KERS/DRS Implementation & How It Can Be Improved

[LeGeNd-1]

As you know the latest update brings about the ability to engage P2P/KERS/DRS systems manually. Previously in GT6 you were also able to do this and so far the implementation is similar. However, since GTS is a FIA game and we are always striving for maximum realism, I thought of making this thread to highlight how things could be improved. Hopefully someone from PD takes note. If not, it's just interesting to see where the game differs from reality and whether this is a conscious decision or a limitation of the game engine.

As per the patch notes, in GTS currently we have 3 different "types" of boost:

- Increased Engine Output (P2P):
・Super Formula Dallara SF19 Super Formula / Honda '19
・Super Formula Dallara SF19 Super Formula / Toyota '19

- Kinetic Energy Recovery System (KERS)
・Dodge SRT Tomahawk X Vision Gran Turismo
・Dodge SRT Tomahawk GTS-R Vision Gran Turismo
・Dodge SRT Tomahawk S Vision Gran Turismo
・INFINITI CONCEPT Vision Gran Turismo
・LEXUS LF-LC GT Vision Gran Turismo
・NISSAN CONCEPT 2020 Vision Gran Turismo
・Toyota Toyota FT-1 Vision Gran Turismo

- Drag Reduction System (DRS)
・Bugatti Vision Gran Turismo (Gr.X) (automatically deployed hence not listed in the official patch notes)
・McLaren P1 GTR
・McLaren Ultimate Vision Gran Turismo (Gr.X)
・Mercedes-AMG F1 W08 EQ Power+ 2017
・Mercedes-AMG F1 W08 EQ Power+ (Color Variation) 2017
・Subaru WRX STI Isle of Man Time Attack Car '16


P2P
- For this group, I have no complaints. Implementation is perfect in my opinion. PD even lets you scale the duration of boost usage depending on the length of the race (real life is 100 seconds per race).

KERS

• For this group, I think the Tomahawk should be reclassified under DRS. If you look up the car info description, what the overtake button does is pull back all the wings for minimum drag, and uses air from the car's compressed air tanks to smoothen airflow around the car. In the original VGT press blurb it was mentioned that the pneumatic systems can also increase power (don't ask me how), but in the grand scheme of things, the drag reduction is the primary objective here.
• The other Vision GT cars are fine. No change from GT6 and they are all fantasy cars anyway so PD can do with them as they see fit.
• LMP1s and hybrid supercars like LaFerrari should be included in this group. I know they have the battery meter on the HUD which discharges automatically, but in real life you can also override the ECU programming and press a button to deploy the batteries more rapidly for overtaking situations.

DRS

• Both the P1 GTR and W08 actually have KERS and DRS systems that can be deployed independent of each other in real life. I think, if PD wants maximum realism, we should be able to assign 2 separate buttons for KERS/P2P and DRS. I mean, even Driveclub allows separate assignment and that's just an arcade game
• The W08 also has multiple modes for its energy deployment system (either more focus on recovery or deployment). I'm not suggesting PD copy Assetto Corsa and have you read a 10 page pdf just to be able to drive the car, but integrating this into the Fuel Map would be nice and opens up a whole host of strategy possibilities online and in FIA races (if the car ever gets used).
• DRS zone implementation is a bit weird here. Essentially any straight where you can go full throttle allows you to open the DRS. But it's not marked on the track and you just get a tiny flashing indicator on the HUD to signal when it's available. Essentially it's just like before the update where the wing opens automatically if you're going straight, but this time YOU have to remember to press the button instead of the game doing it for you. In my mind, if they want to make DRS free for all, then just make it truly free. If we want to try going through 130R with the wing open, just let us do it!

-If they want to implement proper DRS zones for the FIA races, then it should be like F1 (1-3 designated straights per track, with a DRS detection in the corner before it and you have to be within 1 second of the car in front). The zones should be clearly marked on the track (like the penalty zones).
-Last point, this is just personal preference from playing Assetto Corsa. KERS buttons are the same in both games in that they have to be held down to be activated (and stops as soon as you release it). But DRS button in GT has to be held down to keep the wing open. Whereas in AC it's more practical: one press and it's open, another press and it closes (or you just press the brake). Don't need to hold it all the way.

