Knowing When To Shift

  • Thread starter Stasibomb
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I though I'd throw in my 0.02, this is admittedly similar to what others have advised above.

You want to make the best average power throughout the rev range used in a gear. The rev range used depends on when you arrive in that gear from the previous upshift, and when you shift out of the gear. This obviously depends on the gear ratios in your box, and when you choose to shift. You need to know the "departure rpm" when you shift, and the "arrival rpm" which you get when arriving in the next gear.

Highest average power means, when looking at the dyno graph:
i) you want to stay close to the power peak.
ii) you don't want a drop, or increase in power, when you shift.

You can draw lines across the dyno curve to illustrate this, between departure and arrival rpms (see my pics). You want a flat line whenever possible! Literally, as a quick and dirty method, you can go up to your TV with a ruler or biro, hold it straight and judge the revs by eye.

If your power is higher after you shift into the new gear then you should have shifted a bit earlier. If your power has dropped after shifting then you were better off holding on to the previous gear. This is sometimes unavoidable because you hit redline and must shift.

if you are using an adjustable box you can tweak the relationships between the ratios and/or choose shift points. The red and blue lines below show different ways of choosing ratios. Remember they are close to the power peak (they straddle it), and they are horizontal i.e. flat.

Shift points.jpg
Note the "gearing factor" which is the ratio of the individual gear ratios, and also the rpm ratios. I don't know if there is a more professional term for this, but I just call it gearing factor. By adjusting Final Drive you can retain the gearing factor and individual ratios, you just make the whole box shorter or longer.


If you are using a fixed gearbox then you have to make do with the ratios provided, the only thing you can choose is shift points.
Shift points fixed box.jpg

Reasons to deviate from the way I have suggested you set up an adjustable box are:
i) GT won't let you choose the ratios you want.
ii) The ratios mean you are shifting part way through some corners, and this upsets the car balance. You can change final drive to compensate, but on long tracks with many corners you will probably have a few corners that aren't optimised, no matter how you set the gears.
iii) In enduro races, if you want to short shift to save fuel.

When tuning, a gearbox which is set well for a track can knock seconds off the lap time. Its usually a bigger effect than suspension etc tuning.
 
The highest power is what gives the greatest acceleration. Torque at the engine and torque at the wheels are not the same thing, because the gear ratio changes the relationship. So shifting gear to go from lower engine torque to higher engine torque doesn't necessarily increase torque at the wheels. It's best to just look at power, as more power must equal more acceleration (because the rate of input of kinetic energy into the car must be determined by power).

It's perhaps easier to understand if you think about cycling. You don't accelerate fast by using the longest gear and pressing with enormous force on the pedals. That gives you huge torque at the pedals, but pathetic torque at the wheels. You accelerate fastest by using a gear and cadence that allows you to output the most power. In a sprint finish in an elite cycling race, a sprinter might output around 1400W, and they'll be using a high cadence, say 120+ rpm. Their torque on the pedals is relatively low, pretty much any human can apply the torque they are using. What most humans can't do is combine that torque with the speed of movement to deliver that power.
Refreshing to read something from someone who understands things.
 
It also varies wildly on what you're trying to achieve at the moment.

I shift at a way different point if I'm trying to conserve fuel to do a no-stop race vs one without fuel/tire wear.
 
Love that the game still only gives you a proper tach in bumper view and nowhere else and the cockpit gauges aren't updated once you install engine upgrades, so good luck eyeballing the right RPM.

For all the useless info they crammed into the HUD, you'd think they'd have room for a tach.
Well this sucks, wasn't aware of this.
 
One thing to note is that if you reduce the power using the power restrictor, not the ECU, is that you'll change the power/torque curve and change your shifting points.

It's a shame we don't have the old machine test stuff from GT5 where you could do a standing km run to see how the car accelerates with different shifting points. Being able to directly compare your times and ghosts was really useful.
 
i think i have the simple answer for you.. most cars ive noticed the on screen red bar rpm represents the power band, where that maxs out seems to in line with most cars peak hp range
 
peak torque and power are not the same, power is the product of torque and rpm. Many cars make peak torque really early in their power curve and dont make much power at peak torque.
This is correct. I think you meant to say peak HP at the end? My personal car has more torque than HP (it's SC). Deisel trucks are a good extreme example of this too. Why they are good towers.

