Israel - Palestine discussion thread

[Imari]

No. Without intention of killing this specific people? Yes

The specific people you're talking about are "people who live in Gaza". I call ********. Israel thinks that the entirety of Gaza are front-line Hamas members.

I don't see why they don't.

Have you been paying attention at all? Learn some history, then maybe you'll have something of value to contribute.

Right on schedule.

Israeli general says strike on World Central Kitchen team was a "mistake that followed a misidentification"

An Israeli airstrike has killed at least seven aid workers from a team delivering food to civilians in Gaza, according to nonprofit World Central Kitchen and authorities in the enclave.

www.cnn.com

This is the other problem. Israel can keep making "mistakes" until they've "mistakenly" killed everyone in Gaza. If they're smart about not keeping records, it's going to be very hard to pin anything on them afterwards.

Hell, if 10% of the Israeli military are the sort of people that have been trained through propaganda to kill Palestinians on sight, all they have to do is look the other way for a bit and not try too hard to pursue any investigations and job done. Afterwards I'm sure they'll be very sorry and they didn't know this stuff was going on. But oh well, the territory is unoccupied now so someone might as well get some use out of it.

Hanlon's Razor is a thing, but there's a point where serious professionals would have to be so incompetent at their jobs that it's unbelievable that it's not malice. The people who are commanding the Israeli military are not stupid. It is impossible that they do not know exactly what's going on, and their responses to repeated "mistakes" are not those of people who are upset about the results that they are getting.

 

[inCloud]

Because it's about control, and the point of fact is that they don't allow them to do so and haven't for decades.

Proofs?

Calls from Israel

Its understandable reaction of individuals after horrible acts of terror. On state level Israel is one of the most tolerant states in the world. Even at the state of war.

people who live in Gaza

Its not specific group. Genocide is specific term , you can't say it about everything horrible in the world.

 

[Scaff]

The specific people you're talking about are "people who live in Gaza". I call ********. Israel thinks that the entirety of Gaza are front-line Hamas members.

Have you been paying attention at all? Learn some history, then maybe you'll have something of value to contribute.

This is the other problem. Israel can keep making "mistakes" until they've "mistakenly" killed everyone in Gaza. If they're smart about not keeping records, it's going to be very hard to pin anything on them afterwards.

Hell, if 10% of the Israeli military are the sort of people that have been trained through propaganda to kill Palestinians on sight, all they have to do is look the other way for a bit and not try too hard to pursue any investigations and job done. Afterwards I'm sure they'll be very sorry and they didn't know this stuff was going on. But oh well, the territory is unoccupied now so someone might as well get some use out of it.

Hanlon's Razor is a thing, but there's a point where serious professionals would have to be so incompetent at their jobs that it's unbelievable that it's not malice. The people who are commanding the Israeli military are not stupid. It is impossible that they do not know exactly what's going on, and their responses to repeated "mistakes" are not those of people who are upset about the results that they are getting.

Add in the fact that friendly fire rates for the IDF are at 20%, which is staggeringly high. The claimed number of Hamas fighters killed (by the IDFs own statements) is circa 10k to 12k (against a total of 30k+), giving a collateral casualty rate of 66%, which is mind-blowingly high. Compounded by the fact that circa 50% of all munitions dropped by the IDF have been unguided.

All of which strongly suggests that the IDF is pretty much shooting at anything that moves.

Israel Gaza: Checking Israel's claim to have killed 10,000 Hamas fighters

BBC Verify examines the evidence on combatant deaths, as concern grows about the scale of civilian killing.

www.bbc.co.uk

https://edition.cnn.com/2023/12/13/politics/intelligence-assessment-dumb-bombs-israel-gaza/index.html

Proofs?

Of what? That Israel carried out collective punishment? You've been given it and chosen to ignore it.

Its understandable reaction of individuals after horrible acts of terror. On state level Israel is one of the most tolerant states in the world. Even at the state of war.

No, it's not, and the argument that Israel is tolerant or moral (in war or not) regarding Palestinians is not supported by a shred of evidence. Israel's actions towards Palestinians, have for decades, met the definition of apartheid.

Its not specific group. Genocide is specific term , you can't say it about everything horrible in the world.

The UN disagrees. https://www.thenationalnews.com/men...03/26/genocide-convention-report-israel-gaza/

 

[inCloud]

All of which strongly suggests that the IDF is pretty much shooting at anything that moves.

HAMAS using guerrilla tactics in city, how you expect IDF would counter that?

