Learn from Forza

[RedOak]

Then go play NFSU2.

I prefer realism over fake which I mean in something actually helps the car like the spoilers in GT4.
I think alot of us do.

That is exactly the problem i have with the 'anti-need for speed2 attitude'... forget the fact that its an arcade game... and lets take out the neon... Lots of those cars, even fake looking, beat freakin' Ferraries because they can be fake outside, but they still sport a good engine.

Live4Speed has a good point, which brings two debates:

Having a BMW pass you by is not a problem, but if its got a Neon is a problem... so is it the Neon itself or the fact that the guy in the BMW decided to put a Neon under his BWM...

Ultimatly, purists are against anything that is not 100% realistic... and i've seen my fair share of track people laughing at big spoilers and neons, and be in a seriously bad mood because they lost by exactly that... a car with a neon and a oversized spoiler... because the driver was very good and had a very good car, neon or not.

now i understand the concept of the Neon being distracting other drivers and stuff, but if its because its too prepy, i completly disagree with that statement.

I'm in the videogame business, and if putting the option of neons in a racing game featuring regular cars (i stress regular) will bring me 100,000 more sales.. you can be sure i'll put neons in the game. regardless of whatever purist gamefans who scream 'no' at it.

 

[McLaren]

Oh yes, I'm incredibly Anti-NFS U

Considering the fact I beat the original NSF:U 3 times.
Yes, they have the power...but that power is all you need.

Seriously, you want this in GT5. Fine you buy it, but don't expect great comments from us in GT5's Photomode.

NFSU and U2 only had a very few nice kits.

I like modding my cars like the MazdaSpeed RX-7 kits, but I'll only go so far before I stop.

You want something like that in GT5? Fine. You drive it. Just hope you like extra non-needed weight when driving the 'Ring.

 

[Dave A]

Like real racing, these things should not be allowed in races, maybe make one series for pople that want to do that where it's allowed, but not in any others. I don't mind things being in the gameif I don't like, as long as it doesn't make an impactonhow I have to play the game. Realraces don't allow neons, so don't allow them in races inGT5, but you can take photo's of a car with neon irl, so why not in GT5 if thats what your into. I couldn't care less, as long as races are kept as realistic as the GT series will allow.

 

[SagarisGTB]

Body kits? no.
Racing Modification? Yes.

There was more in the original GTs race mods (and i loved them) than a downforce providing body kit and rear spoiler. The cars were sponsored appropriately (no pink cars with custom designs on the sides like in the xbox game), and the cars were gutted out to save weight and increase stiffness. Way better than their stage 3 weight reduced counterparts. If GT dont bring it back right, than they shouldnt bring it back at all.

Oh, and PD should make sure that all pop-upheadlight cars get fixed lamps when race modified. Bugged me in GT because its unrealistic.

 

[Gabkicks]

lots of body/aerokits have functionality. Even if they dont i still would like to see them. The more customizable cars are the better. I would like the RE-amemiya bodykits/aerokits for an rx7 alot.

I even would like super rice mods like the ones in NFSU to be in the game just so that when i destroy the ricemobile with my almost stock looking car.... it will be so sweet.

 

[My_Sterious]

Do you guys know what a body kit is? A body kit isn't limited to what you see in MaxPower and in NFS:U. GT racers have body kits, in GT1and 2 we could give most of the cars body kits. Neons and that crap are a definite no, but performance body kits are a big yes. The original idea of GT was to turn your road car into a race car, you can't enter a stock bodied Viper in a GT championship and expect to do well, you need to give it a body kit that will generate downforce.

I know what a body kit is. I know that GT cars use body kits to gain more downforce, and after a good night of sleep, I'm ready say it would be neat to give your 900bhp Skyline a body kit just so it would look like a GT racer. But like you guys have said, and I too, neons, hydraulics, and those massive NFSU-style-body kits are a BIG no.
If PD wants to put body kits back to the game, my advice is to keep them simple and as far away of NFSU body kits as possible.
I just wonder how easy it will be to make body kits to all of the 700+ cars it will have...

