Just starting online. Should you only race in Gr.4 and N races?

MisterMarcoo

MisterMarcoo

11
Netherlands
Netherlands
MisterMarcoo
Hi guys,

New to the forum, new to GTS. I did play Gran Turismo before and I bought a T300 rs gt in March. As you might guess, my experience is not that high. I don't see myself as a good racer, but I do love to learn. I finished everything gold in campaign to "prepare" for online and did some cups. Those cups were too easy, so I just had to stop that and now I played around 35 races online, with one win so far. I try to lose TCS, which I don't need in Gr.4, but I still use it in Gr.3 races at 1 or 2, I use 0 on qualifiying, but too 'scared' to spin in the race...
This might also be important: I have a fulltime job, so my learning curve might be longer then regular and I try to keep this in mind.

I had DR D halfway and SR B, but I lost all of my score yesterday in the GR.3 race on Autodromo de Interlagos. Especially since I had the feeling that just got bumped off track in that first corner, which gave me penalties, lower SR and for me the race was actually already over when it started. This happened every time I did that race.

I noticed that in GR.4 it seems a lot easier to race. To me it seems that there is a lot less bumping into each other then in Gr.3. A few days ago I had the exact same thing in a Gr.3 race and it's really frustrating. It's not my style to blame it on competitors, therefore I believe it's my own fault and I just can't handle the Gr.3 cars. But I do want to improve my driving, so I check a lot of streams on Twitch / YT Gaming, and watched tutorials to get better, but I still have some questions:

1. In a lot 'first corners' in races I get this 'creeping' feeling that I will get bumped off track, because the pack is really tight at that moment and with the slipstream, it gets tighter and tighter. I don't want to bump into the person before me or get off track, but I also don't want to brake too hard, since the people behind me will bump into me. What can I do about that? Should I stay on the outside (and probably lose positions) or should I just stay on the race line and defend my position? I notice that the start of the race is my biggest pitfall.

2. Maybe the most important question: Should I keep on racing Gr.4 racing untill I got some more experience? And if yes, what about days, where the dailies are only Gr.3 or higher (like today)? How can I work on my DR and SR then? Just the Brand races?

I hope you can help me. :-)
 
I think a lot of the issues you're having with Gr.3 may stem from the fact that they're overall faster than Gr.4 and the speeds involved are a lot higher, therefore everything is riskier. I'd say stick at it and you'll get used to them in time. I find Gr.3 much easier to race in than Gr.4 as the cars tend to be more exciting to drive and it keeps me more engaged!

Regarding the first corner it can be difficult to know what to do but personally I hold my line and leave a small gap between me and the car in front. Don't be afraid about being rammed from behind on the first braking zone, most drivers at the higher levels can anticipate that the first corner will be slower than the following laps and react accordingly. Those that don't should end up with penalties, (although that doesn't always happen) and unless they're going absolutely crazy speeds when they hit you you should be able to recover fairly quickly.
 
Welcome to GTS and GTP! :D

Before answering your questions, I can see why you had such an experience at Interlagos. That track has a stop-start chicane for Turn 1, and because of that crashes will almost always happen in the first turn of the first lap. You can mitigate this somewhat by choosing your tracks that don't have this (ie. Suzuka and Yamagiwa), but that'll really limit your track choices and you'd rely on chance for Sport mode to give you dailies that have those tracks.

So for number 1, it's situational. It's good to assess the situation before Turn 1. Do you see someone at the back break away from the line and go to the inside line? Turn in late and stay on the outside. Chances are they might divebomb. You might lose positions, but in stop-start T1 tracks like Monza, the chaos that divebomber will cause should be enough to give you back the positions you lost. But what if you don't see anyone and the brake point is nearing? It might be worth defending the inside if that's the case :) your judgements may be rough at first, but the only way to hone it is through experience. Soon enough you'll be able to avoid crashes at T1 regardless of the track :)

Number 2: You can already do no assists in Gr. 4, which is I think the perfect category to learn how to take off those assists. My advice here is to find some casual lobbies with Gr. 3 and hone your racecraft in that group there. Gr. 4's really tame compared to Gr. 3 and other than the general racing line and braking points, there's barely anything you can carry over from Gr. 4 to 3. For races without Gr. 4, the N-class dailies should suffice, if you don't mind the short tracks. They're also a perfect learning ground of how to approach and stay at the limit since they cars are eally easy to read :)

Enjoy!
 