Of what

Try to read text in quote

is not supported by a shred of evidence

I well aware of how indoctrination of tolerance in Israeli schools works, you just not right.

I don't question morality in this case, its too subjective and complicated.

The UN disagrees.

Its opinion of UN members, not statement of UN.

 

[Scaff]

HAMAS using guerrilla tactics in city, how you expect IDF would counter that?

By not shooting everything that moves, or using unguided munitions, resulting in absurdly high friendly fire and collateral death rates.

Try to read text in quote

I have, nothing you've said or posted disputes the use of collective punishment being clear and openly admitted by Israel.

I well aware of how indoctrination of tolerance in Israeli schools works, you just not right.

Yet you provide no evidence, could you illustrate this famous tolerance by citing the lyrics of the most streamed song in Israel in recent times?

I'm sure it's call for tolerance will support your claim, along with all those tolerant calls from the IDF and Israeli government you handwaved at.

I don't question morality in this case, its too subjective and complicated.

How convenient.

Look it's really not difficult, the actions of Hamas, the IDF and Israeli government in the current conflict have not been either moral or within international laws.

I did it, why not give it a go.

Its opinion of UN members, not statement of UN.

They are not alone.

 

[inCloud]

By not shooting everything that moves, or using unguided munitions, resulting in absurdly high friendly fire and collateral death rates.

Problem is, we can't say is it possible or not. Most likely not. I would be glad if there would be magic button that immobilize all bad guys without consequences, but there isn't one.

I have

You obviously not

could you illustrate this famous tolerance by citing the lyrics of the most streamed song in Israel in recent times

How its related to state policy of tolerance?

you handwaved

I didn't handewaved anything.

I did it, why not give it a go.

Because, I am in complicated situation myself and well aware that's not everything is white and black.

 

[Scaff]

Problem is, we can't say is it possible or not. Most likely not. I would be glad if there would be magic button that immobilize all bad guys without consequences, but there isn't one.

A middle ground most certainly exists, so yes we can say that. The use of 50% unguided munitions in one of the most densely populated areas on the planet is a choice, the shooting of civilians (many women and children) by snipers while they are in communicated travel zones and waving white flags is a choice. The repeated targeting of journalists and aid workers is a choice. All of these are both factual and occurring at unprecedented levels.

No-one is saying that these can be reduced to zero, so drop that strawman, but the evidence that the IDF is doing nothing at all to minimise them is rather stark.

You obviously not

If Israel controls all borders, all imports/exports, and all transit in and out of Gaza (and it does, that is not a disputable fact) then please explain how Gazans would obtain water and power from any other source.

How its related to state policy of tolerance?

In that, it's tolerated and echoed by those in power.

Let's take a little look at some of the lyrics, and while you read them keep in mind that a state broadcaster shared the video for this...

“In another year there will be nothing there/And we will return safely to our homes/Within a year we will annihilate everyone/And then we will return to plough our fields.”

...what was that you said about tolerance (awaits next handwave)?

I didn't handewaved anything.

You most certainly did, excusing calls for genocide as 'well anyone would do that in the same circumstances' is nonsense. The IRA and ISIS have both carried out substantial terror attacks in the UK, I've never felt the need to call for genocide on the Irish or Muslims. It's not a normal reaction and to excuse it as such is to handwave it away.

Because, I am in complicated situation myself and well aware that's not everything is white and black.

Yet you said "On state level Israel is one of the most tolerant states in the world. Even at the state of war.", which is a rather black-and-white statement, you've also excused calls from the IDF and the Israeli government for both genocide and collective punishments. You're fine with black and white.

 

[UKMikey]

It's gonna be tough to stan for IDF after today although I'm sure their online fan club will give this their best shot.

I will have to admit I really didn't expect the stanning to be coming from inside the thread.

 

[Joey D]

I wasn't aware one of the WCK workers killed was an American.

World Central Kitchen | Honoring WCK team members killed in Gaza

“These are the heroes of World Central Kitchen."

wck.org

 

[Scaff]

I wasn't aware one of the WCK workers killed was an American.

World Central Kitchen | Honoring WCK team members killed in Gaza

“These are the heroes of World Central Kitchen."

wck.org

American-Canadian I believe, and what is disturbing about the incident is that it appears to not have been the result of a single strike, as the three destroyed vehicles are 2.5km/1.5m apart in total, which would suggest three separate strikes.

Gaza aid convoy strike: What we know

BBC Verify on what we know about the attack on an aid vehicle convoy in Gaza.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Imari]

Problem is, we can't say is it possible or not. Most likely not.

