Jordan Interview Coming...

[KiroKai]

Too accurate in many cases. They lack timbre which is why we all think that they sound horrible. Many games, such as Forza, get around this by adding a bunch of bass and make them sound like growling monsters.

When Kaz says "sexier" noises, it seems as though he's hinting to make them more aggressive, more like they have timbre.

Some sounds are plain wrong though, I will admit. But you people calling it garbage are being slightly too rough I think. I love how my Aston V12 sounds, as well as my Nissan 350Z. And especially the Gallardo.

The Gallardo is a great example of how PD took lots of short cuts in the sound department. Yes, it does sound good. But is it still nice to have this sound on the Gallardo, both Murciélago models, and the Aventador? Different engines, different sounds, PD have chosen the lazy copy & paste method. And it's not just Lamborghini where they've done that.

Not to mention the terrible samples they made up for the custom exhausts available for the Gallardo. They need to find a better solution for this if they want to improve sound, seriously. If any change at all, they should make the Gallardo sound closer to the unreal, but awesome NFSMW-like sound, which might be exaggerated, but does sound awesome, or 'sexy' how Yamauchi calls it.

 

[Griffith500]

The Gallardo is a great example of how PD took lots of short cuts in the sound department. Yes, it does sound good. But is it still nice to have this sound on the Gallardo, both Murciélago models, and the Aventador? Different engines, different sounds, PD have chosen the lazy copy & paste method. And it's not just Lamborghini where they've done that.

Not to mention the terrible samples they made up for the custom exhausts available for the Gallardo. They need to find a better solution for this if they want to improve sound, seriously. If any change at all, they should make the Gallardo sound closer to the unreal, but awesome NFSMW-like sound, which might be exaggerated, but does sound awesome, or 'sexy' how Yamauchi calls it.

That's all pretty trivial as long as someone pays attention to how those cars sound. Something tells me these low quality samples weren't given very much time, in favour of something else. I happen to think the Gallardo, in stock form, sounds pretty good by GT standards (the usual lack of intake notwithstanding), but obviously it was daft to use a V10 sound for the V12 models - yet, understandable at first glance. They do share, as I've said before, a similar sonic theme. As for some of the V8s, there's a good chance they do use V8 samples, just flat-plane instead of cross-plane.

As such, this just appears to be inattention, and is the same thing that plagues the car descriptions, stats, appearance, performance etc. Not that I'm excusing it, just that it's not a particularly difficult problem to tackle, unlike some of the more technical aspects. Perhaps that means it shouldn't be a problem in the first place, and I'd happily volunteer to comb through PD's legacy sample sets and re-allocate samples to all the cars in GT5 for them (according to my own concept of realism, naturally), but there's no harm in aiming for the sky (the potential to be found in new tech) rather than the safety net (tried and "true") in such a creative, non-essential medium as video-games-as-entertainment is.



Anyway, the interview is great - well balanced and reasoned. We're lucky to have someone like Jordan as a representative of the wider Gran Turismo community. 👍

 

[MeanElf]

I posted this in another thread a while back, but merits a repost. This explains to me what Kaz might have meant by engine sounds being too realistic:

I think that hits the mark nicely. It's also very logical. Thanks for reposting as I didn't see it anywhere else.

...Others - If I can give some advice to those unhappy with GT5.. It's ok to have issues with GT5 but the if you really are serious about someone from PDI listening to your ideas and feedback you should avoid the agressive and insulting stance.

Not only does it make YOU look bad, it is highly possible they won't give you or thoughts any attention.

Nicely said 👍

 

[1241Penguin]

Sorry i won't kiss the guys ass, if Helen Keller was alive she could literally listen and tell you they are crap. They should probably go buy a copy of Forza and check the sounds out, at least they sound like they are in the correct area code.

ONCE AGAIN thank you for reinforcing what he said.

KY never said that they sounds were good. The fact that he used the word "too" when saying "too realistic" suggests to me that he's acknowledging an issue with the sounds. You don't seem to realize that these technically aren't his words. It is merely Japanese translated into English by translator-san.

 

[Spagetti69]

Nice interview Jordan. Don't know where I got the idea that Kaz was giving info.
Oh well it's nice to see your views on GT. You didn't answer rewind and 24hr enduro saves though lol.

Can the sounds debate keep to the proper thread too. It's getting even older than it was before.

