Lair • The Official Thread

[DuckRacer]

Adding it up the scores ave. is 6.7. Far more reasonable than 4.9.

Agreed.

 

[Digital-Nitrate]

So Evan, after this review and the 7.0 they gave Heavenly Sword (which just like LAIR, even their Overall Score was well below the average of the scores they gave it in each category, and is not only the lowest score for Heavenly Sword on GameRankings, but by more than a full point. Despite this, the average score even with the suspicious IGN score was 8.6!)... so considering this and other times where IGN has given noticeably lower scores to PS3 games, do you still think they are "usually generous with their scores" for PS3 games?

I agree that they appear to be unusually generous with their scores for 360 games, but not so much with PS3 games.


BTW: I see they used the same technique of scoring with their LAIR review as they did with their Heavenly Sword review, both giving abnormally low numbers on the Gameplay and Lasting Appeal categories... perhaps to make up for having to give high scores to Presentation, Graphics, and Sound in order to try and lend some credibility to their reviews?

Well, Sony did a stealth release of Lair today. It's available in some stores right now.

Details details... this is the first I heard of this. If only some stores are selling it then they must be breaking street date, like what happend with Bioschock.

 

[DuckRacer]

So Evan, after this review and the 7.0 they gave Heavenly Sword (which just like LAIR, even their Overall Score was well below the average of the scores they gave it in each category, and is not only the lowest score for Heavenly Sword on GameRankings, but by more than a full point. Despite this, the average score even with the suspicious IGN score was 8.6!)... so considering this and other times where IGN has given noticeably lower scores to PS3 games, do you still think they are "usually generous with their scores" for PS3 games?

I agree that they appear to be unusually generous with their scores for 360 games, but not so much with PS3 games.

Mostly yes... at least for now. I mean, they did just give Warhawk a great score (and IMO, they overscored MotorStorm), so I'm not 100% convinced.

And really, we don't know how good or bad these games are, so I'm not going to scream "IGN IS BIASED IT DESERVES A 7" when I could play it, feel like it'd deserve a 4.9 score, and subsequently feel like an ass.

Also as an FYI, with the Heavenly Sword scores, Edge Magazine rated it a 6, OPM UK rated it a 7, and EuroGamer rated it a 7. IGN isn't lowballing everyone.

BTW: I see they used the same technique of scoring with their LAIR review as they did with their Heavenly Sword review, both giving abnormally low numbers on the Gameplay and Lasting Appeal categories... perhaps to make up for having to give high scores to Presentation, Graphics, and Sound in order to try and lend some credibility to their reviews?

Their final scores aren't averages. And really, we haven't played either Lair or Heavenly Sword, so it's premature say they're BSing us on the lasting appeal and gameplay rating (for Heavenly Sword at least).

And I found out something interesting –*if you plug in a regular USB controller that doesn't support motion sensing (like your average Logitech USB controller), you control it with the analog stick. Obviously some moments of the game require shaking the controller so you're stuck when you get to those points, but for flying around like normal, the analog stick on regular controllers work.

 

[Digital-Nitrate]

And really, we don't know how good or bad these games are, so I'm not going to scream "IGN IS BIASED IT DESERVES A 7" when I could play it, feel like it'd deserve a 4.9 score, and subsequently feel like an ass.

But that is a reflection of your personal taste. For instance, just because a site gave Bioshock a perfect score of 9 and someone played it who thought it was more like a 6 doesn't necessarily mean the reviewer or the person playing it was wrong... that said, when a site regularly lowballs or over-scores reviews for specific platforms or developers when compared to the average score from most other reviews, then that's when it smells of bias and not of a unbiased review.

Also as an FYI, with the Heavenly Sword scores, Edge Magazine rated it a 6, OPM UK rated it a 7, and EuroGamer rated it a 7. IGN isn't lowballing everyone.

I guess that's something...

Their final scores aren't averages.

That's the point though. Because they aren't obligated to average their own scores, it even allows them to "adjust" the overall score to their liking... and in many PS3 games they go doooown... but I seriously think IGN reviews have lost a good deal of credibility over the years, and depending on who does the review you never really know what you're going to get out of it. More often then not, they are just trying to "scoop" most other reviewers by posting them early, and perhaps they purposefully post controversial ratings just to attract attention to their site.... come to think of it, if so it looks like its working.

