going to stop it the way things are going right now. 1600 Palestinian houses razed near the Egypt border in the last four years, in areas where the population density is the same as Manhattan, is also unacceptable. In this light, terrorism or not, I don't see how Israel would deserve our unconditional support.

We'll have to bring them again to negociations, to find an acceptable compromise, and I don't think any compromise would be viable without an external peacekeeping force until things settle down. The "acceptable compromise" won't be easy to find, of course, and Jerusalem is the hottest issue, the one that made Camp David a failure.

 

[ledhed]

Get them to stop blowing each other up first. failing that develope alternate energy sources and nuke the fools and start over..

 

[Mike Rotch]

There cant be a solution until the Palestinians learn to reason. They dont want just the West Bank or just the Gaza Strip. They want the entire "land of Israel" as their own.

Well that is the want of the fundamentalists, who were bourne out of the PLA (O?) and have since been uncontrolled by Yasser Arafat.

Also what interests me are these two typical situations:

1) *suicide bombers kills 10 Israeli civilians*
Arafat Spokesman: "We condone this act. The only solution is to restart the peace process"

2) *Israeli Army kills 4 militants in retaliatory missile attack, which also kills 2 civilians*
Arafat Spokesman: "This is murder. The EU and the rest of the world should sanction Israel!"

 

[Arwin]

There cant be a solution until the Palestinians learn to reason. They dont want just the West Bank or just the Gaza Strip. They want the entire "land of Israel" as their own.

That is false. The only dispute that couldn't be resolved last time was Jeruzalem.

Also what interests me are these two typical situations:

1) *suicide bombers kills 10 Israeli civilians*
Arafat Spokesman: "We condone this act. The only solution is to restart the peace process"

2) *Israeli Army kills 4 militants in retaliatory missile attack, which also kills 2 civilians*
Arafat Spokesman: "This is murder. The EU and the rest of the world should sanction Israel!"

Yeah well the so called Democracy of Israel does exactly the same thing.

 

[Mike Rotch]

The point I was making is that the PLA treat death via suicide bombing and death via attempts to eliminate fundamentalists differently. Attacks on fundamentalist elements are condoned as murder, attacks on Israeli civilians is an excuse to restart the peace process. Double standards?

 

[Arwin]

The point I was making is that the PLA treat death via suicide bombing and death via attempts to eliminate fundamentalists differently. Attacks on fundamentalist elements are condoned as murder, attacks on Israeli civilians is an excuse to restart the peace process. Double standards?

I get your point, but my answer remains the same. Don't let the fact that Israel has a big professional army instead of suicide bombers blur your vision.

 

[Mike Rotch]

So if I understand your point correctly, you are essentially equating the killing of Hamas figureheads with the killing of innocent Israeli civillians?

 

[Arwin]

So if I understand your point correctly, you are essentially equating the killing of Hamas figureheads with the killing of innocent Israeli civillians?

I understand that the difference between killing innocent Palestinian civilians in the process of hunting down Hamas figureheads and Palestinian bombers killing both military and civilians on purpose. But this difference is sometimes a little too subtle for me - especially if you look at who pays the larger price, never mind in terms of political and social injustice, but in simple terms of number of lives lost.

 

[Mike Rotch]

I understand that the difference between killing innocent Palestinian civilians in the process of hunting down Hamas figureheads and Palestinian bombers killing both military and civilians on purpose. But this difference is sometimes a little too subtle for me - especially if you look at who pays the larger price, never mind in terms of political and social injustice, but in simple terms of number of lives lost.

The difference may be subtle, but a difference it is. The killing of Hamas figureheads is done in order to attempt to stop suicide bombings. Suicide bombers are blowing up innocent people to achieve what? To try scare Israeli's into the sea?

Suicide bombings achieve nothing, other then provoke attacks on Hamas figureheads. Thus any attempts to snuff out suicide bombings (but way of attacking the underlying structure of people) is justified in my book.

 

[TheCracker]

if Israel stopped stealing more and more of the Palestinions megre land divisions for its own settlers - and perhaps gave back some of the land they have been 'claiming' more and more since the 50's, then maybe the Palestinions wouldn't feel as hard-done-by or feel as much like prisoners in their own land as they do now. The whole Israel/Palestine situation is a complex and sensitive issue that will be hard to solve (if at all) I certainly believe that America should stop aiding the Israelis, if for no other reason other than spending all that money on those a little closer to home instead.

 

[Arwin]

The difference may be subtle, but a difference it is. The killing of Hamas figureheads is done in order to attempt to stop suicide bombings. Suicide bombers are blowing up innocent people to achieve what? To try scare Israeli's into the sea?

Suicide bombings achieve nothing, other then provoke attacks on Hamas figureheads. Thus any attempts to snuff out suicide bombings (but way of attacking the underlying structure of people) is justified in my book.

So you mean that killing innocent Israelis is bad because it doesn't help anyway, but killing innocent Palestines is good because killing Hamas figureheads does help?

For the record, most of the time the PLO (yes, even by the words of Arafat) condemns attacks on innocent civilians, even if they are Israelis. Like today. On the other hand, the Israeli government rarely aplogises for killing innocent Palestinians, even though that happens a lot more.

