Kosovo to form new military and join NATO?

[BobK]

Tanks have almost no use in a modern warfare, really. Infantry usually carries a lot of anti-tank weaponry (like AT missiles or rocket launchers) these days. Tank crews don't always see enemy soldiers hiding, but even modern MBTs are pretty vulnerable against infantry. Especially in an urban combat, which is common for the most of modern local war conflicts.

Clearly you're not familiar with the concept of "combined arms". Consider this:
Infantry have almost no use in modern warfare, really. Artillery is by design an anti-infantry weapon. Infantry can't see where the artillery is hiding, even modern infantrymen wearing Kevlar vests are pretty vulnerable against artillery. Especially in an open area, of which there are far more than urban areas.

Similarly I could explain how armor has obsoleted artillery. The fact is that none of them are obsolete, they just have to be used in combination.

 

[MisterWhiskers]

I think tanks are necessary. Kosovo has dirt and rocky roads, unless you are in the north. Plus, we are going to join NATO right after the military forms (according to NATO) and do peacekeeping missions in rural areas.

 

[sumbrownkid]

Having tanks is one thing, effectively utilizing them is another. Hopefully those boys will figure it out.

 

[Inferno251]

I can't understand why Serbia thinks Kosovo is theirs. I know it has particular importance to Serbia because of the 1389 battle of Kosovo, but is that the main reason?

 

[Rage Racer]

Clearly you're not familiar with the concept of "combined arms".

I know what you're talking about - the infantry should sweep buildings and other places where enemy soldiers can hide, and the tank proceeds and covers with fire. Of course, success in a modern operation depends on interaction between all forces - including the air force as well.

What I said about tanks is not my own opinion. I've read it in some article. But it has some truth in it... An enemy RPG can take down a tank before the infantry be able to do anything. Especially if the army is not skilled very good.

For example, during the war in South Ossetia, 2008, Georgian army (which was formed under NATO standards by the way, like the Kosovo military seems to be formed) attacked the Russian peacekeepers base in Tskhinvali with tanks and infantry. The peacekeepers didn't have any tanks or other heavy weapons, but they destroyed a number of Georgian tanks (however, Georgians were badly beating in numbers, so the JPKF forces had to fall back and leave the base later).

 

[BobK]

I know what you're talking about - the infantry should sweep buildings and other places where enemy soldiers can hide, and the tank proceeds and covers with fire. Of course, success in a modern operation depends on interaction between all forces - including the air force as well.

Exactly.

What I said about tanks is not my own opinion. I've read it in some article. But it has some truth in it...

It doesn't matter whose opinion it is or where it was published, it's still wrong.

An enemy RPG can take down a tank before the infantry be able to do anything. Especially if the army is not skilled very good.

Just because something is used incompetently doesn't make it obsolete. An essential tool in the hands of a skilled craftsman could be useless to someone who doesn't know how to use it.

For example, during the war in South Ossetia, 2008, Georgian army (which was formed under NATO standards by the way, like the Kosovo military seems to be formed) attacked the Russian peacekeepers base in Tskhinvali with tanks and infantry. The peacekeepers didn't have any tanks or other heavy weapons, but they destroyed a number of Georgian tanks (however, Georgians were badly beating in numbers, so the JPKF forces had to fall back and leave the base later).

I'm not familiar with the battle in question, but it seems to me it only illustrates that you're going to take losses attacking a well-defended objective. If anything, it may illustrate that the attacking force just didn't know how to use its armor.

 

[mr_geez]

Kosovo is a long way from joining NATO or EU. Like decades away.

Let's also not forget about all the things that KLA did to Serbs and other ethnicities during the conflict (organ theft, concentration camps, massacres, child soldiers, ethnic cleansing, destruction of churches). Original post is very misleading in giving "details" about that awful conflict.

EDIT: The talk about growing economy of Kosovo is also quite interesting considering that unemployment rate is around 45% and population below poverty line is around 40%.

 

[MisterWhiskers]

I can't understand why Serbia thinks Kosovo is theirs. I know it has particular importance to Serbia because of the 1389 battle of Kosovo, but is that the main reason?

It really is an issue. In fact, Kosovo had been a sovereign entity once called Dardania, immigrants from Illyria/Albania, but the Serbs refuse to believe that. There are Serbs that support independence, fortunately.

Kosovo is a long way from joining NATO or EU. Like decades away.

Let's also not forget about all the things that KLA did to Serbs and other ethnicities during the conflict (organ theft, concentration camps, massacres, child soldiers, ethnic cleansing, destruction of churches). Original post is very misleading in giving "details" about that awful conflict.

EDIT: The talk about growing economy of Kosovo is also quite interesting considering that unemployment rate is around 45% and population below poverty line is around 40%.