And really, we haven't played either Lair or Heavenly Sword, so it's premature say they're BSing us on the lasting appeal and gameplay rating (for Heavenly Sword at least).

Agreed, which is why I never even mentioned the perfect score Heavenly Sword got from Play magazine until you decided it was relevant to post the low score from IGN. From a personal standpoint, all reviews are pretty much meaningless as at the end of the day, only each person will know what they will find entertaining and fulfilling.... hopefully not based on a poor demo though.

And I found out something interesting –*if you plug in a regular USB controller that doesn't support motion sensing (like your average Logitech USB controller), you control it with the analog stick. Obviously some moments of the game require shaking the controller so you're stuck when you get to those points, but for flying around like normal, the analog stick on regular controllers work.

Now that is cool news. Personally, I've gotten quite used to the SIXAXIS now, so I doubt I'm going to have any problems, but as a back-up, this will be nice to know. 👍

 

[DuckRacer]

Now that is cool news. Personally, I've gotten quite used to the SIXAXIS now, so I doubt I'm going to have any problems, but as a back-up, this will be nice to know. 👍

Yeah, supposedly you can use it for flying around and the like, but since some parts require the motion controls, you won't be able to play the whole game with a regular USB controller.

Anyway... GameSpot review is in:

http://www.gamespot.com/ps3/action/...t=convert&om_clk=gssummary&tag=summary;review

It got a 9.5...





...minus 5 points. The real score is 4.5. They foiled IGN's plans to give out the lowest score.

 

[Dead_Poetic]

I just dont understand how a game that was worked on for so long, with so much time, effort, and undoubtedly money invested, could end up being so terrible. I mean the scores that it is getting arent just unfavorable, they are absolutely ridiculously bad. I mean, it seems like a developer would have to work harder to make a game that bad then to make it better than that. Its assanine. And Im upset because I really thought this game was gonna be a good one. I mean with all of the trailers and gameplay clips, how could this game be that awful? I just dont understand it.

 

[KENJIusa]

The problem is that the motion control in Lair takes a lot of time and practice to master, and I don't think people who review this game play the game more than 2 times, since they have to post up the review as early as possible.

 

[Robin]

Gosh Gamespot have given Lair 4.5....... wow thats low for a first party game, I know they are mainly 360 fanboys but BOY!

Is it really that bad? I was starting to think it would quite a decient title!

Does anyone own this game here, what is your impression of it?

 

[Digital-Nitrate]

Well Even is focusing most of the attention on the bad reviews. LAIR isn't without some good reviews as well. For instance, both GamePro and Game Zone gave it a 7.5

Click HERE to read Game Zone's review in detail, but here is the general summation:

Gameplay: 7.0
The game moves along a linear course but you may feel you are playing for medals and scores at the end of the levels and not trying to uncover the plot that brought the Mokai to wage war. You know there is more to the story and there seem to be few surprises when the game’s plot points are revealed. The controls are sometimes hit or miss when it comes to the SIXAXIS controller.

Graphics: 8.0
Review code (not final code) that contains some clipping problems. Perhaps they will be gone in the retail code. The animations, from the flight of the dragons to the aerial grappling combat (which can be very cool) and ground attacks, is great fun. The effects are also very well done.

Sound: 8.0
Great orchestral musical score, and repetitious dialogue.

Difficulty: Medium
Sometimes you may do the right thing through luck, but generally the game provides substantial direction.

Concept: 7.0
Take a decent story and compelling characters (the dragons and their whole flight mechanics) but a vital part of a success game ingredient – the excitement – just seems to be toned down a bit too much.

Overall: 7.5
There are some frustrations and the game lacks a general sense of excitement that propels you forward at a frantic pace. You may experience that feeling that you are playing for a medal with no personal connection to the characters or storyline. This could have been a stronger title.

This review seems to take an unbiased and much less "dramatic" approach to its review of LAIR than some of those bad reviews Evan posted... which seem to scream for attention with what appear to be some obvious exaggerations, and even some lack of understanding.