 

[87chevy]

So you mean that killing innocent Israelis is bad because it doesn't help anyway, but killing innocent Palestines is good because killing Hamas figureheads does help?

For the record, most of the time the PLO (yes, even by the words of Arafat) condemns attacks on innocent civilians, even if they are Israelis.

condemns??? what does that do? I condemn you! ha take that!

give me a break, Arafat's a terrorist.

 

[ledhed]

Isreal was founded by terrorist and the head of thier terror organisation was elected prime minister..Rabin if I recall right. The Zionist used terrorism to attack the British mandate government along with the Arabs..That glass houses stuff comes to mind. the zionist terror meathods are still being taught and learned around the world. How soon we disremember our history.

 

[rjensen11]

Said it before, I'll say it again:

The U.S. should recognize Palestine as its own sovergn nation, including the Gaza Strip and the West Bank. The US should also stop backing Israel financially and militarily, except in cases like Iraq during '91.

But you also can't forget about the India/Pakistan conflict. There're going to be bombs dropping within the next 4 years if Bush has his way.

 

[///M-Spec]

bump.


M

 

[vat_man]

Said it before, I'll say it again:

The U.S. should recognize Palestine as its own sovergn nation, including the Gaza Strip and the West Bank. The US should also stop backing Israel financially and militarily, except in cases like Iraq during '91.

But you also can't forget about the India/Pakistan conflict. There're going to be bombs dropping within the next 4 years if Bush has his way.

The US isn't neutral in this case, as has been demonstrated time and time again. The Jewish lobby's influence on US foreign affairs is simply too strong - disagree? Let's talk about Henry Kissinger...

That said, there seems to be some drive to see Palestine declared as a sovereign nation now (hey, I'm as surprised as you!) and that's probably going to be the only resolution to the situation.

You're dealing with a people that have really been displaced since 1948 and have pretty much been the local football since then, a situation only exacerbated by the Six Day War since 1967. One can only imagine the levels of desperation caused by this, something doubtless leading to the suicide bombings we've seen in recent years - these people literally have nothing to lose. I doubt any of us in western countries can truly appreciate the levels of despair here.

That said, Israel has pretty well had to fight for its very survival since its inception in 1948, and the wars in the years afterward have only gone to confirm that - it's scary to think that we're dealing with prejudices that go back over 2000 years. For those of us from young nations of less than 250 years, it's fairly daunting.

I doubt we'll see peaceful resolution in our lifetimes, even if there is a Palestine state before 2008.

Man, it all looked so good in 2000...

 

[wheellift]

Long live Israel...

 

[///M-Spec]

This is quite promising.

http://edition.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/02/08/mideast/index.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4245353.stm


M

 

[Solid Fro]

Yeah, that's all good, but the real problem is Hamas.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm...08/wl_mideast_afp/mideastsummitceasefirehamas

The instant another civilian bus is blown up by a radical Islamic terrorist group like Hamas, this "truce" will be up in smoke.

 

[///M-Spec]

This week Israeli settlers are being removed screaming and kicking from their homes in Gaza. However, Sharon has vowed to continue settlement activities in the West Bank.

Hamas and other groups consider this a victory for their armed resistance movement.

Does this help or worsen the situation?


M

 

[Danoff]

This week Israeli settlers are being removed screaming and kicking from their homes in Gaza. However, Sharon has vowed to continue settlement activities in the West Bank.

Hamas and other groups consider this a victory for their armed resistance movement.

Does this help or worsen the situation?


M

Worsen.

The terrorists will be encouraged by Israel's sign of weakness/good faith.

 

[Zardoz]

This week Israeli settlers are being removed screaming and kicking from their homes in Gaza. However, Sharon has vowed to continue settlement activities in the West Bank.

Hamas and other groups consider this a victory for their armed resistance movement.

Does this help or worsen the situation?


M

It can only help (even though it was done only because Israel can no longer afford to deploy the 30,000 troops required to protect the 9,000 Gaza settlers), but it's just a bare beginning. Israelis settling in Gaza and the West Bank was a catastrophic mistake in the first place, and now there are something like 350,000 in the West Bank. Nothing can ever get them out of there, so the conflict will continue forever. The existence of the settlements precludes any possibility of peace, for all time.

The situation will continue to destabilize the Middle East in particular and the entire world in general for the foreseeable future.

 

[Omnis]

What's up with Jews and them not ever finding a home? They didn't belong in Palestine, and now where are they to go?

 

[Danoff]

It can only help (even though it was done only because Israel can no longer afford to deploy the 30,000 troops required to protect the 9,000 Gaza settlers), but it's just a bare beginning.

I don't see how "it can only help". I see lots of ways it could hurt.

 

[a6m5]

The terrorists will be encouraged by Israel's sign of weakness/good faith.

I'm hoping for the opposite, but I think danoff is right on the money here. Until this, I didn't want to take any sides, because I can see this conflict from the both sides' point of view. But if the Palestinian side doesn't take this move by Israel as the chance for peace, I will be leaning towards Pro-Israel. What a mess!