Italy wat r u doin?

[Danoff]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2012/oct/22/scientists-convicted-manslaughter-earthquake

Italy, stahp!

In all seriousness, this not only sets a horrific precedent in Italian law, but it undermines a very important scientific endeavor which may one day prevent tens of thousands from being killed in incidences like the tsunami off the coast of japan.

This reckless behavior not only puts these innocent scientists in danger of losing their freedoms, but also may cost an unknown number of lives by delaying important technological breakthroughs in earthquake sensing. Italy should be condemned internationally for allowing this, and if this is consistent with their laws, they need to change their laws as fast as possible and pardon these scientists.

 

[CodeRedR51]

Where's that facepalm smiley at?

This from the comment section says it all:

Does this mean I can now sue my weatherman for predicting sunshine when in fact it rained?

 

[Liquid]

I wouldn't mind being resuscitated by you

That is all.

 

[homeforsummer]

How long before we can sue earthquakes themselves for causing deaths?...

 

[Scaff]

I still can't get my head around the Italian legal system actually being this stupid.

 

[Rossell2]

 

[Beeblebrox237]

Have any of the judges actually tried to predict an earthquake? It isn't easy!

 

[I Am Yellow]

That's incredibly stupid. It's like the guy who sued God.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Shocking ... might as well charge every people who failed to keep / prevent accidents from happening.

 

[terminator363]

This is quite ridiculous, just because they predicted incorrectly doesn't mean you have to throw them in prison.

 

[sumbrownkid]

Can't the scientists appeal the court's decision to the EU?

 

[DK]

That's incredibly stupid. It's like the guy who sued God.

I wonder, who would pay out if he won? The Vatican? The Anglican Church? The various Baptist Churches? Or would it be Muslims or Jews?

 

[Scaff]

This is quite ridiculous, just because they predicted incorrectly doesn't mean you have to throw them in prison.

From what I understand the material they produced was sound and its more a question of how that material has been interpreted by others. As such I don't for the life of me see how they can be held accountable.

They have basically been convicted because they said that small tremors in the days prior to the main quake meant that it "was "unlikely" that the shaking foreshadowed a larger quake. "

Small quakes are common in Italy (I have felt a few when travelling and working in the country) and a 1998 study indicated that only 2% of small tremor clusters resulted in a major quake.

Source: http://www.livescience.com/24173-laquila-earthquake-manslaughter-verdict-condemned.html

As such the Italian legal case smacks more of the middle ages than of solid judicial process.

 

[Ibonibo]

While this is incredibly stupid,
in Italy a sentence only applies after the revision.
And this isn't even Italy's highest court, it's a regional court.
The judge is probably biased personally by the incident (maybe lost someone), thus the stupid sentence,
thus this will never go through.

Wrong sentences, and stupid judges are everywhere. Don't throw stones at Italy as a whole now, because we all know of stupid cases,...

 

[Scaff]

Don't throw stones at Italy as a whole now, because we all know of stupid cases,...

I'm not throwing stones at Italy as a whole, only at the Italian legal system, as yes we do all know of stupid cases, but this is a stupid verdict and sentence (2 years more than the prosecution were asking for).

The US gets a lot of flak for litigation cases (most of which are either misunderstood such as the McDonald's coffee one or get dismissed early on), but this is quite another step above that.

 

[Blitz24]

I'm not throwing stones at Italy as a whole, only at the Italian legal system, as yes we do all know of stupid cases, but this is a stupid verdict and sentence (2 years more than the prosecution were asking for).

The US gets a lot of flak for litigation cases (most of which are either misunderstood such as the McDonald's coffee one or get dismissed early on), but this is quite another step above that.

100% true.

There is a big difference between suing someone for being stupid (although, the injury MAY have some merit because apparently in this society you need explicit directions and warnings in order to use your brain), but this is a situation where the scientists gave the wrong warning because they were using studies that turned out to be wrong. I hope this doesn't become a precedent and now people will sue for Katrina and no warning from the meteorologists (like, I don't know, EVACUATING?!).

 

[Ibonibo]

I'm not throwing stones at Italy as a whole, only at the Italian legal system, as yes we do all know of stupid cases, but this is a stupid verdict and sentence (2 years more than the prosecution were asking for).

The US gets a lot of flak for litigation cases (most of which are either misunderstood such as the McDonald's coffee one or get dismissed early on), but this is quite another step above that.

The case you showed is not one of the really stupid cases, but there are many others, but that gets off topic as stupid sentences happen in all countries...

On the this subject, there was a scientist who warned about a quake a few days or weeks before. He got sued for panic making. (though he had no conclusive proof that it happened, it were radon readings, it was coincidence that it really happened (according to a german scientist))

Then the city allegedly "bought" those experts now in question to calm down again the city and people.
It doesn't seem we get all the info.
But the attorney as it seems has prove of this, thus the scientist could have deliberately endangered the people by down playing it, falsify or not publishing scientific readings,....

And it is well known that Italy in certain region is very lazy in preventing this, by building quake safe buildings, they just blend this out. As does most of humanity when they choose to live in quite dangerous settlements (geological speaking)

 

[Blitz24]

The case you showed is not one of the really stupid cases, but there are many others, but that gets off topic as stupid sentences happen in all countries...