 

[Dave A]

Body kits? no.
Racing Modification? Yes.

The race mod was a bodykit, it was just a pre-selected one. I'd rather pick my own parts to create a car that can produce performace levels I want not some pre-selected levels.

 

[Young_Warrior]

Then go play NFSU2.

I prefer realism over fake which I mean in something actually helps the car like the spoilers in GT4.
I think alot of us do.

Who said I wanted te bloody neons and stupid scissor doors and hydrolics and boot build. I want the painting options the option to decide on what size rims I want and some bodykits with aero advantage.

Forza had all that but it was rubbish. Not enough options.

 

[amar212]

The one and only thing that GT (Sony) could "learn" from Forza (Microsoft):

• having a HDD (hard-disk) inside the console can add so much to a racing genre in total

 

[NSX-R]

The race mod was a bodykit, it was just a pre-selected one. I'd rather pick my own parts to create a car that can produce performace levels I want not some pre-selected levels.

Thank you! That's exactly what I was about to say.

 

[RedOak]

Thank you! That's exactly what I was about to say.

Same here. That's exactly what i mean.

I want to choose the parts.
I want to choose the colours (stress: colours)
I want to choose the sponsors (stickers, vinyls, whatever...)
I want to choose the wheel size.

and so on and so on...

 

[crimson_menace]

How'd I miss this thread?!?!?!

I'd like to see some customizable paint, and some different & flashy rims, spoilers and aerokits. I wouldn't like to see neon, or any crazy stickers. But I'd definately like to see some in depth customization options. GT is the only decent racer without customization that I've seen, and I hope they're on the ball, and put some in the next GT installment.

'Sides...no matter how many little ricers roll up to the line against my XJ220, I will still destroy every one of the little b@stards!

 

[Kay-tek]

It 'd be nice if the next GT would expand the customization possibilities a little bit.

I'm not talking about ricing, just stuff like a paintshop, choosing rim size, exhaust diameter that changes when you upgrade it, and probably some aero parts that don't look like they came from a fighter-jet.

 

[JohnBM01]

One of the longest-running debates we have on GTP is about customization. The trick is about having enough customization so that it doesn't become a NFS:U-inspired game. I guess I'd like to seperate fact from fiction on the issue of customization.

Statement: "Body kits and paint jobs make for 'rice rocket' games."
Verdict: Fiction (with some considerations).
Reason: It is possible to have certain aero kits for cars without being more like "rice rockets." But just because such a game like Forza Motorsport has body kits and paint jobs doesn't mean that it's a "ricer" game. It just means that people involved in the performance tuning scene want to be able to add different aero parts want to be able to lighten the car with different materials as well as possible. If GT had such capabilities for tuning, it would make an already hot segment of the automotive culture come alive in an already-broad automotive world expressed in the GT series.

Statement: "Gran Turismo is going to be the next NFS:U with these options."
Verdict: Fiction.
Reason: If it's going to be the next NFS:U, illegal street racing and Hollywood-style car stunts. The Paint Shop deal is perfectly fine. I don't think we'll see Billy Bob's Nissan 350Z with a Veilside making its way into a GT game anytime soon. The Tuner cars that will be in GT will likely be original tuner cars with some sort of horsepower and/or visual upgrades. While some customization won't hurt, it won't be too much to give the game a personality it was never meant to have.

Statement: "NFS:U-type customization will make GT5 better for all."
Verdict: [Completely] Fiction.
Reason: The success of a GT game is in enjoying a world of cars with many types of racing and allowing all sorts of oppurtunities to race or test drive a car. Sure, customization is good, but think about what you can be able to disregard in a game and see if it still makes a good game. Take all of GT4 into GT5 and disregard extra customization, then you leave behind the past problems. And on customization, it's a good idea, but remember. It is a racing game, not a dress-up game. You don't race, you don't win, you don't excel. Dig?

So all in all, extra customization is good, as long as it's done right.