I agree with Cipher, the N cars are really great for learning about weight distribution as the GR. 3 cars are far more subtle in conveying any sense of weight transfer. It really opens your eyes when you have to huck your weight over the front end of a car just to get a road car to turn properly.
 
Each class has it's own challenges and some classes are more forgiving than others.

I like the GR3 class for learning throttle control however this class will really make you pay for a mistake with that rampant snap oversteer.

GR 4 is all about perfecting the racing line and driving smooth to carry momentum through corners. This is where I disagree with @Alpha Cipher about not having many skills in GR4 that transfer to other classes. The class may be more forgiving of mistakes and lack a hair trigger throttle but the smoothness you need to be fast is very important in all classes.

Alot of people imo have issues in GR3 because they try to carry speeds through corners that they haven't set themselves up for which causes late steering corrections (causing oversteer upon throttle application) or slow corner exit speeds they then overcompensate with throttle and again spin. This is what makes GR3 challenging for me at least.

Racing GR4 has really smoothed out my driving and really helped me improve my consistency through teaching me the correct way around the track. I can then jump into GR3 and know where in the corner you can begin applying throttle, where the correct turn in points are and how much speed you should carry through the apex.
 
Other good places to start are the Time Trials and Custom Races. Start out with a few races in the class you want, set the opposition to easy (or down a class) and generally mess around. You'll get the hang of the game quick enough and make a bit of money. Up the difficulty with cars in the same class and you'll get more money and a better challenge to cut your teeth on. Also do the Daily Workout. Try to do it as quickly and smoothly as possible. You'll find yourself getting the hang of all cars reasonably quick. Another idea is try an find a few friends (here or in real life) to play online with you. You'll improve quick enough.

A golden rule to remember with all this is to be gentle with the controls, especially Accelleration and Brakes. Use the progression of the controls and don't just stab at them. You'll find yourself doing better than you think. Also Practice, Practice, Practice. An hour or two a night and you'll have the hang of it by the end of the week. Keep going and you'll be better by the end of the month. Lastly concentrate. Focus on the screen and try not to be distracted, most mistakes happen because of not paying attention, escpecially rookie mistakes. Thinking too much is another :)
 
John Crellin
I like the GR3 class for learning throttle control however this class will really make you pay for a mistake with that rampant snap oversteer.

GR 4 is all about perfecting the racing line and driving smooth to carry momentum through corners. This is where I disagree with @Alpha Cipher about not having many skills in GR4 that transfer to other classes. The class may be more forgiving of mistakes and lack a hair trigger throttle but the smoothness you need to be fast is very important in all classes.
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True. In GR 4 I'm constantly trying to get as much throttle into a turn as possible. In some cars you literally have to feed both throttle and brake around the apex to get the thing to rotate correctly. In GR3, you try that and you're just losing your ass. It's interesting finding the corners where simply coasting and coming out balanced gives you a better exit speed than trying to shoe horn the throttle into the line.

I'm still not used to GR2 where I'm still racing every course like it was a drag strip.
 
John Crellin
Each class has it's own challenges and some classes are more forgiving than others.

I like the GR3 class for learning throttle control however this class will really make you pay for a mistake with that rampant snap oversteer.

GR 4 is all about perfecting the racing line and driving smooth to carry momentum through corners. This is where I disagree with @Alpha Cipher about not having many skills in GR4 that transfer to other classes. The class may be more forgiving of mistakes and lack a hair trigger throttle but the smoothness you need to be fast is very important in all classes.

Alot of people imo have issues in GR3 because they try to carry speeds through corners that they haven't set themselves up for which causes late steering corrections (causing oversteer upon throttle application) or slow corner exit speeds they then overcompensate with throttle and again spin. This is what makes GR3 challenging for me at least.

Racing GR4 has really smoothed out my driving and really helped me improve my consistency through teaching me the correct way around the track. I can then jump into GR3 and know where in the corner you can begin applying throttle, where the correct turn in points are and how much speed you should carry through the apex.
Click to expand...