On the this subject, there was a scientist who warned about a quake a few days or weeks before. He got sued for panic making. (though he had no conclusive proof that it happened, it were radon readings, it was coincidence that it really happened (according to a german scientist))

Then the city allegedly "bought" those experts now in question to calm down again the city and people.
It doesn't seem we get all the info.
But the attorney as it seems has prove of this, thus the scientist could have deliberately endangered the people by down playing it, falsify or not publishing scientific readings,....

And it is well known that Italy in certain region is very lazy in preventing this, by building quake safe buildings, they just blend this out. As does most of humanity when they choose to live in quite dangerous settlements (geological speaking)

Actually, the case was pretty stupid (if your definition of stupid is not thinking and dropping/spilling hot coffee on yourself is pretty stupid but then to be able to sue someone for your own stupidity is even more idiotic), it was just a matter of non-life threatening circumstances.

The earthquake is different. 100% different because it shows that people now need to know the future all the time and that simply isn't possible. And what were they supposed to do? Was the first person who was sued for making a "panic" exonerated? If he wasn't then I would honestly advise any future scientist to not only avoid this region of Italy, but never speak to these people who will sue you if you are right or wrong.

 

[Ibonibo]

Well Americans need a disclaimer everywhere, that's known. My mom has a Chrysler. It has a disclaimer about the airbags!... Hillarious stuff... More stupid than the coffee, is the guy who sued McDo. for beeing fat. That's really stupid.

Italian scientist stopped making public about the dangers of the Vezuv because of crap like this. Still new buildings are beeing built on the hang of the Vezuv,,...

But yes, this is really stupid. But like I said, the judge was probably not impartial in this. This sentence will never make it through in the second passage. And finally we still don't know enough, if the scientist really were paid to play it down, it is sentence worthy, not 6 years, but still a sentence must be spoken if that claim holds up.

 

[Scaff]

But the attorney as it seems has prove of this, thus the scientist could have deliberately endangered the people by down playing it, falsify or not publishing scientific readings,....

Except they didn't downplay anything.

A 2% change of minor tremors turning into a major quake is the average in Italy, that's exactly what this was, as such describing it as they did was accurate and not downplaying it at all.

98% of the time nothing else happens after minor tremors, 2% of the time something does.

How exactly would you describe a 2% risk?
Would you evacuate an entire town every time?

Actually, the case was pretty stupid (if your definition of stupid is not thinking and dropping/spilling hot coffee on yourself is pretty stupid but then to be able to sue someone for your own stupidity is even more idiotic), it was just a matter of non-life threatening circumstances.

You may want to actually read into that case as it took into account that the customer was partially liable (hence the reason why the award was reduced), but also that McD knew full well that the coffee was a risk (over 700 documented cases of burns they had records off) and did nothing about it at all.

That legal campaigners against trivial cases don't cite it as one should be a fair indicator of that (that and it would need a separate thread)

 

[Ibonibo]

Except they didn't downplay anything.

A 2% change of minor tremors turning into a major quake is the average in Italy, that's exactly what this was, as such describing it as they did was accurate and not downplaying it at all.

98% of the time nothing else happens after minor tremors, 2% of the time something does.

How exactly would you describe a 2% risk?
Would you evacuate an entire town every time?
.

We don't know the exact readings thus we both can't make the claim of having downplayed or not. I'm just citing you what was spoken this morning in the Italian news. And an attorney would be really stupid to say he has lots of documents proving this, when he wouldn't, but it's still a possibility.

We know that an evacuation cost a lot, this region doesn't have the money, so they maybe read the data too largely having this in mind,... We don't know.

fact is legistative steps should have been taken long ago to built building or fortify them to make them at least a minimum quake safe. This is the biggest problem and partely due to the mentality (citing the regional counsil, not me, though it wouldn't be racist, i'm half italian)

Also this seems a bit as a diversion to the fact that nothing has been rebuilt, lots of people still can't go into their houses,... So the state, town, needs a cow to sacrafice

 

[Scaff]

We don't know the exact readings thus we both can't make the claim of having downplayed or not. I'm just citing you what was spoken this morning in the Italian news. And an attorney would be really stupid to say he has lots of documents proving this, when he wouldn't, but it's still a possibility.

They said prior to the quake happening.....

"At the controversial March 31 meeting in L'Aquila, earth scientist Enzo Boschi, a defendant in the case, acknowledged the uncertainty, calling a large earthquake "unlikely," but saying that the possibility could not be excluded. "

.....which doesn't to me sound like playing down a 2% chance at all.

The above part even the prosecution acknowledge.

We know that an evacuation cost a lot, this region doesn't have the money, so they maybe read the data too largely having this in mind,... We don't know.

fact is legistative steps should have been taken long ago to built building or fortify them to make them at least a minimum quake safe. This is the biggest problem and partely due to the mentality (citing the regional counsil, not me, though it wouldn't be racist, i'm half italian)

Also this seems a bit as a diversion to the fact that nothing has been rebuilt, lots of people still can't go into their houses,... So the state, town, needs a cow to sacrafice

And all of the above sound a lot more likely than the scientists misleading people, that the local government then used the information to miss-lead is a lot more likely.