 

[Jordan]

Thanks, I'm glad you enjoyed the interview. 👍

Jordan-> Tx for your answer. I respect your opinion....but YOU said that some of us were short-sighted. That ,to me, sounds condescending. And, even if I see your point, your interpretation of Kaz's words seems VERY fastidious. As if you put words or thoughts in his minds.

If you are unhappy about things, i think you should be more vocal. Right now, no offense but I always feel like you are just some kind of unofficial PR for PD.

I don't know how closely you followed the spread of his comments after I posted that interview, but as is often the case in a world of soundbites and carefully selected excerpts, there were a lot of ridiculous comments posted here, in other forums, and all over the web. I do feel those reactions were short-sighted and are harmful to online discourse and debate, but I am not expressing condescension towards those who were unhappy with his response.

It is one thing to say "Ugh, I wish he had said more about the sounds and had made a stronger commitment to improve them! That didn't really tell us anything, but at least we now know he's aware of the criticism and is open to making changes." It's quite another to say "Haha! Kazunori thinks the sounds in GT are 'too real'! He is a delusional idiot!!!! Gran Turismo sucks!!!"

Kazunori does always speak in vague terms and never directly responds to criticism, which I believe makes his acknowledgement that they could do something differently all the more important. You might consider it fastidious, but I think it is unreasonably pessimistic to assume the sounds won't change with at least a marginal degree of improvement in the next game, considering his comments.

Finally, I don't "speak up" often because I know my opinion of what should happen in the game doesn't mean anything. Aside from my experience as a software developer, I know nothing about the challenges of recreating engine sounds of over 1,000 different cars or any of the other hundreds of serious production challenges that it takes to produce a modern video game at GT5's scale.

I do know how to host and maintain a platform which can be used by hundreds of thousands of other fans like me to discuss and debate the game in a neutral environment, and their collective opinion does matter. Call it "unofficial PR" if you like, but I think it's a much better use of my time than dispersing regular keyboard rants of my personal opinions.

ONCE AGAIN thank you for reinforcing what he said.

KY never said that they sounds were good. The fact that he used the word "too" when saying "too realistic" suggests to me that he's acknowledging an issue with the sounds. You don't seem to realize that these technically aren't his words. It is merely Japanese translated into English by translator-san.

It is worth mentioning that "Translator-san", Kazunori's famous translator and Polyphony Digital employee (he's responsible for translating the text to English in the games), was not present at SEMA last year and did not translate my interview.

He was injured in an accident - a broken leg or ankle, if I recall correctly - that prevented him from travelling, so Sony brought in an independent translator to help with the interview. I had a chat with her and she wasn't familiar with the Gran Turismo series before the assignment.

Her lack of understanding of the larger context of Kazunori's comments may have contributed to some mis-translations.

 

[DSUjoeDirte9]

The most noticable thing i think they could do for engine sounds i think would be turbo wine. (im not any type of sound guy or know much about engine sounds im guessing)

I kinda just assume this because whenever i play gt5 and then go play another racing game or watch a race or video on tv or my computer the first thing i notice missing is the transmission or turbo wine. Kaz did increase it a little bit in Gt5 with a patch, but its not quite enough and is barely noticable imo.

 

[KinLM]

Very good interview, I really appreciate the time that Mr. Jordan must sacrifice to go and share not only his, but also the community's main wish list items for GT6.

It's really appreciated by me and undoubtedly by the GTP community. Thanks

 

[maxpontiac]

It's ok to have issues with GT5 but if you really are serious about someone from PDI listening to your ideas and feedback you should avoid the agressive and insulting stance.

Different engines, different sounds, PD have chosen the lazy copy & paste method.

You made a ton of good points, yet revert to EXACTLY what I was talking about.

 

[C_Raccoon23]

I fail to see how using "lazy" is insulting or aggresive in that context. That wasn't even referring to PD themselves, but just the way they handled a matter. This is an example of what I think is insulting or aggressive.

"Haha! Kazunori thinks the sounds in GT are 'too real'! He is a delusional idiot!!!! Gran Turismo sucks!!!"

 

[A_Higher_Place]

I thoroughly enjoyed the interview, Jordan. Seems we have the same feelings and opinions on many things.

I believe B-spec should be kept in the game. But either bring B-spec and A-spec together so you can do 24 hour races with your B-spec "buddies" or just go back to the GT4 method. Where you can make your own B-spec races in Arcade.

 

[maxpontiac]

I fail to see how using "lazy" is insulting or aggresive in that context. That wasn't even referring to PD themselves, but just the way they handled a matter. This is an example of what I think is insulting or aggressive.

Anybody who believes PDI is being lazy is only fooling themselves because that word does NOT belong there.