 

[Dave A]

^ Agreed.

 

[RedOak]

At this point, i'd like to point out that Gran Tourismo is not a 'Racing simulation' but a 'Driving Simulation'.

If it was a Racing Simulation, normal cars wouldn't be part of this game. It would be just like GTR, a very advanced simulator for racing cars... but a very boring one at that.

Gran Tourismo is about taking a normal car, and driving it to its limits. If a player feels he wants to put big spoilers, or whatever else... why not allow him?

 

[[insert name]]

I don't care about the whole bodykit thing, and if it limits the cars to 200, I'm not really for it. Sure, you can race super cars on GT, but you can also race turbo-powered Abaths on Tsubaka. Variety and the physics are why I bought GT.

I personally think that GT should step up its AI, if anything else. Damage would be preferable, since it's realistic, and there wouldn't be car smashing in order to stop. Might also stop cars from going on the grass, if it damages shocks. But AI... With decent, realistic AI, GT would easily smash Forza into the ground. From what I read in reviews, Forza's AI likes to kill your face. =/ That doesn't sound like much fun, or very realistic.

 

[Clutchman83]

I concur, AI is the most important thing. PD needs to fix this before they try to incorporate a multiplayer mode!!! I don't care if I play against a human driver, give me an AI that doesn't hit my car every time I outbrake them, and doesn't run off the track EVERY lap at the same point and I'll be happy!

 

[SavageEvil]

I concur, AI is the most important thing. PD needs to fix this before they try to incorporate a multiplayer mode!!! I don't care if I play against a human driver, give me an AI that doesn't hit my car every time I outbrake them, and doesn't run off the track EVERY lap at the same point and I'll be happy!

Actually that's backward working, since GT5 will be online. AI need not be of much importance, heck they can just have the Ai just mimic the top drivers lines and vary it depending on what's going on around it. I don't need an AI that harbour angst because i cut him off, last lap, would be great, but...really basic aware, prepare, calculate and apply AI is all GT needs. But the physics, online and presentation are key to GT5, then comes cars, tuning options. One thing i really must stress is PD somehow forgets cars and what options are available to it in stock form. They need to cut that out, it's annoying, been doing this since GT2...you remember the info section on the car, would say it has adjustable spoiler and such, buy the car and nothing. . I'm itching soo much to hear solid details on GT5, i play GT4 with dreams of taking on 29 others in a race to the finish on the Nür.

 

[Dave A]

Not everyone will be playing GT5 online, I suspect a lot if not most players will be playing offline to win the cars even if you can do that online.

 

[Fujiwara Bunta]

I have to agree, not everyone will want to play online I personally played forza online for about 2 weeks then got bored/irritated mainly because it seemed everyone wanted to do the same races everytime (Nurburing, or this big oval), the other irritaing part was "clubs" people that weren't in someones club usually got kicked out of the room so it might take you 10 mins to find a race on a good track with people that didn't kick you out before you even get to race.

^ I realize that was kinda off topic I just wanted to state there are downsides to online mode as well.

now on to things I'd love to see:

-- better physics related to understeer, why is it that I need r3 tires to take some of the hairpins above 20mph and not slide off the track?

--AI that doesn't get in your way: It may just be me, but it's really irritating in an even race when you can out corner a car and catch up constantly yet you can't pass without taking a trip through the grass or a horrible line, and risk losing control, because the slower car won't let you by. I could be wrong but isn't it against the rules to block a faster car in pretty much every racing event out there? also AI that doesn't ram you at full speed when you brake early for a corner and knock you off the track, if it can out corner me, fine but don't do nothing to avoid an accedent an ram into my car at 150mph cause your too stupid to move over 6 feet.