 

[Ibonibo]

Read this, especially the phone call
http://news.sciencemag.org/scienceinsider/2012/05/earthquake-experts-finally-testi.html

While I totally agree with you on the impossiblity of prediciting a earthquake, it would not have been the badest idea to maybe evacuate the habitants of very old buildings that are very common in that region and to put them in the sport hall or something till the "swarm" quakes are over...

And as you can read, the scientist work for the gov. and thus could be in on the low budget managing of the situation

 

[Keef]

I'm really not surprised by this. It kind of fits into my stereotype of Italy being a fascist state where everybody dresses in robes, the young women are tall and gorgeous, the old women are short and fat, and the men sweat olive oil. This story supports the fascist thing.

 

[Danoff]

Putting these people in jail for manslaughter is a LOT different than fleecing a large company for damages they shouldn't have to pay. There are shenanigans in America, but we err on the side of letting guilty people off the hook.

Putting these innocent scientists in jail, as I mentioned in the opening post, would not just ruin the lives of people who did nothing wrong, it has the potential to kill tens of thousands who also did nothing wrong by altering the course of scientific development.

 

[Scaff]

Read this, especially the phone call
http://news.sciencemag.org/scienceinsider/2012/05/earthquake-experts-finally-testi.html

Which was not made by a scientist but an official with no experience in earthquakes. In other words someone takes the words of them, says something different and then they go to jail!

While I totally agree with you on the impossiblity of prediciting a earthquake, it would not have been the badest idea to maybe evacuate the habitants of very old buildings that are very common in that region and to put them in the sport hall or something till the "swarm" quakes are over...

And your going to do that every time a tremor happens?

Tremors that are quite common and 98% of the time result in nothing at all.

And as you can read, the scientist work for the gov. and thus could be in on the low budget managing of the situation

A government that wants to avoid having to pay to re-enforce buildings and to evacuate and feed people so will say what it wants to make it look like its OK and then blame someone else when it goes wrong.

 

[wfooshee]

..... it would not have been the badest [worst] idea to maybe evacuate the [in]habitants of very old buildings that are very common in that region and to put them in the sport hall or something till the "swarm" quakes are over...

For how long? Who says when the "swarm" quakes are over? Do you wait for 3 clean days, 7, or maybe a month? Does the government pay to house and feed these folks, and handle garbage and sewage, or do they bill the folks for it? And without codes, what makes the building housing the evacuees any better than their own homes?

Italian law seems to be based on assigning blame. Even more than American law is.

I am reminded of what the Williams F1 team went through after the Senna accident in 1994. Patrick Head and Adrian Newey were tried for homicide, citing culpability in a poor redesign of the steering column. They were initially acquitted in 1997, with the judge having ruled that the prosecution did not back up their case. Something else that is different in Italy is what happened next: a higher court ordered a retrial after acquittals came in the first trial! Patrick head was found guilty, but not arrested or sentenced, because the guilty verdict came 13 years after the accident, and the statute runs out at 7 years 6 months, according to a Wikipedia article on the trials.

So if the law allows the government to throw out an acquittal because they don't like it, and then allows a trial to proceed despite an expiration of statue of limitations, what can you expect when "They" need a scapegoat, someone who is not "Them?"

 

[Dennisch]

Luciano Maiami resigns after seven members of his committee are sentenced to jail for underestimating L'Aquila quake.

The head of Italy's top disaster body has resigned in protest after seven of the organisation's members were sentenced to six years in jail for manslaughter for underestimating the risks of a deadly 2009 earthquake.

Luciano Maiami told Italy's ANSA news agency that he had quit as head of the Major Risks Committee because "there aren't the conditions to work serenely," a day after the watershed ruling that sent shockwaves through the international scientific community.

The seven defendants are appealing Monday's ruling by the court in the medieval town of L'Aquila in central Italy, an area devastated by the April 2009 earthquake that killed 309 people.

Maiami, one of Italy's top physicists and a former head of the top partical physics laboratory Cern in Geneva, criticised the verdict as "a big mistake".

"These are professionals who spoke in good faith and were by no means motivated by personal interests, they had always said that it is not possible to predict an earthquake," he told the Corriere della Sera newspaper.

"It is impossible to produce serious, professional and disinterested advice under this mad judicial and media pressure. This sort of thing doesn't happen anywhere else in the world.

"This is the end of scientists giving consultations to the state."

All seven defendants were members of the Major Risks Committee which met in L'Aquila on March 31, 2009 - six days before the 6.3-magnitude quake devastated the region that left thousands homeless.

Under the Italian justice system, the seven remain free until they have used two chances to appeal the verdict, but the ruling has sparked outrage among the world's scientific community which says it has set a dangerous legal precedent.

 

[Liquid]

This thread raises the point that given GTP's international membership, we don't really have that many Italians. Or, many Italians who contribute to the Opinions forum.

 

[terminator363]

Because of this no one will want a career as a seismologist and then there won't be any readings at all.