Besides, much like what Evan even said, we haven't played Lair so it's premature to say those bad reviews are telling us the truth.

I'd take it a step further and say that even if the bad & good reviews were truthful, that doesn't mean they will apply to one's own personal taste. At the end of the day, much of this is purely subjective, and while someone like Evan might absolutely hate a game, many others may really love it. None would be necessarily wrong (depending of course on how reasonable they were in their own analysis of the game), its just a personal choice.

 

[Zrow]

Wooow... didn't expect low reviews like this. Crazy.

 

[Robin]

Besides, much like what Evan even said, we haven't played Lair so it's premature to say those bad reviews are telling us the truth.

I agree, I always need to see it and play it for myself if possible at a shop or at a friends before I consider a purchase.

Reviews just aid me gain an early understanding of the game and if they point out failings I will see if they really are that bad in my opinion to warrant giving it a miss or whether I can live with them.

However some games like gran turismo are a no brainer purchase to me!

Robin

 

[Zrow]

Wait, why are they "biased" just because Lair apparently sucks?

 

[Digital-Nitrate]

Wait, why are they "biased" just because Lair apparently sucks?

No. Why not read what I said again:

This review seems to take an unbiased and much less "dramatic" approach to its review of LAIR than some of those bad reviews Evan posted... which seem to scream for attention with what appear to be some obvious exaggerations, and even some lack of understanding.

And while you are at it, the comments I quoted from the review.

Not only am I saying that the review that gave it a 7.5 which was noticeably critical of several things about LAIR seemed unbiased, but that I said the specifically bad reviews Evan pointed out seem to scream for attention with what appear to be some obvious exaggerations, and even some lack of understanding.

No need to try and twist my words around to suggest that not only do I know for fact that they are biased, but that only because they say something negative it means they are biased - as CLEARLY that's not what I said.

Any kind of review can be biased, great or horrible, or whatever. It pays to read the remarks, and how they compare to what many other people are saying, what you know to be true from your own knowledge base, and what you know from reliable sources when making a personal judgment on how biased you feel they may be. Clear enough?

 

[DuckRacer]

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=175070&page=17

So, you can use a USB pad to play Lair... and you can play Lair on your PSP through Remote Play. Seriously.

It's LAN only, so you can't play Lair when your PS3 is on the other side of the country, but still. Lair on PSP!

EDIT: This just gave me an idea... what if GT5 works with Remote Play? Could this be the reason why GTMobile isn't being talked about?

 

[Robin]

The last time I checked Sony said that the only thing you couldnt do with remote play was stream and play PS3 games on your PSP, maybe they have finally added this functionality...

If its over LAN you might aswell just go and play it on your PS3!! Although if you had the net and no TV around you could use the PSP as the TV..

Robin

 

[Digital-Nitrate]

If its over LAN you might aswell just go and play it on your PS3!! Although if you had the net and no TV around you could use the PSP as the TV..

Or if one person wanted to watch TV and another wanted to play a PS3 game. Nice to have that option, but as you say I don't think most would ever use that option.

 

[icelt]

Regardless the limitations that's pretty dang cool.

 

[Solid Fro]

I wanted to break my SIXAXIS after 10 minutes of Lair. Seriously, what the ****? I felt like I was playing Lair on the Wii. The dragon wanted to fly upwards thus making you hold the controller in a weird downward position. That's fine until it's time to press the triggers...

Ugh.

At least the game is in 1080p. The dragons sound like TIE fighters. Maybe Factor 5 should stick to their Star Wars games.

 

[Digital-Nitrate]

Rumor: Lair controls improved after PS3 1.92 FW update
Posted Sep 04, 2007 at 07:18PM by Nicolo S.

Even after keeping an eye on the changes Sony's PS3 Firmware 1.92 brought about, we may have missed something. Rumor has it that recently launched game Lair by Factor 5 received tweaks in the control department that fixed most problems gamers had.

One of the biggest complaints about Lair is how making tight turns is close to impossible. Not only were gamers forced to use SIXAXIS, but they were also deprived of precision that a lot of gamers argue should be in a dragon-flight simulator. However, a video posted on YouTube shows Lair with tighter controls supposedly after the firmware update.