It's possible to try harder than the IDF have. Their zero ****s given attitude towards eradicating Hamas has had exactly the results any normal person would expect. It's not like they went in there with a solid plan for avoiding civilian casualties and then were surprised by the conditions on the ground. They went in all guns blazing and it turned out exactly as expected.

There are any number of other possible strategies that could have been used, and Israel selected one that was very fast, very brutal, and very destructive. If any part of their goals were to avoid civilian deaths then it was and is a bad strategy. Whether anything else would have worked better is irrelevant, given that what they chose had obvious flaws even before they started and they're refusing to try anything else in the face of significant reasons to maybe moderate their attack just a little bit.

Urban warfare is difficult, but that's not a reason to say "**** it, it won't be urban warfare if there's no buildings left". This is one of the best equipped and trained militaries in the world against a bunch of dudes who are having to smuggle weapons into the country and is bragging about their ability to build weapons in sheds. The IDF has such a colossal advantage in almost every measurable way that if they can't use that to get a better ratio than two civilian deaths to every Hamas fighter killed then they have no business being in a war zone in the first place.

 

[Joey D]

American-Canadian I believe, and what is disturbing about the incident is that it appears to not have been the result of a single strike, as the three destroyed vehicles are 2.5km/1.5m apart in total, which would suggest three separate strikes.

Gaza aid convoy strike: What we know

BBC Verify on what we know about the attack on an aid vehicle convoy in Gaza.

www.bbc.co.uk

Yup, dual-citizen, which is enough for me to say the US should immediately cut support with Israel over it. However, I know that's going to be tricky, especially in an election year since so many people in the US have been ingrained to support Israel unconditionally. If Biden severs ties with Israel over this, then he's going to get absolutely lambasted by Republicans for turning his back on allies. If he does nothing, he's going to get absolutely lambasted by Republicans for allowing an American to be killed and doing nothing about it. At the very least, we should probably quit sending and selling munitions to Israel.

There are any number of other possible strategies that could have been used, and Israel selected one that was very fast, very brutal, and very destructive. If any part of their goals were to avoid civilian deaths then it was and is a bad strategy. Whether anything else would have worked better is irrelevant, given that what they chose had obvious flaws even before they started and they're refusing to try anything else in the face of significant reasons to maybe moderate their attack just a little bit.

Israel has some of the most elite special forces in the world with Sayeret Matkal and Shayetet 13. They also have a highly trained undercover anti-terrorism operatives that operates in enemy terrority called the Mista'arvim. Even their intelligence agency, the Mossad, has an high specialized assassins called the Kidon. These are just the ones we know about too, and they, undoubtedly, have ones we have no clue about.

It's clear they have options, but choose the method that causes the most destruction possible.

 

[HenrySwanson]

Do we have any hard proofs of that? I don't say IDF not using indirect fire, but collective punishment is serious claim.

Read about the case of Iman Darweesh Al Hams and see the levels the IDF can stoop to.

 

[inCloud]

If Israel controls all borders, all imports/exports, and all transit in and out of Gaza (and it does, that is not a disputable fact) then please explain how Gazans would obtain water and power from any other source.

In other words, you don't have proofs that Gazans tried to get power and water via alternative ways.

In that, it's tolerated and echoed by those in power.

Yeah, song proves that all jews hate Palestinians. Case solved.

The IRA and ISIS have both carried out substantial terror attacks in the UK, I've never felt the need to call for genocide on the Irish or Muslims.

Good for you. And no one did? How about those who lost their kids in attacks?

which is a rather black-and-white statement,

Animal rights laws in Nazi Germany were best in whole world. It doesn't make it anywhere good.

The IDF has such a colossal advantage in almost every measurable way that if they can't use that to get a better ratio than two civilian deaths to every Hamas fighter killed then they have no business being in a war zone in the first place.

Do you have any examples when high-tech army won against guerrillas without obliterating everything?

 

[Scaff]

In other words, you don't have proofs that Gazans tried to get power and water via alternative ways.

I've never claimed they did, so I've no idea what you're talking about. What has been shown and is public record is that Israel controls all aspects of power and water in Gaza and in cutting it off engaged in an act of collective punishment.

Yeah, song proves that all jews hate Palestinians. Case solved.

You asked for an example of the state supporting calls for genocide, I've provided numerous examples, and you've excused every one of them (and it wasn't just one song).

Good for you. And no one did? How about those who lost their kids in attacks?

