Lain
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Only problem is that Microsoft wants T10 to keep pumping out Forza games for the Xbox.
KY and his new friend
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Only problem is that Microsoft wants T10 to keep pumping out Forza games for the Xbox.
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- VIPERGTS01
Maybe Turn 10 want to keep their jobs, unlike MS's PC studios.....
Yes MS flight sim internal dev team (Aces) was all fired for making a popular, profitable sim, but it's only fault was it wasn't for Xbox.
If I were T10, maybe I would move to SONY for more legroom. Or create our own Independent company for PC market or SONY.
PC market needs GT/FM style car sims.. I hate GTR2 with only race cars, I hate iRacing for it's price and lack of cars! If T10 go independent and start making PC sims like FM/GT series, They would be #1 for PC.
Same thing and MW2, no dedicated servers for PC, its not what MW2 team did, is what Micro$oft pay them to do... It's all big cover up.
PC market needs GT/FM style car sims.. I hate GTR2 with only race cars, I hate iRacing for it's price and lack of cars! If T10 go independent and start making PC sims like FM/GT series, They would be #1 for PC.
Same thing and MW2, no dedicated servers for PC, its not what MW2 team did, is what Micro$oft pay them to do... It's all big cover up.
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- Nigel Fox
Edit: I see you moderated your opinion in the Forza 3 thread, so never mind.
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Joey D
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I'm just curious, but has anyone ever thought these two guy actually do like one another? Yes they trash talk (in their own ways) each others games, but then again they are competing against one another so that is to be expected. Even in my fantasy leagues I trash talk my buddies to no end but that doesn't mean I hate them.
For the discussion on how much time MS gave T10, you guys have to remember that it happens to pretty every game. Even MW has a deadline of 2 years. There are very few exceptions to that rule, and those exceptions are games like GT, FF and GTA. But in order to get that kind of luxury, you must have a trully legendary series in your hands.
And what would happen if T10 left MS? Well, I can't help but think of TOCA, which was an amazing game, but had no chance of competing against other racing sims. The problem is that sims are kind of a niche market, so you need the power of a strong publisher to back you up, and the support you get for being a first party studio is essential.
That being said, I think it's pretty amazing what T10 was able to accomplish out of the 360. Having that many cars available with a DVD is an example of how they've maxed the console. Too bad for them PD has a much more capable console to explore.
And what would happen if T10 left MS? Well, I can't help but think of TOCA, which was an amazing game, but had no chance of competing against other racing sims. The problem is that sims are kind of a niche market, so you need the power of a strong publisher to back you up, and the support you get for being a first party studio is essential.
That being said, I think it's pretty amazing what T10 was able to accomplish out of the 360. Having that many cars available with a DVD is an example of how they've maxed the console. Too bad for them PD has a much more capable console to explore.
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Turn 10 couldn't leave MS, MS invented Turn 10. It's their own.
Storage wise, yes.
Storage wise, yes.
I don't know how you fail to see that PS3 exclusives look considerably better than xbox360 exclusive..
(don't bring up multi-plat games because they are developed on the 360 and ported to the ps3 which is the reason why the 360 have the edge there)
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- hardvibes
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He should have brought a peace pipe instead.was kaz holding a cigarette?
Ok, it looks like a small is being created over my post that ps3 is a "more capable" console. I mean that in the technical side. Ps3 has blu-ray and hard drive in every console, and that is an undeniable fact. I'm no expert, but hearing from people who seem to know their stuff, the ps3 has a processing power much greater than the 360. And when it comes to racing games, those attributes are really important. And ultimately, when we see PD getting 16 cars on track with unbelievable graphics, it becomes clear that it isn't T10's incompetence for delivering less in the technical side (8 cars with not so great graphics), it's simply a hardware issue.
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Seismica
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I restrained from posting before to avoid a console war, but your ignorance is annoying. Plus, your flamebaiting has got a bite so congratulations.
Apologies in advance to other users, you don't have to read all this if you don't want to and/or already know the PS3 is technologically better than the Xbox 360. Those who are ignorant or just simply interested, please read on.
Maybe you need to look up the system specs in more detail rather than the basic numbers similar to what is advertised for PCs. The PS3 has subtle advantages that are played down in almost every comparison i have seen.
For starters, you have to understand that neither of these consoles has a graphics card, both have an integrated chip that process the memory given from the RAM. The PS3's RSX graphics chip runs at 550MHz rather than the 500MHz of the Xenos (doesn't appear to be much, but is very significant, has a knock on effect on every single graphical calculation). The RSX has 300million transistors, whereas the Xenos has 232 million transistors. Generally more is better but you have to look at the other things too. Such as:
Shader pipelines;
- Xbox 360: 48 multi-way dynamic shader pipelines, 240 FLOPS per cycle
- PS3: 24 parallel pixel shader pipelines + 8 parallel vertex pipelines, 200 FLOPS per cycle
Now the 360 has more pipelines but they have to accomodate both pixel and vertex shading, whereas the PS3s are independant which is less efficient, but gives better high end performance (because there gets a point where each pipeline on the 360 has to calculate 2 things at once. When this occurs you get a framerate drop). The Xbox 360 can do 48*240*500 = 5,760,000 calculations per cycle. The PS3 can do 32*200*550 = 3,520,000 calculations per cycle. To simplify that, shadows will be better on the 360, but by no means bad on the PS3. But as for shadows on the ground, the quality of the shadow also depends on the texture it is on.