As you would see, the person playing is able to do small movements without the dragon making wide turns like it usually does. The controller used to play the game is on screen, making it clear that there's only a small delay between SIXAXIS movements and the dragon's.

See for yourself by watching the embed below:

That's all fine and good, but I still think they should have made the SIXAXIS control an option.

 

[Solid Fro]

I had 1.92 before I played Lair. Believe me, the controls still suck. I still keep hitting the analog sticks for movement. Ugh, my copy of Lair is already on its way back to GameFly.

 

[Pako]

It's nice that it works, but with a 300ms delay, it's just not worth it and Sony should have demanded better. I wonder if the delay is hardware or software related. I don't remember the duck demo being this delayed.....

Ok, so besides being forced to use the axis control, what else can you say about this game? Is it a total rental or don't even bother? As anticipated as this game was, it sucks to see the disappointment across the internet.

 

[Raitziger]

http://www.psu.com/Sony-releasing-Lair-review-guide-News--a0001245-p0.php

"If only Greg had the Reviewer's Guide when he wrote his review." IGN.

 

[Digital-Nitrate]

Makes sense considering the learning curve of using the motion controls, although a much better solution would be to make motion control an option, rather than mandatory.

Considering all the time and effort and cost they put into this game, I'll be very surprised if they don't release an update that allows players to not have to use the motion control to fly the dragon.

 

[Dead_Poetic]

Ok but PSU gave Lair an 8.5...biased? I think so.

 

[Digital-Nitrate]

Ok but PSU gave Lair an 8.5...biased? I think so.

Seems so to me.


Here's an interesting article that address the problems witht he motion control as well as reveals the "Hot Coffee" Easter Egg in LAIR:


'Lair' Struggles To Overcome Curse
Dragon-game director also reveals its 'Hot Coffee' cheat code.
Posted on Sep 4 2007 1:29 PM EDT by By Stephen Totilo

There was a time during the development of this week's new PlayStation 3 dragon-fighting game "Lair" when its director, Julian Eggebrecht, thought it was cursed. That time began two years ago and — hopefully for him — ended this summer.

"I am not a believer in ghosts, but this one was haunted," Eggebrecht told GameFile over the course of an e-mail interview conducted from his native Germany, where the developer was on vacation. The first sign of supernatural interference emerged on the eve of Sony's PS3 unveiling in May 2005. Eggebrecht's team at development studio Factor 5 was delivering the first trailer of "Lair" to Sony's then-head of global PlayStation business, Ken Kutaragi, just in the nick of time. Then came trouble.

"Our trailer was very dark, and we delivered the trailer with a different black level for the frames than Sony was expecting, making them even darker," Eggebrecht said. "They showed the material at the last minute to Kutaragi-san, who didn't see a thing and bounced us off the [PS3's demo] reel. That's why the first tech-trailer was shown at the PlayStation meeting a few months later. That was the start of one catastrophe after the other — deaths in the family at the worst time [and] sudden surgeries for key members, which bounced the technology off-track. And just in general, every single time there was a crucial delivery, something bizarre went wrong — all the way to power outages when writing the master disks."

In the commentary for the game — yes, this is one of the few games that includes a level-by-level DVD-style commentary, unlockable upon completion — Eggebrecht and the game's producer, Brian Krueger, joke from the very start about a "dragon-game curse." Had the commentary not been recorded on the game's Blu-ray disc before the reviews of "Lair" hit, they might have seemed like a defense from the scorching it has received.

Instead, the curse complaint sounds like an honest reaction to an arduous project, an uncommonly frank statement in a game that presents itself not as the end to something, but the beginning of a conversation. It is the rare game with explanatory audio tracks by its creators and a menu-screen link to forums where people can discuss which parts of this first-year PS3 game work or fail.