Any thoughts/suggestions/comments welcome

 

[K3Tuning]

Catagorized as KERS or DRS for the Tomahawk I don't think really matters. It could honestly go either way but really makes no difference. The hp gets a good boost however they fantasized its implementation.


One thing at a time I guess, be nice for both DRS and Boost, I figure since its just one Novelty car though they have no plans for doing it all proper F1 style with zones and 2 buttons and adjustments in all that. Never know tho right, the SF19 cars came out of left field.

Im just glad we got the mapping ability for the boosting button back and that's its Implimentation for the SF19 cars is proper enough. I think more focus on SF19 is in the future vs any F1 type stuff, maybe we get some more F1 in the future and they give us a new button to map though. It be cool

 

[HopAlong]

The LMPs aren't allowed to have the hybrid on a button. I think we should have an option to choose settings, currently it all gets used after a lap or two and never recovers much. They could just give them better recovery rates.

Also the Toyota TS050 is 4WD like it should be, however the Audi and Nissan are MR and FF respectively. Both should be 4WD at least when the hybrid is active.

Does the DRS actually do anything on the Merc? I was doing the same speed down the Nurburgring GP front straight with and without DRS.

 

[K3Tuning]

I dont think we can call the Nismo LM car 4WD, sure it was the plan, but never came to be. Talk about doomed from the start, I remember thinking, lol these guys out of their tree. Turned out to be a piss pour FF LM car, getting smoked by LMP2 class lololololol

 

[Antibrian]

My observations:

The Mercedes-AMG F1 W08 EQ Power+ 2017 has unlimited uses, is automatically enabled and disabled when entering and leaving DRS zones while the button is held. Essentially just hold the button for free speed.

Dodge SRT Tomahawk has limited use of its KERS/DRS as indicated by the battery icon. Once it is depleted the flaps extend and the system cannot be activated until recharging under braking.

The Super Formula Dallara SF19 P2P has no fuel in time trial mode, and there's no way to enable it. While there is no passing in a time trial, I would prefer at the very least to start with a "full tank" of P2P fuel, but a configuration of this setting would be ideal.

Indicators in cockpit mode/VR are limited and inconsistent from what I have observed, as many dashboard/racing wheel displays don't show whether DRS is available or active or remaining KERS/P2P energy.

 

[splitwindow]

Does the DRS actually do anything on the Merc? I was doing the same speed down the Nurburgring GP front straight with and without DRS.

Might be a silly question, but have you tried adjusting the gears/top speed?

 

[Quakebass]

My observations:

Dodge SRT Tomahawk has limited use of its KERS/DRS as indicated by the battery icon. Once it is depleted the flaps extend and the system cannot be activated until recharging under braking.

That’s how it was in GT6. I guess keeping the flaps closed somehow consumes energy.

 

[LeGeNd-1]

The LMPs aren't allowed to have the hybrid on a button. I think we should have an option to choose settings, currently it all gets used after a lap or two and never recovers much. They could just give them better recovery rates.

Also the Toyota TS050 is 4WD like it should be, however the Audi and Nissan are MR and FF respectively. Both should be 4WD at least when the hybrid is active.

Does the DRS actually do anything on the Merc? I was doing the same speed down the Nurburgring GP front straight with and without DRS.

I don't follow WEC closely, but in Assetto Corsa the LMP-Hs allow you to override the pre-programmed hybrid deployment and give full beans when needed, so I always assume that's the case in real life too.

I've tested DRS on the Merc and P1 GTR at SSRX, they do have a slight top speed boost. Weirdly enough it makes more difference in low downforce setting than high With front & rear aero max I get ~5km/h improvement by opening DRS, but with aero min I get ~10km/h (gearing adjusted for both situations). Just shows how out of whack PD aero physics is.

The Super Formula Dallara SF19 P2P has no fuel in time trial mode, and there's no way to enable it. While there is no passing in a time trial, I would prefer at the very least to start with a "full tank" of P2P fuel, but a configuration of this setting would be ideal.

Didn't know this, and yes I agree ideally I'd like the P2P system available in time trials too. It's just increasing the fuel flow rate I think so it should be unlimited use. Maybe PD is trying to make it the same as real life though. Anyone who watches Super Formula knows if the P2P system is disabled in practice/qualifying?