Even if you decided to use it in describing how things were handled, again, not the correct word to use.

1540s, laysy, of unknown origin. Replaced native slack, slothful, and idle as the main word expressing the notion of "averse to work."

 

[Samus]

There is a different between someone being lazy and someone taking a lazy approach to certain things. For whatever reason PD used the same engine sounds across several cars, that is a lazy approach to the work of giving sounds to cars.

 

[MeanElf]

I fail to see how using "lazy" is insulting or aggresive in that context. That wasn't even referring to PD themselves, but just the way they handled a matter. This is an example of what I think is insulting or aggressive.

So it was related to PD themselves, as they were the ones doing it.

I think it is insulting, I mean how would you feel if you did your best at work on a particular thing and your supervisor or boss drops by to say that you have done it lazily. I think you'd be insulted, if not hurt because you have done your best.

There is a different between someone being lazy and someone taking a lazy approach to certain things. For whatever reason PD used the same engine sounds across several cars, that is a lazy approach to the work of giving sounds to cars.

This does not mean they have been lazy, just that they haven't got it right yet.

 

[Ramosis]

"I'd like to see more standing starts, and more competitive racing. In GT5, it often seems the challenge is to catch up with AI drivers who already have a big lead on you - this can often make it feel like hot-lapping instead of racing."

This is the biggest problem of GT5 IMO. I'dont fell I'm racing, just hot-lapping cars in a insane time trial. This sense of racing must come back in next GT game, PS3 or PS4 ( I really miss Test Drive Le Mans for Dreamcast in this aspect).

Another thing I wanted to see is the notion that driving/racing a car has costs. Real fuel consumption, worn tires and dampers, damage, costs game $$$, as well general maintenance for car after each race, or at the player will (beyond oil change, body and engine refreshing). Even new engines if necessary. This should educate the "driver" to not take unnecessary risks, driving more realistically, unlike GT5 that encourages inappropriate driving (mainly because unfair, espaced rolling starts and/or rabbit cars).

 

[research]

Aw man Jordan you lumped my comment in with cassiusclay's as you were responding to him. It should be obvious that I was having a little bit (ok, a LOT) of fun when I "translated" Kaz's interview. I don't mean to disrespect, as I still love the guy. It is also comforting to hear your thoughts on his answers in this infamous interview, and I believe we all appreciate you admitting that.

It is fair to say that Kaz is 'aware' of the sound problem, but I maintain my stance that he did not actually acknowledge it in a sense of wanting to change the sounds in an authentic way- as opposed to the topical method of 'adding sexyness'.

It is certainly worth noting that Griffith500 makes a critical point in this discussion- the start-up sounds of these engines are absolutely beautiful, and seemingly unique to each car. Fantastic stuff. Something just goes to hell when it's time to drive them, though.

Apologies to the few of you who were offended by my caricature of Kazunori. I don't hate the guy- I was merely having some fun with how he is perceived by much of this community, and this perception has become exaggerated with good reason. Dude is crazy. ; )

 

[maxpontiac]

So it was related to PD themselves, as they were the ones doing it.

I think it is insulting, I mean how would you feel if you did your best at work on a particular thing and your supervisor or boss drops by to say that you have done it lazily. I think you'd be insulted, if not hurt because you have done your best.


This does not mean they have been lazy, just that they haven't got it right yet.

Nothing more to say after that!👍

 

[BoneSawTX]

There is a different between someone being lazy and someone taking a lazy approach to certain things. For whatever reason PD used the same engine sounds across several cars, that is a lazy approach to the work of giving sounds to cars.

That is the definition of lazy, time was not taken to give cars their individual sound so they took a short cut and said this is good enough. If my boss didn't tell me that was lazy I'd be worried about where the company is headed. What they have put out sound wise is far from the best, and if thats the best they can do then they need to find new people. There are guys out there that put out sound packs for games that do it just for fun and their work is way beyond what PD has ever produced.

 

[cassiusclay99]

that is the definition of lazy, time was not taken to give cars their individual sound so they took a short cut and said this is good enough. If my boss didn't tell me that was lazy i'd be worried about where the company is headed. What they have put out sound wise is far from the best, and if thats the best they can do then they need to find new people. There are guys out there that put out sound packs for games that do it just for fun and their work is way beyond what pd has ever produced.

+1

 

[Griffith500]

I did a Google image search for "lazy", this is the typical result:

Then for "Polyphony Digital", I found this:


Vindication!