Your reaction about throttle control in Gr.3 is something I noticed too. I never used TCS below 2. Started to practice at throttle control in Gr.4, where it was quite easy imo. and since then I don't need TCS anymore in Gr.4 and not that often in Gr.3.

So you say, practice in Gr.4 till you know the tracks and the game and then "up your game"?
(btw, this also sounds logic. In real life you also don't start in the fastest category)
 
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John Crellin
Each class has it's own challenges and some classes are more forgiving than others.

I like the GR3 class for learning throttle control however this class will really make you pay for a mistake with that rampant snap oversteer.

GR 4 is all about perfecting the racing line and driving smooth to carry momentum through corners. This is where I disagree with @Alpha Cipher about not having many skills in GR4 that transfer to other classes. The class may be more forgiving of mistakes and lack a hair trigger throttle but the smoothness you need to be fast is very important in all classes.

Alot of people imo have issues in GR3 because they try to carry speeds through corners that they haven't set themselves up for which causes late steering corrections (causing oversteer upon throttle application) or slow corner exit speeds they then overcompensate with throttle and again spin. This is what makes GR3 challenging for me at least.

Racing GR4 has really smoothed out my driving and really helped me improve my consistency through teaching me the correct way around the track. I can then jump into GR3 and know where in the corner you can begin applying throttle, where the correct turn in points are and how much speed you should carry through the apex.
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Sorry, I wasn't able to elaborate myself. Basically what you said falls under my vague "general racing line" :D
How to carry momentum, turn-in points, braking points, and when to throttle are skills that can be learned in Gr. 4 that can be applied in Gr. 3

The reason I said you can barely apply anything from Gr. 4 to 3 aside from those is because Gr. 4 can forgive you for having a line that's smooth enough for Gr. 4, but will lead you to constant spins in Gr. 3. Their handling characteristics in general are too different that you can't apply the same techniques you use in Gr. 4 to countersteer in Gr. 3 without losing so much time. So yeah, that's the reasoning behind my statements :cheers:
 
@cudwieser I think your right about "don't think too much". I think that's what is happening in the first corner of a track. I started thinking, "oh god, here we go, how to avoid collisions?" and maybe that's distracting too much, making me holding back...
 
MisterMarcoo
Your reaction about throttle control in Gr.3 is something I noticed too. I never used TCS below 2. Started to practice at throttle control in Gr.4, where it was quite easy imo. and since then I don't need TCS anymore in Gr.4 and not that often in Gr.3.

So you say, practice in Gr.4 till you know the tracks and the game and then "up your game"?
(btw, this also sounds logic. In real life you also don't start in the fastest category)
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Its up to you. Just drive what you like but realize that there are things to be learned from each category. I find that GR 3 is a bit more competitive and the skills required to dive them at their limits are a bit steeper than Gr 4 but you gotta race GR 3 to be fast at Gr 3
 
MisterMarcoo
@cudwieser I think your right about "don't think too much". I think that's what is happening in the first corner of a track. I started thinking, "oh god, here we go, how to avoid collisions?" and maybe that's distracting too much, making me holding back...
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One thing I've found helps with first corner mess is one of two things. Either commit or hang back. I'm actually a very casual player, so I'm hardly the most 'expert' racer yet even I've learned that even if you are racing AI or Humans a number of things are guarenteed (a rare thing but there are a few truths to look for). If you are playing online try and qualify as near the front as you can. It leaves only one thing to focus on, the turn. As long as you have the 'right' line and the awareness of the fact it's a race (here comes the first guarentee) you effectively control the race and can take the corner smoothly and safely 'inspite of the kamakazis (these are the guarentee. You will always get an idiot, but they are everybodies problem not just yours). Those behind will try to be clever but they aren't your focus on the first turn as if anyone following proper etiquette will know not to force their way through. If you leave them a gap however, then you need to have the respect of anyone who takes the opportunity in the same way you'll exploit mistakes, so focus on picking the right line and getting to and through the corner and let those behind worry about getting passed you. f you do get put off then focus on getting back on track safely and getting back into the race. Be aware of others still in the race and be willing to let the whole field go through to give yourself some space unless you can find a gap to safely join.