There is only one way to find either engine speed at peak power, max horsepower or max torque. Only one of the two power numbers is actually measured, that is torque. Horsepower is a calculation based on torque to show where (what RPM) an engine develops peak power, like Funky said. Since GT gives you two variables, the equation to determine around what rpms you (should) need to shift (max power) is,

RPM = (HP * 5252) / TQ

You can also rearrange this formula to get HP at any given RPM once you know once you know what RPM is max HP. The 5252 number is constant. Its derived from way back when they tried to determine how much power 30,000 horses could produce, or something like that. I forget the history. Mr. Google probably knows.

An easy quick method to get in the right ballpark is to just look to see if HP is higher than TQ (peak). If it is, shift somewhere after 5252 RPMS, opposite if TQ is higher. I doubt many, if any, are set up this way. The Gr3 Vette may be, but if I remember correctly, the Gr3 GR Supra has higher HP and both of those need to be short shifted regardless of race parameters.

This is how it works with real cars. I have tried this on GT7 and unfortunately, it's just not consistent across cars, but it is a little closer when BoP is not part of the equation. I'm sure it does have something to do with how that meter bar and the max power graph in settings relate to each other. The meter can't be max power because then why would you ever short it? It doesn't always flash where the graph says max power/rpms cross, but sometimes it does. I don't know.

The only way I have tried that does seem to work is a little cumbersome. You have to create a custom race with the car you want to use as one of you're opponents, set to professional and also to whatever race settings for the daily race, etc. you are testing for ultimately. Do a race and watch the replay of the AI driving that car, they seem to shift at the right spot for the car and circumstances from the few I've tested. Again, it sucks. But I can't figure out any logical way to do it that seems realistic to me. If anyone does, I'd love to be educated.

Sorry, didn't intend to rant. I really tried to figure it out.
 
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Since GT gives you two variables, the equation to determine around what rpms you (should) need to shift (max power) is,

RPM = (HP * 5252) / TQ

You can also rearrange this formula to get HP at any given RPM once you know once you know what RPM is max HP.
None of this is correct. You cannot use peak power and peak torque in your equation unless they are at the same rpm. But if you know they're at the same rpm, you already know the rpm and don't need to calculate it. You can't derive power at other rpms using that equation because torque isn't constant across all rpms.

Your equation is just power = torque * angular velocity, with a constant to sort out the units. It only works for specific units of measurement for power and torque. You can't use peak power and peak torque in it, it only relates power and torque at the same angular velocity (rpm with a modifying constant).
 
with cars that I love to drive...upshift is better...turbo kicks in and speed comes faster...
with high rev shifts..for me..speed usually Drops a little 2-4 kmh
 
Does anyone know when GT-En!ne will have it's dyno graphs updated for GT7? I've been looking at their GTS ones, but I'm not sure how consistent they are with the current game.
 
I've noticed a few aliens shortshifting in various cars whereas I always try to redline them. Where are they getting this knowledge? Trial and error?

Is GT-engine collecting data for GT7 for the optimal upshift rpm? I can't find a graph for GT cars like there was for gtsport. Or is the gtsport data still a good guideline for GT7?
 
I've noticed a few aliens shortshifting in various cars whereas I always try to redline them. Where are they getting this knowledge? Trial and error?

Is GT-engine collecting data for GT7 for the optimal upshift rpm? I can't find a graph for GT cars like there was for gtsport. Or is the gtsport data still a good guideline for GT7?
I believe shortshifting is mainly used to reduce fuel consumption, not to increase acceleration. Most of the time you sacrifice a little acceleration for better fuel consumption.
 
I've noticed a few aliens shortshifting in various cars whereas I always try to redline them. Where are they getting this knowledge? Trial and error?

Is GT-engine collecting data for GT7 for the optimal upshift rpm? I can't find a graph for GT cars like there was for gtsport. Or is the gtsport data still a good guideline for GT7?
You can see the engine power curves of each car by going to Car Settings and clicking ECU.
I believe shortshifting is mainly used to reduce fuel consumption, not to increase acceleration. Most of the time you sacrifice a little acceleration for better fuel consumption.
Some cars accelerate better by short shifting. The Radical is one example. Shifting at ~6000 rpm (redline at 7000) gives the optimal performance. The Veyron Gr.4 is another great example.
 
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100% agree with the fuel econ and suiting the power curves reasons given above.

Also, some of the aliens short shift extremely soon in low gear corners. The reason is (I think) they time it so they can dump the throttle 100% and be just on the verge of wheelspin in 3rd gear, rather than staying in 2nd and having to feed the throttle in perfectly.

You can calculate the optimal shift points from the power curves, the chap making the GT7 tuning app has allowed scanning of dyno curves into excel. Failing that it's a ruler against the TV job which is doable but is a bit laborious.
 
100% agree with the fuel econ and suiting the power curves reasons given above.