There is a different between someone being lazy and someone taking a lazy approach to certain things. For whatever reason PD used the same engine sounds across several cars, that is a lazy approach to the work of giving sounds to cars.

Taking a lazy approach to something is being lazy - you're doing something lazily. By which I mean your attempts at doublespeak.

And for what reason does "for some reason", i.e. "I don't know", immediately become "because laziness" in your eyes? Because vindication (of your prejudices, e.g. that PD are incompetent)? Did no other possibility ever cross your mind? Did your parents always assume the worst in you, too?

That is the definition of lazy, time was not taken to give cars their individual sound so they took a short cut and said this is good enough. If my boss didn't tell me that was lazy I'd be worried about where the company is headed. What they have put out sound wise is far from the best, and if thats the best they can do then they need to find new people. There are guys out there that put out sound packs for games that do it just for fun and their work is way beyond what PD has ever produced.

How do you know this is the best they can do when all that appears to be in GT5 is stuff they did for older hardware (new cars clearly have old samples mixed together in their stock sounds!)? As such, assuming that's accurate (the samples are the same length they were in GT2, at least), we have not heard anything they have authored recently.

I personally think that's because their recent work has been targeted at the PS4, similar to the decision to make the Premiums in the detail they are. The difference being that graphics are popularly more important than sound (not my view) and that the PS3 can do lots of polys (except when it can't - slowdowns), but not lots of megabytes of sound files and lots of polys and everything else GT5 does all at the same time with 512 Mb of combined memory and equally limited bandwidth to manipulate that memory.

 

[BoneSawTX]

I did a Google image search for "lazy", this is the typical result:


Then for "Polyphony Digital", I found this:


Vindication!



Taking a lazy approach to something is being lazy - you're doing something lazily. By which I mean your attempts at doublespeak.

And for what reason does "for some reason", i.e. "I don't know", immediately become "because laziness" in your eyes? Because vindication (of your prejudices, e.g. that PD are incompetent)? Did no other possibility ever cross your mind? Did your parents always assume the worst in you, too?


How do you know this is the best they can do when all that appears to be in GT5 is stuff they did for older hardware (new cars clearly have old samples mixed together in their stock sounds!)? As such, assuming that's accurate (the samples are the same length they were in GT2, at least), we have not heard anything they have authored recently.

I personally think that's because their recent work has been targeted at the PS4, similar to the decision to make the Premiums in the detail they are. The difference being that graphics are popularly more important than sound (not my view) and that the PS3 can do lots of polys (except when it can't - slowdowns), but not lots of megabytes of sound files and lots of polys and everything else GT5 does all at the same time with 512 Mb of combined memory and equally limited bandwidth to manipulate that memory.

You're right, if as good as they can do is coddle together old sounds in how ever many years it was between 4 and 5 when they knew what they were working with and no PS4 insight then my expectations were and are too high.

Been playing since day one of the series, sound had always been weak but i figured they'd get it right eventually. I figured by the time GT5 came out V8's would sound their part but I was wrong for that.

Now that I see sounds are 'too real' and we are 'short-sighted', we should expand this thinking. The trees on some of the tracks are too real as is the barren wasteland that is Laguna Seca, too real. Tire physics, pssh way too real.

The standards at release having bad quality, poor ai and playing chase the rabbit instead of competitive racing, too real.

 

[Griffith500]

You're right, if as good as they can do is coddle together old sounds in how ever many years it was between 4 and 5 when they knew what they were working with and no PS4 insight then my expectations were and are too high.

That's not what I said.

Been playing since day one of the series, sound had always been weak but i figured they'd get it right eventually. I figured by the time GT5 came out V8's would sound their part but I was wrong for that.

Me too. Except that I recognise the quantum leap in sound that GT2 brought in terms of the samples, then the jump that GT3 brought in terms of 3D positional audio, multiple sound sources per car, high-resolution audio control and the start of PD's simulation approach that continued through GT5 and GT5 - the samples, though, stayed the same from GT2 on. We have not heard them make samples to any modern standard, but that doesn't mean they can't do it and doesn't even mean they haven't done it (absence of proof is not proof of absence). Besides, there are some nice sounding (cross-plane) V8 samples in the game, they're just rarely found in all the right places. Hybriding can fix that for now, but ideally they should have been right in the first place, and there should be more ways to customise the sounds, too (the fact that GT is currently the only game of its kind that changes sounds with "tuning" should be significant, but is often overlooked.)