"Lair" puts the player on the back of a dragon in the midst of an epic war. The gamer makes their beast spit fireballs with a tap of the square button and steers with the tilt of the motion-sensitive PS3 Sixaxis controller. The dragon turns a 180 when the player yanks back that Sixaxis, a motion misinterpreted often enough by the game as an attempt to zoom straight forward that one reviewer at Electronic Gaming Monthly said, "Don't buy it if you want a dragon that does what it's damn well told." This is a game that has received high fours — out of 10 — from GameSpot and IGN. This is, in fact, one of the most harshly reviewed games from a developer used to strong scores (Factor 5's four previous titles, all in the "Rogue Squadron" Star Wars series, cumulatively averaged an 83 percent review score, according to Metacritic).

What haven't received many complaints are the game's Hollywood-level production values, standard-setting detailed visuals and epic score. Nor has it been accused of holding back, of skimping on scale or variety. One level late in the game includes a detailed fortress, several thousand individual troops, two warring fleets of ships and dozens of dragons in the sky. All of this is available for the player to engage, spitting fireballs, ramming enemy dragons, fighting the larger beasts in one-on-one midair "Punch-Out"-style tussles, landing on the battlefield to burn and chew soldiers, ripping apart turrets with hind claws — and more. The complaint is that this stuff doesn't come together and that the elements don't congeal into something fun enough to cost $60.

Would less have been more? " 'Lair' was the wrong game for holding back," Eggebrecht said. He wanted something epic and involved, something that wouldn't be accused of being, in his words, a "predictable 'Rogue Squadron' clone."

Of Factor 5's last three games, "Lair" is its second title released in a console's first year, the other being its GameCube-launch "Rogue Leader" title. A console's first year sometimes produces classics such as "Super Mario 64" and "Halo" but generally is filled with games overshadowed by those made when the inner workings of the hardware is better understood. Creating an early title can be like creating a rough draft.

"That is exactly the kick of creating a first-year game: exploring the not-yet-finished hardware and growing the technology while the hardware is coming together," Eggebrecht said. "I think both 'Rogue Leader' and 'Lair' gave a good stab at poking into the depths of the systems for such early titles, and from that you have a second-generation growth opportunity that surpasses most developers that jump onto the bandwagon later."

What Eggebrecht is weathering now are the limitations that poking into the PS3's depths may have revealed about his game's concept, its platform, its controller, Factor 5 or perhaps some combination. The matter circles back to that question of motion-controlling the dragon's flight. When asked by GameFile how often that yank-back-to-do-a-180 move works for him, Eggebrecht replied: "About eight out of 10, which is the same ratio that I get in 'Wii Sports' tennis when I try to do a backspin."

Yes, indeed, that poke into the PS3 has made a developer admit that his game's controls don't work every time. Eggebrecht said that is the nature of motion-control systems, which won't always be able to recognize the player's ever-varied gestures.

What's more, Eggebrecht said that's OK: "The Sixaxis motion control itself feels a lot more organic and free-form than the rigid controls of other flight games and does much better for casual players, as we saw in focus tests. It does seem to alienate some reviewers who are at the top of the hard-core crowd and seem to have a passionate hate for all things motion, be it 'Wii Sports' with sometimes absurdly low scores for what might become the defining game of this generation, or 'Lair' as their newest poster child of evil. It's an unfortunate development that, if the players themselves listen too much to the motion-hatred message, will divide the gaming community. Our potential for growth as an art form for the mainstream is in the easier-to-access control schemes that might be less precise but a lot of fun."

Perhaps the game's jagged edge needn't be smoothed? Or perhaps it is a rough draft worthy of revision? As early first-stab games go, this is the rare one that doesn't hide from its flaws and even suggests that reaching far — maybe too far — is an experience gamers and cursed developers may agree is worth paying for.

More from the world of video games:

Julian Eggebrecht and "Lair" have been in recent game headlines — and the last two GameFiles — but not just because of reviews. The game designer commented last month at the Leipzig Games Convention about the effects of ratings boards on censoring/ cleaning up the content of his team's PS3 game. Asked by GameFile about speculation that the Entertainment Software Rating Board required his Factor 5 team to alter the game's camerawork in order to achieve a T rating instead of an M, Eggebrecht replied, "No, we had to tone down reactions of enemies, amounts of blood, and angles and style of carnage. There also was a lot of debate about the tone of red of the blood. Contrary to what you might think, the harshest cuts were in the dragon-to-dragon melee fighting, something that hurt the impact of the combos somewhat." ...