-- Paint/body mods of some type: I feel that painting and graphics were something Forza excelled at, I love GT4 (well all the gt games really) but you never feel like you "own" the car. Sure you can change wheels (But you can't make them bigger, unless you count the little size bump you get running racing tires). But you can't do anything that makes the car feel like anything other then a rental.
I'm not suggesting that it has to be a 16 color paint schemes or insane body kit designs, But the ability to make a car your favorite color(s) or adding wide fenders, etc. adds that touch of realism that makes you say this is "my" car. You have the ability to store 1000 cars in your garage yet no matter what, they are basically the same car everyone else that plays GT has, in other words the purple sil-eighty I have in my garage is the same purple sil-eighty 90,000 other people have in the garages on their game (minus wheel style, wing/no wing, and personal settings). And if there was a race of 6 sil eightys people wouldn't know if it was me, or someone else. It's all about immersion in the game .

 

[JohnBM01]

Before I begin, this is your first post, so let me welcome you to GTPlanet, Fujiwara_Bunta.

From Posts #49 and #50 by "SavageEvil" and "Live4Speed" respectively, that was one argument I made when people thought that PD backstabbed GT fans when online play was dropped in making GT4 despite promised online play. The argument in question was that someone said that that having online play would make the AI issue obsolete. Live4Speed, you're right. Not everyone will be playing online play, and that especially includes myself. This is pretty much an era in which mutliplay is sometimes just as important, if not more than the game itself. I normally say that a game has to be good solo before you talk about more than one player. The ONLY time in which multiplay is as important is if (1) the game's problems solo can be patched up and made better with someone else, or (2) it is a game which is made for multiplay (for example, Unreal Tournament/Championship series, almost any sports game, a multiplayer-required racing game, etc.).

I don't own an XBOX, but I'd like to imagine that the Nürburgring Nordschleife and oval races would be tops because either people have no life or just don't really play by the rules. Forza was told to have fully-integrated XBOX Live career mode. I had one major issue with this, and it's simple- how can you be assured that other drivers didn't max out their car's performance, drive like idiots, or anything like that? Everyone talks about GT needing less "dumb" AI, so how can you tell me that some human racer that has enough intellgence as a rock is any better than an AI driver? And how can you trust that a human racer won't be as dumb as an idiot who rams you off the track and damages your car (my personal gaming experience- Forza (demo), Pro Race Driver (PS2))? This is a shaky issue at best. I've made my own thread called "What (If Anything) Can GT Learn From Forza?" (do a search), so some other issues to learn are there. Other than that, my work is done here for now.

 

[Patrik]

I must have said this a hundred times, but bring back the race modification option. Do you guys remember those 'LM' cars?

yeah, that was the best! then in GT5 if tuning a classic muscle car you can race modify it or dragrace modify it , if they include this dragracing it will say...

 

[SavageEvil]

Fujiwara. most people play on the Nur and the big oval because the other courses aren't very inspiring. I dislike the oval because it's too boring, and the Nur in Forza is just plain wrong. When you can't follow driving tips from professionals on the most famous road in the world, something has to be said about your credibility.

John, my argument about the AI. I'm basing this of the amount of GT forum members I've some across, I've even played my GT4 using X link, believe you me, GT players are aching to get online. Not to say that the AI should suffer, more like it needs a little rewriting, especially in the awareness area, it's slow there. I've watched the AI gain on me and pass cleanly, so I know it's not stupid. Also it's aggressiveness needs to be ramped up, but I guess the AI is programmed to drive with fears of going as fast as possible(might explain not so high straightaway speeds). Hopefully PS3 faster processor aids in AI implementation. We'll hope and wait, but regardless I will purchase GT5.

 

[Fujiwara Bunta]

John, thanks for the welcome , I absolutely agree about people online possibly being as bad if not worse then AI. I also had the experiance for meeting a few racers who did nothing but wipe me out over and over (which is way to easy to do on forza, is every track covered with ice and no one told me? hehe). Or people who feel it's nessisary to call you names, etc. because thier beating you (or not good enough to beat you) which is something that plagues basically every game on xbox live.

I know a lot of people complain that the AI is "stupid", and I for the most part agree (like I mentioned in my first post). However, there's a down side to making them "smart" as well, and that is the AI could possibly get so good that you could never win, because they would take perfect lines, compensate for tire wear, take out agression on you, etc. which would require you to either run a perfect race or you'd lose everytime.