So, rather than really have a good think about why that might be, you seem convinced that you know exactly why it is; and of course your chosen explanation is something that paints somebody you already don't like in a bad light. Did you even read Jordan's post?

Now that I see sounds are 'too real' and we are 'short-sighted', we should expand this thinking. The trees on some of the tracks are too real as is the barren wasteland that is Laguna Seca, too real. Tire physics, pssh way too real.

The standards at release having bad quality, poor ai and playing chase the rabbit instead of competitive racing, too real.

Yes, assuming Kaz ever said any of that, we can be confident that he's admitting all of those things still need work, too.

 

[TokoTurismo]

that's not what i said.


Me too. Except that i recognise the quantum leap in sound that gt2 brought in terms of the samples, then the jump that gt3 brought in terms of 3d positional audio, multiple sound sources per car, high-resolution audio control and the start of pd's simulation approach that continued through gt5 and gt5 - the samples, though, stayed the same from gt2 on. We have not heard them make samples to any modern standard, but that doesn't mean they can't do it and doesn't even mean they haven't done it (absence of proof is not proof of absence). Besides, there are some nice sounding (cross-plane) v8 samples in the game, they're just rarely found in all the right places. Hybriding can fix that for now, but ideally they should have been right in the first place, and there should be more ways to customise the sounds, too (the fact that gt is currently the only game of its kind that changes sounds with "tuning" should be significant, but is often overlooked.)

so, rather than really have a good think about why that might be, you seem convinced that you know exactly why it is; and of course your chosen explanation is something that paints somebody you already don't like in a bad light. Did you even read jordan's post?


Yes, assuming kaz ever said any of that, we can be confident that he's admitting all of those things still need work, too.

+10

 

[xStretch-]

Sounds not to important. I don't mind the sound on GT5

There is other things to focus on....

 

[Slash]

@Jordan

I'm glad you piped up about drag racing in GT6. Hopefully it becomes reality.


About sound:


Muscle needs to sound like this. That's all.

 

[C_Raccoon23]

So it was related to PD themselves, as they were the ones doing it.

I think it is insulting, I mean how would you feel if you did your best at work on a particular thing and your supervisor or boss drops by to say that you have done it lazily. I think you'd be insulted, if not hurt because you have done your best.

I see your point but looking at GT5 overall, it's obvious PD didn't try their best on a number of things. If car sounds was one of them, then I think saying they chose a lazy method is justified.

 

[GTP_FastM3]

As I said, its clear to me that Kazunori thinks the sound should change. When he says the sounds are "too real" or "too accurate" and then goes on to state Polyphony should challenge themselves to "design" the sound, he's not boasting or calling critics "morons", as you suggested. He's stating that things should change and improve. How does that not acknowledge the problem or describe how it can be corrected? If "designing" the sound can provide us with engines that sound more visceral and emotive and make the overall experience more exciting and immersive, is that not a good thing? Is that not what we want?

I think what people are taking issue with is his statement that the sounds are "too real". There is no way the sounds in GT5 are too real, anybody who's played it knows it doesn't sound at all like real cars. The fact that he would answer that way really upsets people that have been upset with GT5's sounds for years. I suspect "too real" isn't what he was trying to say and that the real meaning got lost in translation.

 

[Slash]

I still didn't read it like that, regardless of what Kaz meant and I'm sure the many hundreds of thousands of fans that read it didn't read it that way either.

 

[05XR8]

What I gather from the sounds being too real is that the majority of small passenger cars in the game sound realistic. I had a 1.0L Charade and anywhere in the rpm it sounds like the cars in GT. I've been to garages and watched cars dyno'd, when highly tuned cars( 500hp RX2's, RX4's, even my friend's XA &XC 550hp Fairmonts) sound high pitch and I believe Kaz recorded cars at their higher pitches if I'm correct(can't remember the interview or what year it was when he talks about recording engine sounds- may have been for Gran Turismo 2). I personally don't take offence to anything in the interview. It's his game and I guess he tried to be true in the aspect of racing as opposed to low rev range cruising. Just my view.

 

[machschnel]

I suspect "too real" isn't what he was trying to say and that the real meaning got lost in translation.

Maybe it's time the company that sold over 9 million copies of it's latest iteration makes a significant upgrade at the PR department. Things getting "lost in translation" is inexcusable for a company like Polyphony.

As for the sounds, they are probably recorded accurately, but the results of this method obviously aren't the best in-game, hence the "too real" comment. His comments regarding "design" might imply something like intentionally distorting the audio, similar to Forza. But of course, then the sounds are less "real".