Lift-off Oversteer

[Jaywalker]

Is there a sort of 'rule of thumb' for settings to reduce or eliminate this?

 

[Bowtie-muscle]

Is there a sort of 'golden rule' for settings to reduce or eliminate this?

Trying raising/lowering LSD Decel and rear damper extension. Start with the dampers, raise and lower and watch the effects, then do the same with the LSD. Find out where you would like them and boom, there you go.

 

[Jaywalker]

Trying raising/lowering LSD Decel and rear damper extension. Start with the dampers, raise and lower and watch the effects, then do the same with the LSD. Find out where you would like them and boom, there you go.

Thanks, mate. 👍

Edit: Do I do anything to the brake balance?

 

[Bowtie-muscle]

Thanks, mate. 👍

Edit: Do I do anything to the brake balance?

Lower them and see, could be too much front.

 

[Jaywalker]

Lower them and see, could be too much front.

Cheers, I'll try that. I'm trying to get the BTR to behave a little bit better in the intermediate seasonal without doing a full published tune & taking away the entire character of the car...

 

[Bowtie-muscle]

Cheers, I'll try that. I'm trying to get the BTR to behave a little bit better in the intermediate seasonal without doing a full published tune & taking away the entire character of the car...

Good luck.

 

[DolHaus]

Again on the subject of LSD tuning, try to bring your Initial and Decel closer together. When you are on the brakes you are in the Decel phase (the number is setting the potential differential speed between inside and outside wheels) when you release the brakes you enter the Initial phase. If the Initial is substantially more open (lower number/higher differential speed) than the Decel then the outside wheel is going to accelerate and cause excess rotation when you release the brakes.

The other thing to look at is your front damper compression and rear damper extension, by increasing both of these you will prevent the car transferring so much weight onto the front wheels during braking and stop the rear end going light and losing grip. If this doesn't work then it could be a case of your front extension being too low and shifting the weight too quickly back to the rear end when the brakes are released causing it to kick out and overload the rear tyres.
If the car feels like it is moving about too much or getting a bit nervous then increase the ARBs to take some of the excess movement out of the suspension. Lowering the ride height will also help to stabilise the car overall but be careful not to go too low or you will run the risk of bottoming out the shocks/chassis

Hope that helps 👍

 

[Jaywalker]

Again on the subject of LSD tuning, try to bring your Initial and Decel closer together. When you are on the brakes you are in the Decel phase (the number is setting the potential differential speed between inside and outside wheels) when you release the brakes you enter the Initial phase. If the Initial is substantially more open (lower number/higher differential speed) than the Decel then the outside wheel is going to accelerate and cause excess rotation when you release the brakes.

The other thing to look at is your front damper compression and rear damper extension, by increasing both of these you will prevent the car transferring so much weight onto the front wheels during braking and stop the rear end going light and losing grip. If this doesn't work then it could be a case of your front extension being too low and shifting the weight too quickly back to the rear end when the brakes are released causing it to kick out and overload the rear tyres.
If the car feels like it is moving about too much or getting a bit nervous then increase the ARBs to take some of the excess movement out of the suspension. Lowering the ride height will also help to stabilise the car overall but be careful not to go too low or you will run the risk of bottoming out the shocks/chassis

Hope that helps 👍

Thanks for this very informative response! I've learnt something here... 👍

 

[332i]

Cheers, I'll try that. I'm trying to get the BTR to behave a little bit better in the intermediate seasonal without doing a full published tune & taking away the entire character of the car...

It could be not enough in the rear as well, throwing off the balance. Bias up front is obviously going to make the nose dive deeper, depending on suspension settings, which naturally pulls weight off of the rear axle assembly.

 

[Jaywalker]

It could be not enough in the rear as well, throwing off the balance. Bias up front is obviously going to make the nose dive deeper, depending on suspension settings.

Thanks. I'll keep that in mind...