 

[splitwindow]

Weirdly enough it makes more difference in low downforce setting than high With front & rear aero max I get ~5km/h improvement by opening DRS, but with aero min I get ~10km/h (gearing adjusted for both situations). Just shows how out of whack PD aero physics is.

With downforce set to min and less resistance the car should have higher straight line speed, or am I misunderstanding your post?

 

[Scaff]

I don't follow WEC closely, but in Assetto Corsa the LMP-Hs allow you to override the pre-programmed hybrid deployment and give full beans when needed, so I always assume that's the case in real life too.

I've tested DRS on the Merc and P1 GTR at SSRX, they do have a slight top speed boost. Weirdly enough it makes more difference in low downforce setting than high With front & rear aero max I get ~5km/h improvement by opening DRS, but with aero min I get ~10km/h (gearing adjusted for both situations). Just shows how out of whack PD aero physics is.



Didn't know this, and yes I agree ideally I'd like the P2P system available in time trials too. It's just increasing the fuel flow rate I think so it should be unlimited use. Maybe PD is trying to make it the same as real life though. Anyone who watches Super Formula knows if the P2P system is disabled in practice/qualifying?

The 919 for the WEC races certain had the option to manually deploy boost, the driver actually had both a button and a paddle to do so.

https://newsroom.porsche.com/en/mot...orts-919-hybrid-steering-wheel-wec-12515.html

 

[LeGeNd-1]

With downforce set to min and less resistance the car should have higher straight line speed, or am I misunderstanding your post?

No, the difference in speed when DRS is open/closed is higher with LOW downforce settings than HIGH. I expect it to be the other way round, because in HIGH downforce opening a flap in the rear wing will proportionally reduce drag more. At least, that's the intuitive thought. If you think of F1 opening DRS in Monaco will have higher impact than in Monza for example.

So for example with the W08 at SSRX I got the following speeds, even after adjusting gears to make sure the car sits at optimum rpm for top speed (note numbers not exact):

Min F&R aero
DRS closed - 350 kmh
DRS open - 360 kmh
Improvement of 10 kmh

Max F&R aero
DRS closed - 330 kmh
DRS open - 335 kmh
Improvement of 5 kmh

 

[Achika_Kuonji]

Do Super Formula cars need more fuel with P2P?

 

[nuu1212]

Do Super Formula cars need more fuel with P2P?

I have the feeling that the answer is NO. Hard to tell exactly, though.
Obviously you are going faster and reving higher, so you need more fuel,
but I don't think that more fuel per RPM is consumed, as it would be the case if we could turn to Level 0.

 

[devildog666]

The LMPs aren't allowed to have the hybrid on a button. I think we should have an option to choose settings, currently it all gets used after a lap or two and never recovers much. They could just give them better recovery rates.

Also the Toyota TS050 is 4WD like it should be, however the Audi and Nissan are MR and FF respectively. Both should be 4WD at least when the hybrid is active.

Does the DRS actually do anything on the Merc? I was doing the same speed down the Nurburgring GP front straight with and without DRS.

The Porsche 919 never runs out of power at Le Mans when I used it yesterday. It regenerates on the straights in top gear full throttle. The Audi R18 on the other hand runs out all the time.

 

[splitwindow]

No, the difference in speed when DRS is open/closed is higher with LOW downforce settings than HIGH.

I was so much hoping someone with really good word and science skill would step in for me here, but what the heck I'll give it a shot.
And I'm happy to be corrected

I'm going to use some completely arbitrary and simple round numbers here for the sake of making it easy.

Of all the wing that an F1 car has lets say that the DRS flappy wing accounts for 50% of total wing.

At minimum settings the wings push against the air hard enough to generate 1,000 kg of downforce. Pop the DRS wing (50%) and the total wings are only pushing against the air hard enough to produce 500 kg of downforce.

Now lets say at maximum setting the car is pushing against the air hard enough to generate 2,000 kg of downforce and when you hit DRS the 50% wing drops so you're only fighting the air hard enough to generate 1,000 kg of downforce.

For top end speed which car goes faster, the one pushing against the wind only hard enough to create 500 kg of downforce or the one forcing its way through twice as much wind resistance and generating 1,000 kg downforce?

I'm just a layman, but that's my simplistic reasoning of how it works.