Some of the main people involved in the peace process lost family members, including children. However it's now quite clear, you're OK with calls for genocide. Oh, and a minority of people did, but it's not going to support your argument, as they were almost exclusively far-right nationalists, and we never made a song calling for genocide the top tune on streaming services and the BBC didn't echo those calls for genocide, nor did the governments of the day.

Animal rights laws in Nazi Germany were best in whole world. It doesn't make it anywhere good.

Whatoboutism isn't an argument, but if that's your best defence then I guess you have none.

Do you have any examples when high-tech army won against guerrillas without obliterating everything?

Once again a strawman argument, the number of logical fallacies you are employing along with your apparent comfort with calls for genocide are not a good look and are most certainly not a compelling argument.

 

[inCloud]

I've never claimed they did

And what is that?

Because it's about control, and the point of fact is that they don't allow them to do so and haven't for decades.

Israel controls all aspects of power and water in Gaza and in cutting it off engaged in an act of collective punishment

Israel could do whatever it wants with its resources, if you ask me. I already stated that Gaza wasn't occupied by Israel since 2005, so that's not an argument for me.

You asked for an example of the state supporting calls for genocide

And you provide 0. Because there isn't anything. Popular song isn't proofs, its nonsense.

you're OK with calls for genocide

How about you stop putting word in my mouth?

Whatoboutism

Wat?

number of logical fallacies

LoL

 

[Joey D]

And you provide 0. Because there isn't anything. Popular song isn't proofs, its nonsense.

The International Court of Justice believes that genocide is possible and South Africa is making the claim (they know a thing or two about genocide):

https://www.npr.org/2024/01/26/1227078791/icj-israel-genocide-gaza-palestinians-south-africa

South Africa tells top UN court Israel is committing genocide in Gaza as landmark case begins

South African lawyers said during the opening arguments that the latest Gaza war is part of a decadeslong oppression of the Palestinians by Israel.

apnews.com

As does the UN's Special Rapporteur on human rights in the Occupied Territories:

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/un-expert-says-israel-has-committed-genocide-gaza-calls-arms-embargo-2024-03-26/

The Center for Constituional Rights (a non-profit legal organization) has a 44 page briefing outlining all the ways it sees Israel is committing genocide:

Israel’s Unfolding Crime of Genocide of the Palestinian People & U.S. Failure to Prevent and Complicity in Genocide

As President Biden visited Israel, and the Palestinian death toll in Gaza passed 3,300, the U.S.-based Center for Constitutional Rights released a legal and factual analysis of Israel’s unfolding geno

ccrjustice.org

The Jewish Voice for Peace, another non-profit group, has outlined why Israel is committing genocide with dates and sources:

Why Israel’s war on Gaza is textbook genocide. - JVP

Israel is committing genocide — and Israel’s prosecution under international law matters for our movement.

www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org

There are plenty of examples from Israeli leaders too. Here's a translated Xweet from the Israeli Minister of National Security:


Here's a Xweet from Deputy Speaker of the Knesset Nissim Vaturi that translates to "Now putting all the differences aside, I have a lot to say but there will be enough time for self-criticism and soul-searching about everything that preceded the disaster this morning. Now we all have one common goal - erasing the Gaza Strip from the face of the earth. Those who are unable will be replaced.Sending condolences to the families and recovery to the injured. Strengthening the soldiers of the IDF and the security forces, the entire nation of Israel is behind you!


Just because you can't be bothered to move on from being a Zionist, and let's be honest, you're being a Zionist, doesn't mean that Israel isn't doing some terrible things to the Palestinian people. Are you from Israel or are you Jewish? Because the amount of ignoring facts that is going on from you is reminiscent of a large percentage of the Jewish people I know.

 

[Scaff]

And what is that?

That Gazans attempted to obtain power and water from any other source because it's common knowledge that it would be impossible for them to do so. If you disagree explain how they would go about doing so.

Israel could do whatever it wants with its resources, if you ask me.

Unless it's turned a location directly under it's control into an effective prison and controls the only route for water and power, if it then refuses to do so that's collective punishment.

I already stated that Gaza wasn't occupied by Israel since 2005, so that's not an argument for me.

It's also a moot point, as has been explained to you repeatedly, Israel controls every aspect of import and export for Gaza, along with all maritime and air passage and all transit.

And you provide 0. Because there isn't anything. Popular song isn't proofs, its nonsense.