So maybe something that would be a good idea would be a "tunable" AI something where you get a check list of things you can turn on and off (for things like Ai holding a grudge) or a slider where you can pick a percentage for how often the AI can do something like take a perfect line though a corner. That way if you find the AI too hard you can adjust the game so they corner worse, or are afraid to get close enough to draft for example. Or if you feel you are getting to good you can raise their agression, or thier ability to take a perfect line so that you have to bring your best or you get wasted.

After having played online games for around 6 months now I've come to the conclusion that their really not all that fun, since more often then not you seem to run into players that would rather cheat then practice and beat you with skill. If GT5 comes with an online mode I will likely give it a try but for me playing solo or multiplayer or LAN games with friends is where it's at.

Edit: SavageEvil, I have to agree, most of the tracks on forza are pretty crappy, some were even rip offs from GT ( New York even though the route was a little different and the track that looked like complex string who's name I can't remember ). I personally liked maple valley and the mountain course on Forza though. I was just saying it got really old going in to every room and it was either the ring or the oval not that those tracks are bad, just that after the 5th time racing nur in one game session you really just want a new track .

 

[Dave A]

The key to the AI is to let you choose how good you want them, have the best setting make them pretty much perfect, the worst, easier than it is in GT4, and lenty of setting inbetween. Online can be frustrating at frst until you build up a nice buddies list of people you know race well, then it becomes far better than racing the AI can ever be. But even then I'd still race offline at times, like in LFS, I spend a lot of time offline racing the AI to test setups and learn new lines ect, or just to have a quick blast. I don't try a car I haven't driven before online, not only would I suck in it, but I'd probably frustrate other racers.

The ranking syste being used in the next Race driver might be a great way to sort online races, it basically gives you a ranking from every race, each different type of event has different rankings, and whatever rank you are, you race against people of the same rank, so say your rank 5 in the touring cars, you'll race other rank 5 players, no rank 1's tht either can't keep up, or just piss about and no rank 10's that just dissapear after the first corner and you only see them again when they lap you.

 

[JohnBM01]

Fujiwara_Bunta suggested something from EA Sports games- tunable AI. Like with my NCAA Football and NCAA March Madness games, I tuned the CPU and Player's abilities. In this example, I can tune everything from kicking accuracy to pass blocking to even the frequency of penalties in football games. Then in basketball, you can tune things like 3-point shooting, dunk frequency, and even fouling. With Gran Turismo, defining elements down to sliders can be tough because you have to consider aggression, alertness, driving skill, defense, offense, strategy, and all that. Just too many variables for a racing game, and I don't know if things will be accurate all the time.

When I've seen people's comments on Forza, I usually notice "GT4, but with online play." Nowadays, online play is a necessity. Then, it was just an option, and I STILL see it as an option, but only if the game doesn't require multiplay. If it requires it, it's no problem to me, but otherwise, I'm not complaining. The difference between the two is that an option is for those who want to do a certain thing, it is available to the gamer or gamers. You don't need it to equate to a great game, but it can help. Necessity means that it is essential for a game to have it, and without a certain feature, it ends up being underappreciated or mediocre. In the case of GT games, it can go both ways, depending upon the gamer. The Internet (don't laugh) brings all of us close together even if miles away. As GT gamers, we are all part of a worldwide community. As much as I say that we are a community, that community has people with interests like and unlike ours. Some like body kits and neons while the others... well, you know. Some like fast cars, some like fast and slow cars. We're all different, and for a racing game like Gran Turismo, we need a connection. I don't know what Forza did for racing and car afficionados, but surely GT has some car lovers. This is the reason why many different gamers want different things for GT whether we like the ideas or not.

For the sake of the online gamers, I hope PD and Sony can get it done in terms of getting multiplayer working for those who want it because let's face it. Not every future PlayStation 3 owner will want to do online racing. But for those who want to, make it happen, PD players. Can you dig that?