 

[serlemke]

The LMPs aren't allowed to have the hybrid on a button. I think we should have an option to choose settings, currently it all gets used after a lap or two and never recovers much. They could just give them better recovery rates.

Also the Toyota TS050 is 4WD like it should be, however the Audi and Nissan are MR and FF respectively. Both should be 4WD at least when the hybrid is active.

Oh for the Nismo it can't be 4WD, that car has small tires in back, that Nismo is all about doing all from the front. I think they planned to add some recovery but it failed due weight. To make that Nismo a little competitive I think it should get a 5% power boost in the game (considering fron tire wear as a bigbig issue - but then you have power). I mean, that all if you are talking about the Gr.1 Nismo

 

[Scorpionx01]

The Porsche 919 never runs out of power at Le Mans when I used it yesterday. It regenerates on the straights in top gear full throttle. The Audi R18 on the other hand runs out all the time.

For the LMP1-H vehicles it has to be determined how much energy should be recovered per round (2, 4, 6 or 8 MJ class).

Quelle: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Le-Mans-Prototyp#Technisches_Reglement

The gradations for factory LMP1 in the overview

petrol (870 Kilogramm carweight, 66,9 Liter Fuel):
bis 2 MJ Hybrid: 93,0 kg petrol per hour
bis 4 MJ Hybrid: 90,5 kg petrol per hour
bis 6 MJ Hybrid: 87,9 kg petrol per hour
bis 8 MJ Hybrid: 87,3 kg petrol per hour

diesel (870 Kilogramm carweight, 54,8 Liter Fuel):
bis 2 MJ Hybrid: 83,3 kg diesel per hour
bis 4 MJ Hybrid: 81,0 kg diesel per hour
bis 6 MJ Hybrid: 78,3 kg diesel per hour
bis 8 MJ Hybrid: 76,2 kg diesel per hour

Quelle: https://www.motorsport-total.com/24...ahl-wie-viel-hybridpower-in-der-lmp1-14010603

 

[MIE1992]

Here were my ideas for the various systems mentioned ITT, other than the Super Formula boosts, which seem fine from what other people say:

1. DRS
If the course has a portion that allows the use of DRS, it could have similar markings to a penalty zone. After passing these markers, you can activate the respective car's DRS system simply by pressing the mapped button once, and a similar set of markers could indicate when the zone ends, and upon passing the second set of markers, DRS will be automatically put away. Alternatively, you could press the mapped button again to end DRS prematurely, if you want.

2. (K)ERS
I recall that your fuel gauge now also shows how much charge you have from ERS. This is a system that I think should also be deployed manually if the car permits drivers to do so in reality. While many cars with ERS also allow different levels of ERS, I wonder if it may be better for simplicity's sake to only have one level of ERS generation/consumption, which still accurately-reflects the respective vehicle's real-world rates of regeneration/use. However, I could also very much see this being something that could be mapped to the MFD, much like fuel mapping, so I'd be very welcome with that, too. I have heard, however, that thus far, there may be a bit more tweaking to be made to ERS in general, as far as realistic values go. (And as for the SRT VGT, maybe its flaps go down not as a part of a DRS system, but a ERS system that also activates a system analogous to DRS? Like there's more power, and the car tries to further reduce drag to compensate, as opposed to the car somehow needing energy to keep the panels down.)

3. Hybrid Systems
To begin, I wonder how much the series could borrow from the interface showing the hybrid system of the 2nd-gen Toyota Prius from GT4 Prologue? At any rate, I think this ought to work similarly to ERS, in that it's activated either automatically or manually depending on the car itself, and with the consideration that some hybrid systems these days also use regenerative braking. (Side note: I wonder if diesel hybrids could be integrated somehow, as seen in many famed Audi LMPs, or even all-hydrogen cars like the Mirai?)

4. Misc. Ideas & Notes
-I think that if a car has both DRS and an ERS, (e.g. the W08) both should be able to be used, given the buttons available on the controller. For example, you could replace the buttons that are typically used for each turn signal. (I get using hazards in a racing game, but turn signals seem more like a fun little thing that's not 100% essential to be constantly mapped to a controller, very much like being able to use your horn. Similarly, when dynamic weather and time-of-day returns to the series, the activation of windshield wipers, lights upon darker lighting, brights could be similarly automated if the player wishes.)
-Tangentially-related to DRS: perhaps if a given car allows the adjustment of its downforce as its driven, then it could be another MFD function like brake balance and TCS. I'd say the same of drivetrain power mapping, for AWD cars that can allow more power to be towards the front or rear wheels.
-I really want that UI for the Toyota MTRC back, which was only in GT4 Prologue. It even showed how the ride height would adjust when moving from tarmac to dirt, as well as the temperature & traction of each tire.