Get ready. This is gonna be a long hess reply...

Actually, Kosovo is very close to becoming part of NATO. Didn't you read the article? It stated that Kosovo would immediately join NATO after the KSF becomes in army (In a 5 day span from when I posted this reply). If Serbia does recognize us (they have to to join the EU), we will join the EU, and that will be at the very latest until January 2014. Organ theft did not occur until 2008, only about 1,000 were killed compared to ~8,000 Albanians (Kosovo liberated, not terrorized.), even America had child soldiers during the WWs, which signed to serve for what was right, Albanians being told to go back to Albania and 800,000 escaping to the US, UK, Germany, France, Switzerland, Albania, etc., and mosques and homes wee burned. You give me the same BS every Serb does when arguing with them. It actually is true. Kosovo has the third best, not first best, growing GDP, which is 4.1.

Lets not forget, your Slavic brother Serbia does not always tell you the truth. If you had a time machine to go back to war times around late 98' and live there as an Albanian, and then come back to Kosovo today and live there again, you would understand where I'm coming from.

 

[mr_geez]

Get ready. This is gonna be a long hess reply...

Actually, Kosovo is very close to becoming part of NATO. Didn't you read the article? It stated that Kosovo would immediately join NATO after the KSF becomes in army (In a 5 day span from when I posted this reply). If Serbia does recognize us (they have to to join the EU), we will join the EU, and that will be at the very latest until January 2014. Organ theft did not occur until 2008, only about 1,000 were killed compared to ~8,000 Albanians (Kosovo liberated, not terrorized.), even America had child soldiers during the WWs, which signed to serve for what was right, Albanians being told to go back to Albania and 800,000 escaping to the US, UK, Germany, France, Switzerland, Albania, etc., and mosques and homes wee burned. You give me the same BS every Serb does when arguing with them. It actually is true. Kosovo has the third best, not first best, growing GDP, which is 4.1.

Lets not forget, your Slavic brother Serbia does not always tell you the truth. If you had a time machine to go back to war times around late 98' and live there as an Albanian, and then come back to Kosovo today and live there again, you would understand where I'm coming from.

1. Just because I'm Polish it doesn't mean I consider Serbs as my brothers and it also doesn't mean that it makes me anti-Albanian or anti-Independent Kosovo (in fact Poland was one of the first countries to recognize Kosovo as independent state). I just happened to stumble upon this thread and read the original post which only contains info about one side of the sad story of Kosovo conflict.

2. Organ theft. I happened to read an interview with Carla del Ponte about her book (The Hunt: Me and the War Criminals) some time ago and I remember that she stated that there were around 2000 acknowledged "disappearance cases" between 1998 and 2008 connected to organ theft. You can't really say that she is biased against Albanian people considering she was a former chief prosecutor for the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia.

3. Joining EU. Well it'll be hard for Kosovo to join EU not because of Serbia or even other EU countries that do not recognize Kosovo as independent state (like Spain, Slovakia, Cyprus or Greece), but because Kosovo economic/infrastructure/criminal/political situation is so far away from standards that must be met by countries who want to join EU. So thinking about it in "soon" category is a pipe dream.

4. Genocide. I'm not saying that what the Serbs did was in any shape or form good or even justifiable but you can't close your eyes on what Albanians did either. Throwing numbers still doesn't change the fact that we're talking about mass murder and I think it is reasonable to think that there were more casualties from both sides than what was registered in statistics. Both sides suffered. A lot.

5. Economy. For 2008 the European Commission reported a GDP growth of 5.4% – essentially due to public investment (194% growth, compared to a 10.2% decline in private investment) – but the report also noted that the unsatisfactory state of the statistical system does not allow for a comprehensive assessment of the situation. You know from where Kosovo gets the money? Mainly from international help and unfortunately it will end soon. If the private sector doesn't wake up (which won't be easy with high levels of bureaucracy and corruption) it can get very ugly.

 

[MisterWhiskers]

1. Just because I'm Polish it doesn't mean I consider Serbs as my brothers and it also doesn't mean that it makes me anti-Albanian or anti-Independent Kosovo (in fact Poland was one of the first countries to recognize Kosovo as independent state). I just happened to stumble upon this thread and read the original post which only contains info about one side of the sad story of Kosovo conflict.

2. Organ theft. I happened to read an interview with Carla del Ponte about her book (The Hunt: Me and the War Criminals) some time ago and I remember that she stated that there were around 2000 acknowledged "disappearance cases" between 1998 and 2008 connected to organ theft. You can't really say that she is biased against Albanian people considering she was a former chief prosecutor for the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia.