If you don't qualify or don't qualify on pole then hang back and let the leader get through the first corner first (unless they leave a gap then calmly put yourself in the gap, but give them racing room). The mistake an amateur makes is trying to win the entire race at the first corner. A race ends at the finish line. Unless that's the first corner then you've more of a race to run before you win. As the next two truths go, 'to finish first, first you must finish' and 'you can win a race at the first cornerbut you can certainly lose it'. As long as you are still in the race you can win, but if you go off or do something else stupid you will give the victory away before you've even had a look at it.
If you have people ahead of you, then focus on hanging back (let others pass if you have to) and picking the right line (tight in and slowly round with a clean and quick exit) to avoid the lunacy of cars going off and coming back on. By the time the first corner passes and you set yourself up for the next you'll likely find you've passed about a third of the field (if you start at the back) before they know where the track is. At that point you'll be chasing cars in groups of 1-3 and will be chased in a similar manner. By the start of the second lap the race becomes more 'mannerly'.

I'm guessing you don't drive in real life. I make that assertion as the same basics apply in racing game. You focus on what is immediately in front, you use your senses to control your actions and you use the various inputs available (such as the mirrors, maps and proximety indicators) to cover the blind spots. The last thing you ever do is think about what you need to do (you are taught to relax, clear your mind and listen to the car, feel the car and to keep your eyes on the road with occasional glances at the mirrors). Practice just driving a car (start with an N400) around a track with other cars and try holding position, try achieving 3 lap times within a tenth of a second of each other and then try passing some cars. Do this with a full field of cars (N400) in a long endurence race (1 hour or more). Do that then try a faster car (N600 or N800) and repeat. If you feel game compete agains opponets one class up. Do all of that with a stock or unmodded car first to get a feel for something basic. Once you're familiar with a bog standard car, try a Gr 4 with a standard setup. You'll find that the reactions and motions are the same as a standard car, just quicker. If you're comfortable just 'driving' a standard car, as long as you relax you'll find yourself able to meet the reactions of the Gr 4 as your body has already trained itself what to do without thinking. It will just need to acclimatise to the more immediate and precise input (10 laps around a good track will do). Gr 3 et al are just more of the same. Adjusting the components are means of altering those reactions and the overall character of the car, but I or some here can get into that in another post if you want :)
 
MisterMarcoo
@cudwieser thanks for the reply, will try the training like you say.
Just for the record, I do drive in real life, but just on the regular road in a VW Polo :P
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No probs. Just treat the game like you treat the roads. GT is a sim and for the most part will act in a manner similar to real life. start by appraching it as if you were going for a sunday drive and let it evolve naturally from there. It'll surprise you how quickly you'll find your feet with the cars you want to drive. Let us know how you get on. :)
 
Allright, so I played only 3 races yesterday (it's 9:11 am here now) and I'm quite happy with the result.
I only did daily A (Kyoto Driving Park), since this is the slowest of the three and I figured that's the best place to start. No TCS and played with BB a little bit.
Did some qualifications and started the first race in 6th, ended 5th, while first begin dropped to 10th or 11th (was playing it too safe in cornering)
Next race started 4th, ended 2nd, no drop, just racing competitive (and a lot of people messed up that first big corner by going way too wide, expect for the winner...)
Next race started 2th, ended 2nd and I was THIS close to winning. He was lucky in the last corner, where he overtook me again.
Unfortunately I had to stop...
No victories, but my DR is back to half to C and my SR is back in C, so that's fine for now. And on top of that, I had three consecutive clean races and a race with fastest lap.

I guess my lesson here is that I shouldn't play the fast races, just because it's possible, I like the speed and because the GT League is pretty simple. Online racing is a total different way of racing and I should start with the easier ones to learn to play against human beings and to get that feeling about defending in corners and stuff you all mentioned. When I start winning some races or get a feeling I'm ready to "upgrade" I will.

For now, just learning the game is fine. :)

Thanks for everyone's tips, it really helped to play more relaxed which made a lot more fun to race.
 