 

[HopAlong]

The 919 for the WEC races certain had the option to manually deploy boost, the driver actually had both a button and a paddle to do so.

https://newsroom.porsche.com/en/mot...orts-919-hybrid-steering-wheel-wec-12515.html

That is to used as an override, they cant control the whole system manually.

The Porsche 919 never runs out of power at Le Mans when I used it yesterday. It regenerates on the straights in top gear full throttle. The Audi R18 on the other hand runs out all the time.

The 919 has a recovery system on the brakes and the exhaust that works all the time, the Audi and Toyota just have the brakes.

 

[Scaff]

That is to used as an override, they cant control the whole system manually

They can also adjust the level of boost applied as well, as explained in the same article.

" The two remaining controllers halfway up the steering wheel define the amount of energy when boosting (B – golden and on the left) and offer the strategy choice for the combustion engine (S – blue and on the right)."
It's not the degree of control that an F1 hybrid system gives, but its far more than GTS models.

 

[HopAlong]

Oh for the Nismo it can't be 4WD, that car has small tires in back, that Nismo is all about doing all from the front. I think they planned to add some recovery but it failed due weight. To make that Nismo a little competitive I think it should get a 5% power boost in the game (considering fron tire wear as a bigbig issue - but then you have power). I mean, that all if you are talking about the Gr.1 Nismo

This Nissan in game is modelled with the hybrid, it was only since the update I realised. So it should be 4WD or they should remove the hybrid.

The thing with the Nissan was that I could have been a very quick car, the problem was it was rushed out and should have been raced in 2016. But because it didn't win first time, just like the BTCC programme the same year, they pulled out (BTCC after 2 rounds!). Even if they had turned up with a regular car they still would have been miles off the pace, it was some chassis issues, lack of hybrid and the poor front weight distribution that cost them.

 

[HopAlong]

They can also adjust the level of boost applied as well, as explained in the same article.

" The two remaining controllers halfway up the steering wheel define the amount of energy when boosting (B – golden and on the left) and offer the strategy choice for the combustion engine (S – blue and on the right)."
It's not the degree of control that an F1 hybrid system gives, but its far more than GTS models.

Yeah you basically can manage how much you want but it cant be used like the old F1 KERS.

Wasn't it Project Cars 2 that said the systems where too complicated so they just gave us a button?

 

[Scaff]

Yeah you basically can manage how much you want but it cant be used like the old F1 KERS.

Wasn't it Project Cars 2 that said the systems where too complicated so they just gave us a button?

I don't recall that being said for PC2, but I do know that AC is pretty much they only title to model full hybrid access and control.

 

[LeGeNd-1]

I was so much hoping someone with really good word and science skill would step in for me here, but what the heck I'll give it a shot.
And I'm happy to be corrected

I'm going to use some completely arbitrary and simple round numbers here for the sake of making it easy.

Of all the wing that an F1 car has lets say that the DRS flappy wing accounts for 50% of total wing.

At minimum settings the wings push against the air hard enough to generate 1,000 kg of downforce. Pop the DRS wing (50%) and the total wings are only pushing against the air hard enough to produce 500 kg of downforce.

Now lets say at maximum setting the car is pushing against the air hard enough to generate 2,000 kg of downforce and when you hit DRS the 50% wing drops so you're only fighting the air hard enough to generate 1,000 kg of downforce.

For top end speed which car goes faster, the one pushing against the wind only hard enough to create 500 kg of downforce or the one forcing its way through twice as much wind resistance and generating 1,000 kg downforce?

I'm just a layman, but that's my simplistic reasoning of how it works.

I'm not disputing that the low downforce will have higher top speed. It's the difference in speed between DRS open/closed that I'm disputing. Read the numbers in my post again.