Also, some of the aliens short shift extremely soon in low gear corners. The reason is (I think) they time it so they can dump the throttle 100% and be just on the verge of wheelspin in 3rd gear, rather than staying in 2nd and having to feed the throttle in perfectly.

You can calculate the optimal shift points from the power curves, the chap making the GT7 tuning app has allowed scanning of dyno curves into excel. Failing that it's a ruler against the TV job which is doable but is a bit laborious.
Sometimes that is because of the car/gearbox, sometimes it’s to do with boost, and sometimes it’s just to skip a shift after hitting full throttle.

The Radical is a really good example, that car needs to be driven really weird, to be fast. You have to shift it at half bar, instead of revving it right out. Then you have to over downshift under braking, and early upshift on exits. So on a normally 2nd gear corner/hairpin, you brake and gear down to first, turn in, double upshift to 3rd, then exit in 3rd and lug the gear, because it’s faster than just taking the corner normally.
 
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I'm surprised people have not mentioned more about traction when talking about shift points...

It is likely that most significant upshifts will happen upon corner exits, thus there will be some steering lock. Which means you may have to be progressive with your throttle in order to limit wheel spin. If you're running with fixed settings, then the traction out of turns is largely determined by gears and less by the powerband. Thus shift points can vary from corner to corner in the same car. Some drivers like to -- and can -- hold a lower gear and be very precise with throttle input in the high RPMs as they exit. Some opt for a taller gear and mashing the throttle, especially under severe tire degradation.

Think about the exit of 1st chicane at Monza. 1st gear or 2nd? The math may say 1st gear, but getting traction in 2nd may be the better option. Then there is also the downshifting.
 
I'm surprised people have not mentioned more about traction when talking about shift points...

It is likely that most significant upshifts will happen upon corner exits, thus there will be some steering lock. Which means you may have to be progressive with your throttle in order to limit wheel spin. If you're running with fixed settings, then the traction out of turns is largely determined by gears and less by the powerband. Thus shift points can vary from corner to corner in the same car. Some drivers like to -- and can -- hold a lower gear and be very precise with throttle input in the high RPMs as they exit. Some opt for a taller gear and mashing the throttle, especially under severe tire degradation.

Think about the exit of 1st chicane at Monza. 1st gear or 2nd? The math may say 1st gear, but getting traction in 2nd may be the better option. Then there is also the downshifting.
In a lot of cars, it’s a 3rd gear exit even, depending on the torque and gearing of the car.
 
Speaking of changing gears, what's the deal with changing gears 'for more rotation'? Fast drivers talk about it all the time in lap guides. I can see how putting the power down in a lower gear could spin up the rears for oversteer, but they seem to do it when coasting through corners as well. Is this just a GT thing or is there any real life reason why coasting through a corner in a different gear might affect a car's handling?
 
Should I be shifting right around 7200?

Peak power: 537hp@7200rpm
Peak torque: 430.5ft-lb@5100rpm
View attachment 1255715
What's your gear ratios mate? The shift points depend on them, but it'll definitely be after 7200 and maybe up to redline depending on the exact ratios.

@rabidmonkey: it could be engine braking as well. A lower gear will multiply the torque coming from the engine whether it's acceleration torque or off-gas engine braking torque. So you'll get wheelspin and rotation under accel, but also a weight shift jolt forward and possibly mild rear wheel lock when off gas. Particularly if you downshift and the lower gear is now at high rpm.
 
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Should I be shifting right around 7200?

Peak power: 537hp@7200rpm
Peak torque: 430.5ft-lb@5100rpm
View attachment 1255715
Yes.
What's your gear ratios mate? The shift points depend on them, but it'll definitely be after 7200 and maybe up to redline depending on the exact ratios.
The shift points definitely depend on the gear ratios but looking at the power curve here it's quite clear you don't want to rev too much because you lose so much both torque and HP after 7200 rpm. Optimally you want to shift as close to peak hp as possible to land as close to peak torque as possible in the next gear. Which in this case is around 7200 rpm.
 
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Has anyone notice the bar in the center of the HUD where the gear indicator is and your speed in bumper view turns pink when you get near peak hp or that the white curved around the tach usually turns from white to red when nearing the hp?
 
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When racing I use acceleration to know when to shift. If your mph slows and you still have a few thousand rpm left to rev, it’s time to shift.

I was never aware of it until I drove the Aston dp-100.
 
When racing I use acceleration to know when to shift. If your mph slows and you still have a few thousand rpm left to rev, it’s time to shift.

I was never aware of it until I drove the Aston dp-100.
That seems like a you would have to pay a lot of attention while doing to notice if it slow. You're a better man than I am
 
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