3. Joining EU. Well it'll be hard for Kosovo to join EU not because of Serbia or even other EU countries that do not recognize Kosovo as independent state (like Spain, Slovakia, Cyprus or Greece), but because Kosovo economic/infrastructure/criminal/political situation is so far away from standards that must be met by countries who want to join EU. So thinking about it in "soon" category is a pipe dream.

4. Genocide. I'm not saying that what the Serbs did was in any shape or form good or even justifiable but you can't close your eyes on what Albanians did either. Throwing numbers still doesn't change the fact that we're talking about mass murder and I think it is reasonable to think that there were more casualties from both sides that were registered in statistics. Both sides suffered. A lot.

5. Economy. For 2008 the European Commission reported a GDP growth of 5.4% – essentially due to public investment (194% growth, compared to a 10.2% decline in private investment) – but the report also noted that the unsatisfactory state of the statistical system does not allow for a comprehensive assessment of the situation. You know from where Kosovo gets the money? Mainly from international help and unfortunately it will end soon. If the private sector doesn't wake up (which won't be easy with high levels of bureaucracy and corruption) it can get very ugly.

Really? According to lots of Polish YouTube users, all Polish people are brothers with Serbs. It would be payback to what Serbs have done, not only to Albanians, but the Balkans. I stated in the OP that we did bad things, too. I'm trying to keep it non-biased. I also put 2 sentences about burning churches and how Kosovo was/is important to the Serbs.

 

[Blitz24]

Really? According to lots of Polish YouTube users, all Polish people are brothers with Serbs. It would be payback to what Serbs have done, not only to Albanians, but the Balkans. I stated in the OP that we did bad things, too. I'm trying to keep it non-biased. I also put 2 sentences about burning churches and how Kosovo was/is important to the Serbs.

Using YouTube as a polling place for opinion is already going to give you a biased response.

 

[MisterWhiskers]

Using YouTube as a polling place for opinion is already going to give you a biased response.

Is everything the gov does approved positively by the citizens? Exactly. A lot of people who's gov supports my country's independence are opposed and vice versa with gov who oppose.

 

[Keef]

You're getting a bit too libertarian sometimes...

There is a dramatic difference between a nation switching to a full war time economy compared to a nation arming itself in a more passive manner.

I'm not addressing the issue of whether a military is good or bad. I'm addressing the idea that military spending helps the economy, which it never does. No matter how miniscule the effort, or how important it is, it always transforms useful public resources into an unproductive form. If military spending every actually helped an economy then perpetual war would be the most desirable situation to be in.

 

[Crash]

Is everything the gov does approved positively by the citizens? Exactly. A lot of people who's gov supports my country's independence are opposed and vice versa with gov who oppose.

Just as much as I'm sure there are plenty of people whose government supports Kosovo's independence are in agreement with their government and also support Kosovo's independence.

How many Polish videos opposed to Kosovo independence did you find on YouTube? 10? 50? 100? That's hardly representative of the views of an entire nation's populace.

You should perhaps consider doing a point-by-point rebuttal, backed by evidence, of what you disagree with mr_geez about rather than pulling out an irrelevant point in an attempt to accuse, attack and discredit him.

I'm not addressing the issue of whether a military is good or bad. I'm addressing the idea that military spending helps the economy, which it never does. No matter how miniscule the effort, or how important it is, it always transforms useful public resources into an unproductive form. If military spending every actually helped an economy then perpetual war would be the most desirable situation to be in.

Actual serious question that I'm interested in hearing your thoughts on: what about military spending that ends up creating new technology that eventually trickles down and transferred to civilian use? At what point would the unproductive/wasted utility be out weighed by the positive utility generated by this new technology?

 

[BobK]

Organ theft did not occur until 2008, only about 1,000 were killed.

Oh, so you're saying that since it's only 1000 people, it's all right then.

Didn't you read the article?

That's pretty hypocritical, considering your posts here.

Seriously, dude, you'd be better off going back to counting to potato.

 

[MisterWhiskers]

Oh, so you're saying that since it's only 1000 people, it's all right then.



That's pretty hypocritical, considering your posts here.

Seriously, dude, you'd be better off going back to counting to potato.

I never said it was OK. Matter fact, I think any death, other than justice, is horrible. Don't bring that up! I didn't read the article. And take a joke. You might need a laugh. Oh, and remember, 10,000 people died on the Albanian side. I'm not being biased or anything....

 

[Keef]

Ten years after this thread was posted we may be on the brink of war in Kosovo again.

 

[Joey D]

Ten years after this thread was posted we may be on the brink of war in Kosovo again.

So what are the chances Russia has its hand in this to try and fight a proxy war with NATO?

 

[Liquid]

So what are the chances Russia has its hand in this to try and fight a proxy war with NATO?

Serbia's government is extremely pro-Russian.