By your logic, low downforce loses 500kg when opening DRS, whereas high downforce loses 1000kg with DRS open. So by that reasoning, high downforce will gain more relative speed with DRS open (but absolute top speed is still gonna be slower than low downforce because the absolute downforce is still higher, LDF 500kg vs HDF 1000kg). But in GT Sport, this seems to be reversed because the low downforce gains more relative speed with DRS open.

I hope that makes sense. Wikipedia also seems to agree:

The effectiveness of DRS seems likely to be determined by the level of downforce at a given circuit (where the cars are in low drag trim at circuits like Monza, the effects may be smaller), by the length of the activation zone, and by the characteristics of the track immediately after the DRS zone.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drag_reduction_system

Note that I'm not an aerodynamicist either, but logically thinking that's what feels right. Maybe @Famine can chip in

 

[MIE1992]

Note that I'm not an aerodynamicist either, but logically thinking that's what feels right. Maybe @Famine can chip in

I’d like to see what he thinks of the thoughts & ideas I posted a little earlier ITT, too. For that post, I’d also appreciate feedback from @Alpha Cipher and @Sven Jurgens.

 

[Sven Jurgens]

I don't really like any of it I like my racing simple, the boost button just complicates things and is used as much to block overtakes as for what it's intended for. I don't enjoy the silly acceleration of the hybrids as the R92CP is much more fun to drive!

All these settings, changing TCS on the fly, fuel map, brake balance, now overtake, next kers and drs, it's getting further and further from a level playing field. Or rather further from a safe playing field where everyone is using radar and not distracted with all the extra settings and functions. Has racing become so stale we need to turn it into a flight sim

I'm old flipping though settings at 200kph is no good for me. Heck I forget to press gas when using boost, it's all too complicated for me

 

[Hoopzah]

The Bugatti VGT also has kinetic recovery (KERS) however, it is not mentioned in the patch notes.

 

[GOTMAXPOWER]

This Nissan in game is modelled with the hybrid, it was only since the update I realised. So it should be 4WD or they should remove the hybrid.

The thing with the Nissan was that I could have been a very quick car, the problem was it was rushed out and should have been raced in 2016. But because it didn't win first time, just like the BTCC programme the same year, they pulled out (BTCC after 2 rounds!). Even if they had turned up with a regular car they still would have been miles off the pace, it was some chassis issues, lack of hybrid and the poor front weight distribution that cost them.

Nissan went through a spell of being different for the sake of being different, I don't think front wheel drive was ever going to work as well as rear wheel drive, the car would wheel spin out of the slow corners every lap at Le Mans and that should of been its best track. Even if the car was finished I think it would've been a flop built more for PR than laptimes.

The less said about that BTCC project the better, they (Infiniti) contributed the base cars and €1 million to a charity team who had never raced in BTCC, 2 drivers who had never raced in the championship (neither of whom were the man Infiniti wanted driving). Even with that money and their own sponsors the money ran out immediately.

Their were reports of team members being abusive to fans on social media and they fired a driver without telling him. I think Alan Gow was happy to see the back of them.

 

[Hoopzah]

The Nissan was just an awful idea. Total waste of time and $ and a fairly competitive team was destroyed because of it... Didn't help the Nissan Academy either, and where's that now?

Whoever sold them the idea of a FF LMP car was a douche. (They should have put the engine in the BACK if they just wanted to drive the front.) Anything above 330-350lb/ft and it's just screeeeeeeech. That can't be avoided, physics doesn't allow it. TCS constantly engaged just means slower corners. It boggles my mind nobody thought about those 2 things.

Nissan could have hired me to tell them "don't" and we'd all be happy.

 

[Antibrian]

I don't really like any of it I like my racing simple, the boost button just complicates things and is used as much to block overtakes as for what it's intended for. I don't enjoy the silly acceleration of the hybrids as the R92CP is much more fun to drive!

All these settings, changing TCS on the fly, fuel map, brake balance, now overtake, next kers and drs, it's getting further and further from a level playing field. Or rather further from a safe playing field where everyone is using radar and not distracted with all the extra settings and functions. Has racing become so stale we need to turn it into a flight sim

I'm old flipping though settings at 200kph is no good for me. Heck I forget to press gas when using boost, it's all too complicated for me

Is driving today too complicated with 20 and more buttons on the wheel, are you too much under effort, under pressure? What are your wishes for the future, concerning the technical program, errrm, during the race? Less buttons, more?