I've quoted members of the IDF using genocidal speech, I've presented evidence of the Israeli government using genocidal speech, I've presented evidence of how popular genocidal speech is culturally, and I've posted proof of a state broadcaster sharing it. I've provided a great deal of evidence (and this is just for speech), but you've chosen to ignore or excuse it, which makes your position that of one who either doesn't care or one who supports it.

How about you stop putting word in my mouth?

You've failed to condemn repeated and clear evidence of such, and as a neutral position only supports the perpetrator in these situations, as such I stand by the point. An easy way to resolve your neutral position exists, simply confirm one way or the other.

Wat?

You used a 'whataboutism', it's a logical fallacy where one attempts to rebut an argument by bringing up an irrelevant comparison.

LoL

No, logical fallacies, you've resorted to then repeatedly due to your inability to form a cohesive argument.

 

[Scaff]

More moral behaviour,

"Israeli doctor says detained Palestinians are undergoing ‘routine’ amputations for handcuff injuries"

https://edition.cnn.com/2024/04/06/middleeast/doctor-israel-hospital-conditions-intl/index.html

I honestly don't think things got this bad even at the worst points of the war on terror.

 

[UKMikey]

 

[Touring Mars]

Middle East crisis live: Israel threatens to strike Iran directly – as it happened

Israel’s foreign minister says Israel will attack Iran directly if Tehran launches an attack from its territory

www.theguardian.com

Needless to say, but a direct Israeli military attack on Iran itself or vice versa would very likely result in a full scale war - as opposed to merely the proxy war that is already under way in Gaza.

 

[Liquid]

The assured in Mutually Assured Destruction wasn't supposed to be a suggestion or instruction.

 

[Imari]

Middle East crisis live: Israel threatens to strike Iran directly – as it happened

Israel’s foreign minister says Israel will attack Iran directly if Tehran launches an attack from its territory

www.theguardian.com

Needless to say, but a direct Israeli military attack on Iran itself or vice versa would very likely result in a full scale war - as opposed to merely the proxy war that is already under way in Gaza.

Huh. I really thought the Ukraine/Russia thing was going to be the start of WW3, but that whole conflict has been comparatively restrained and conventional. I wouldn't have picked Israel for starting another world war given that they're the one group of people who should absolutely know the horrible consequences of that sort of thing, but here we are I guess.

Now seems like it would be a good time for the World Police to make an entrance and tell Israel to pull it's ****ing head in. Israel at the moment seems to be going around trying it's hardest to get into fights with whoever it can. Sit them on the naughty step for a bit and tell them if they can't play nice with the other kids then they can go to their room.

 

[inCloud]

would very likely result in a full scale war

They need to cross , at least, two independent states to confront each other with ground forces. Worst case scenario, Hesbollah would start ground operation.

Israel playing honey badger thing, same way it did in past. At least, it didn't paint redlines that anyone could cross without consequences.

 

[Blood Eagle]

Some sources out there saying Iranian airspace over Tehran is now closed for "military drills". Considering Iran's poor track record with civilian airliners during military operations, seems like it might be about to start.

Iran suspends air traffic over Tehran from midnight local time 'due to military drills' - Mehr news

Iran has suspended all air traffic over the capital Tehran from midnight local time due to "military drills,"

www.jpost.com

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

Israel better not drag us into a war they ignited.

Well its after 12A local time and flight traffic in and out of Tehran still looks pretty normal.

 

[Imari]

Israel better not drag us into a war they ignited.

Well its after 12A local time and flight traffic in and out of Tehran still looks pretty normal.

It's not inconceivable that Israel gets into an actual war with an actual opponent that has an actual military in the next 6 to 12 months.

I hope the US doesn't get dragged in too, but I'm pretty sure they would. I suspect that the European allies would be hesitant to get involved - they've got enough to deal with and they've mostly been far less in Israel's pocket to begin with. It does concern me that Australia would probably see it as another opportunity to get on side with the US and help out.

 

[HenrySwanson]

 

[Liquid]

I hope the US doesn't get dragged in too, but I'm pretty sure they would.

 

[Imari]

That's probably a good move in that it makes clear to Iran that any sort of attack is not going to go well for them.

It may be a bad move if Israel takes this as yet further evidence that they can do whatever the **** they want and that Sugar Daddy America will make sure that they face no consequences. They're like the world's most unhinged nepo baby. But with nuclear weapons.

I bet the American strategic guys are working overtime at the moment. They'll be having to try and plan out responses for all the expected scenarios, and there's just so much that could go horribly wrong really quickly. I mean, horribly wronger than it already is.