At Leipzig, Eggebrecht revealed that he wanted to include a cheat called "Hot Coffee" in the game, a joke reference to the hidden sex scene that got "Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas" pulled from store shelves two years ago. The code would have revealed a video of a coffee maker. Eggebrecht clarified to GameFile that the cheat code was pulled "jointly between Sony and us. Of course I don't want to put my publisher into a political mess. I am very concerned about an atmosphere of fear having the potential for self-censorship by game makers, and I truly hope we will move past the ratings." And to help have some fun with that, he revealed to GameFile the replacement cheat code that leads to the coffee maker. "Lair" owners, input this: 686F7420636F66666565. ...

 

[Dead_Poetic]

Its interesting, but its almost as if he knew it was going to be a failure, and just sort of gave up on it. That probably isnt exactly what happened, but it does give that connotation. Oh well, Heavenly Sword seems to have turned out ok....

 

[SRV2LOW4ME]

Picked this game up tonight and I'll hopefully get to play it soon (hopefully this weekend), so you should see a review of it not too far in the future.

 

[Pako]

Picked this game up tonight and I'll hopefully get to play it soon (hopefully this weekend), so you should see a review of it not too far in the future.

Can't wait to hear some unbiased reviews of this game.....

Looking forward to it.

 

[SRV2LOW4ME]

Had a chance to play it a little, although not that much to be honest. After finishing the flight tutorial, I went ahead and completed the first mission with minor problems. Aside from the amazing graphics and sound (the game is in THX for those with surround sound) the flight controls were pretty easy to master - except for the "dash" command.

I've head the 180 command being a problem, but after realizing its just a simple tug up with a slight pause on the up, it was easy to complete, the problem comes with the forward motion to dash as many times it confuses it with the 180 command and you end up going the opposite way.

I've gone ahead and started doing the flight/fight and ground control tutorials which teach you all you need to know, and I have to say completing them all really helped me out in understanding that the input of the motion sensing should be given in a smooth motion, as jerking it around really sends you off course quickly. Targeting is pretty easy aswell, although the distance between you and the object to be targetted often changes (sometimes it will target an object from far off and others you have to be almost right at it) which can be fairly frustrating, although easily overcome with better aim. Another complaint is the arrow guiding you around as it never really tells you up or down, just direction (yellow arrow for correct, red for wrong way) which can confuse you during special missions if your unsure of your height. Most of these may be worse then they are since I'm new to the game, and I'm sure I'll be able to work around them with more play time.

Graphically though, its amazing, and soaring over the water and bridges covered with 1000+ troops, catapults and dragons will leave you breathless. Controls for the dragon on the ground are pretty good, and the camera does a fairly good job of following you as you tear apart whole squads of troops and even goes into slow motion when you start pulling off some massive kills. A plus about the targeting system is that you don't have to let go of the button after a kill, it will automatically target the next creature on screen making dragon dog fights much easier. So far there hasn't been any noticable slow downs and lag of the game during play, even when I run through squads of men, tossing them all over. I feel the whole situation of people not liking the controls comes from the frustration of them not grasping them correctly, and after reading many of the reviews and watching a couple video reviews, I'm almost failing to see what they were complaining about (especially with flying and targetting, as I picked off the bull things on the bridge with no problems at all) so I have to agree with some that they were lil biased in their review.

Hopefully tomorrow I'll get another chance to play it some more. It really is enjoyable to play though, and if you are still questioning it, atleast give it a rent and make sure to complete all of the tutorials atleast once to get a good grasp of the controls before making your decision. Although I'm not that far into the game, I have to say that the purchase so far seems to be a good one.

 

[Pako]

What can I say, I've waited way too long for this game to not pick it up. It's fun, refreshing, and graphically pleasing to look at with the occasional frame drop that I'm willing to over look. The controls as SRV2LOW4ME explained don't seem near as bad as all the reviews have tried to convey. The biggest thing is to just stay calm and not freak out.

I just did the first 5 missions last night but will give it more time. It's a pretty linear game, which is find these days....considering the complications of real life.