MisterMarcoo
Allright, so I played only 3 races yesterday (it's 9:11 am here now) and I'm quite happy with the result.
I only did daily A (Kyoto Driving Park), since this is the slowest of the three and I figured that's the best place to start. No TCS and played with BB a little bit.
Did some qualifications and started the first race in 6th, ended 5th, while first begin dropped to 10th or 11th (was playing it too safe in cornering)
Next race started 4th, ended 2nd, no drop, just racing competitive (and a lot of people messed up that first big corner by going way too wide, expect for the winner...)
Next race started 2th, ended 2nd and I was THIS close to winning. He was lucky in the last corner, where he overtook me again.
Unfortunately I had to stop...
No victories, but my DR is back to half to C and my SR is back in C, so that's fine for now. And on top of that, I had three consecutive clean races and a race with fastest lap.

I guess my lesson here is that I shouldn't play the fast races, just because it's possible, I like the speed and because the GT League is pretty simple. Online racing is a total different way of racing and I should start with the easier ones to learn to play against human beings and to get that feeling about defending in corners and stuff you all mentioned. When I start winning some races or get a feeling I'm ready to "upgrade" I will.

For now, just learning the game is fine. :)

Thanks for everyone's tips, it really helped to play more relaxed which made a lot more fun to race.
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Well done and keep going. At the end of the day you only get the hang of things the more you try and none of us were Ayrton Senna out of the block. Humans are unpredictable (so are internet connections, but that's another story ;) ) so don't try to predict them. Something tells me you know more than you think and if you keep relaxing, much of what you know and will know will come out without you jamming the signals by thinking. Driving and racing (and sports in general) are instictive by nature and instict grows with experience. So when you're not racing online and are just passing time, take a car to a random track (try to get a clean lap in the Red Bull X around Dragon Trail for a bit of fun) and just cruise and try for a few quick laps (do the daily work out).

Also in defending all you need do is put your car in the right place on the track to force other drivers off their line to get round you. Don't weave and act the tit, just hold your line and force their line. An advanced bit of advice is to learn the tracks and where overtaking places are and what the flow of the track is. This is another good reason to just cruise and mess about in a time trial. Tracks like Suzuka have corners that are more complex and varied and lend themselves to more creative driving as you're not driving one corner, but a string of them. That means to pass (and defend) you aren't simply taking the racing line for one corner but a string of them. This is something you'll pick up the more you drive the different tracks.

Finally an old story. I was often told (but never really had an oppprtunity due to insurance) that those who were allowed and able to mess up and mess around on open land with little to no instruction often proved to be better drivers. Those left to their imagination, with an okd banger and their own wit and judgement, away from others and only a danger to themselves often picked up the skills for good driving far quicker than those in a sanitised and organised manner. Consider going to a nice wide track and trying to spin, drift and mess about to see where your imagination takes you and ultimately relax and unwind.
 
I have some pointers for you. If you want them. lol

I said that already, but you were not here! Welcome!

Whenever you’re training / qualifying, try to keep what you’re trying to achieve in mind. Detailed stuff. Precise braking points or gears... steering angle... whatever you are trying to improve, pay attention to it and its reason. Evaluate how you’re improving or not and why. Always think! Paying attention to the details while training is going to build your “muscle memory”. It’s going to make it more automatic for you. Once you start feeling more comfortable and feeling like you don’t have to spend so much energy minding what you are doing, find something else to improve and start all over again. This takes time, months. The more you pay attention to when training, the less you need to think about it when racing, so you’ll have more spare time to think about other things, like managing fuel and tires and others’ positions and gaps. If you’re trying too hard to keep your car on track during race, it’s gonna be hard to do it in T1 when everybody is looking for a gap at the same time and place.

About T1, I always try to go super slow on the inside. Super slow! Braking smoothly and early, so people behind me know what I’m doing, and leaving the outside for the heroes. Then I’ll turn in the car and start accelerating as soon as I can, making a gap to the ones that were using the same line, and trying to not let those “outsiders” overtake me.

About assists, my personal view is, I don’t like them. I don’t use them, apart from ABS default. It’s super frustrating sometimes. It hurts my ego, but in the long run, I feel that I improve faster if I just go through it and crash a million times until I learn.

About goals, I don’t really set my goal to win a race. My goal is always to finish at my starting position. Obviously, I’ll try to overtake, but I’ll try not to be super aggressive. If I maintain my placement, it means I belong there, and my qualy lap was a good indicator of my skills.

If you have more questions, feel free to ask. I’m not the fastest around here, but I like to try to help.
 
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