Texture filtering units;
- Xbox 360: 16 texture filtering units + 16 unfiltered texture units
- PS3: 24 texture filtering units + 32 unfiltered texture units
The advantage for the PS3 here is obvious, because it is a straightfoward number comparison. The PS3 calculates 24*550 = 13,200 filtered texture units per cycle and 32*550 = 17,600 unfiltered texture units per cycle. The Xbox 360 calculates 16*500 = 8000 filtered texture units per cycle and the same amount of unfiltered texture units per cycle. In total, 30,800 compared with 16,000 of the Xbox 360, ergo the PS3 calculates textures at double the rate. Wonder why you get the 'pop in' textures on the Xbox 360? This is why. The quality of the textures will in most cases be the same, unless a game has been badly ported.
Render Output units;
- Xbox 360: 8 Render output units capable of 4 Gigapixels per second.
- PS3: 8 Render output units capable of 4.4 Gigapixels per second.
There doesn't appear to be much difference. But as always, the slight difference in clock speed has a knock on effect. So the Xbox 360 develops 8*4*500 = 16,000 render outputs per second, whereas the PS3 develops 8*4.4*550 = 19,360 render outputs per second. This is quite a big difference. The PS3 is capable of rendering more things at a faster rate, so everything looks slightly better, its as simple as that.
Maximum dot product operations;
- Xbox 360: 24 billion per second
- PS3: 51 billion per second
The dot product operations are used to calculate vectors and therefore every 3 operations will calculate a polygon/triangle. Therefore, the PS3 is capable of calculating and producing over double the polygons on screen as the Xbox 360. We see this already with GT5P vs Forza 3, where GT has 16 cars per race and Forza only 8. Its that simple.
To sum up, whilst the quality of the image on well ported cross-platform games will be the same, the PS3 is capable of running it at a much higher framerate. What we see currently though, is developers creating and optimising a game for Xbox 360, then porting them for PS3 and skipping the optimisation stages, so the PS3 version often doesn't turn out as good.
Now lets look at the memory of each console. The Xbox 360 has 512MB of DDR3 RAM running at 700MHz. The PS3 has 256MB of dedicated DDR3 VRAM also running at 700MHz clock speed, but alas that is not all it has. It has a further 256MB of XDR RAM running at 3.2GHz (which is insanely fast for RAM). The DDR3 memory is a no brainer, the Xbox 360 has more of it. But the PS3 makes more use of it due to the 550MHz GPU. The main advantages of the XDR RAM are that it is incredibly small compared to the likes of GDDR3 RAM. But not only that, its memory bandwidth is larger because each pin is capable of more bandwidth. So not only is XDR RAM around 4.5x faster than the GDDR3 RAM, it also has a higher memory bandwidth. So they both have 512MB of RAM, but the PS3's XDR RAM on its own is a match for 512 GDDR3.
The main CPU cannot be compared in detail because the processors in both are rather unique. Its not like your regular Intel vs AMD, these are completely different. So we have to look at the simple aspects. They both run at a clock speed of 3.2GHz. The PS3 has 7 cores and therefore a lot more versatility compared to the Xbox 360's 3 cores. The Xbox 360 has 1MB of cache shared between its cores. The PS3 has 512KB of cache, with an additional 256KB for each core. The more in-detail aspects for the processors are irrelevant (actually so was the cache) because the processors are so different and use different technologies and methods.
Now, the asylum of many PS3 fanboys; Blu-ray. I have to say, initially it looks good, with a Blu-ray holding around 5x the content of a DVD. But then things look bleak when you find out that the read speed of a DVD is infact around 1.5x faster than the blu-ray drive in the PS3. I think blu-ray is irrelevant. The media the games are stored on makes no difference at all. The only clear advantage of Blu-ray is it has the ability to play High definition movies without swapping the disc. Its production cost is within half a € cent of a DVD, and the read speed is semi-irrelevant because with the rapid increase in hard drive space in recent years (And with the 250GB PS3 that is barely more expensive than thae standard model), we will be able to store entire games on the HDD no problem.
Xbox Live vs PSN - Well what can i say? There is little to no difference between them. The online play is equally bad on both, i have played online on both consoles extensively and i can honestly say they suck compared to the dedicated servers you get on PC. Peer to Peer setups are to blame for this. Sony promises dedicated servers for its first party games, but they are still not up to the standard as PC servers as they have to accomodate more people at a reduced running cost. The Xbox live marketplace loads faster, but the download speeds are dependant on your own connection so i think this is irrelevant too.
The Xbox 360 still has something going for it, it is cheaper right? Wrong. The basic Xbox 360 model retails between £130 and £150. It comes with a pathetically small hardrive so you will need to buy one, which is around £20 for a 20GB HDD, or a cheaper used one on ebay. So lets say £155 (for the purpose of this comparison i will not include the wireless adaptor or the old HD DVD drive). The PS3 costs around £230-250 for its base 120GB slim model. It doesn't need any additions, so lets say £240. Now Xbox live is around £35-40. In just over 2 years, the consoles break even. Keep it longer than 2 years and the Xbox 360 is more expensive. And as i have shown in this thread the PS3 is technologically superior, so you are getting less for your money with an Xbox 360.
I rest my case.
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- Nigel Fox
That's a great overview of both systems. The only thing I would add is that the 360's DVD drive only reads faster from single layer discs, and I'm unaware of any single layer game DVDs with the possible exception of auxiliary discs of game content, such as Forza 3's extra install disc.
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WOW! you have done your homework Seismica, I am impressed! (Not that I am anybody to impress.) I do not see how anybody could argue with your info. Great posting mate! 👍 +1000
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