 

[332i]

I try not to use the diff to correct it, because you end up limiting your entries and losing time. It usually end up with a higher lock rate on decel than accel, which is no good and feels odd. I used to build differentials and the manner in which the diff changes the setup and reacts with the physics is pretty good to be honest. I've used a lot of different diffs and it is pretty spot on. I balance the car off as best I can with 25 accel and 24 decel and then go changing that along with toe until the car does what I want it to. The fastest setups are always loose on entry and hook up hard on exits with the ability to throttle the rear out. You want a car that basically glides in with slight countersteering on entries, so you get a nice arc through mid turn and a little loose on the way out. It takes a while to build up a good compromise that has the right amount of stability.

I find that soft front damper compression settings help with higher rear rebound settings help, too. It doesn't really make them softer by much, they just don't compress as quickly for the most part; ie 10 compresses immediately and 1 compresses very slowly. I think having soft rebound in the rear makes t lift oversteer worse, because it creates a sort of hang time in the rear. At least that's what it feels like. Higher spring rate in the rear helps to. That's the first thing I adjust when t-lift oversteer is an issue. Either the springs are unloading to harshly or not quickly enough as the rear lifts.

Just had a hell of a time getting a merc 2.3 evo road car in order. Big time throttle lift oversteer. Getting the rear spring rates "right" was what it needed. I actually used a low decel lock. I think it was 12 or 15. Sometimes the decel lock can cause it as well. If it is locks at too high of a rate, you'll end up dragging one rear tire at a slower speed on entry and go right around. There is a sweet spot on the decel lock for sure. You can't dial it up to the point that you understeer on entry, but as you know...you don't want to deal with too much (or any) oversteer on entry. As soon you get wheels going at different speeds, one or more is getting hotter than the others and that will leave you with poor mid turn grip. That's something to keep in mind when your playing with diff rates. Use the data logger and watch your tire temp icons on the lower left when you're driving/tuning. At entry you want no more thsn the fronts getting a bit warm, at midturn you want both outside tires warm, but not glowing and on exit, you want the front right as cool as possible with neither the rear tires glowing up. If one of the rears glows on exit, you need to adjust the diff. If your inside rear glows up, dial up the accel and decel on point at a time. If the outside rear glows up on exit, lower your accel at minimum and decel if it matches the accel rate.

Hope some of that helps. I don't resort to mismatching nose to tail heights. That leads to compromises. There is always a way with a level car and it leads to better performance and stability. It just takes a LONG time, which is why you see whack setups in seasonal with cars that are 130 front and 80 rear or some crap like that.

Explore toe out in the rear as well. A lot of people don't like it, but with the correct settings, it can help throttle lift oversteer. I use toe out on every Ferrari I have. I use toe out on the old school 911, too. The btr or whatnot. Can't remember the RUF designation.

 

[Jaywalker]

I try not to use the diff to correct it, because you end up limiting your entries and losing time. It usually end up with a higher lock rate on decel than accel, which is no good and feels odd. I used to build differentials and the manner in which the diff changes the setup and reacts with the physics is pretty good to be honest. I've used a lot of different diffs and it is pretty spot on. I balance the car off as best I can with 25 accel and 24 decel and then go changing that along with toe until the car does what I want it to. The fastest setups are always loose on entry and hook up hard on exits with the ability to throttle the rear out. You want a car that basically glides in with slight countersteering on entries, so you get a nice arc through mid turn and a little loose on the way out. It takes a while to build up a good compromise that has the right amount of stability.

I find that soft front damper compression settings help with higher rear rebound settings help, too. It doesn't really make them softer by much, they just don't compress as quickly for the most part; ie 10 compresses immediately and 1 compresses very slowly. I think having soft rebound in the rear makes t lift oversteer worse, because it creates a sort of hang time in the rear. At least that's what it feels like. Higher spring rate in the rear helps to. That's the first thing I adjust when t-lift oversteer is an issue. Either the springs are unloading to harshly or not quickly enough as the rear lifts.

Just had a hell of a time getting a merc 2.3 evo road car in order. Big time throttle lift oversteer. Getting the rear spring rates "right" was what it needed. I actually used a low decel lock. I think it was 12 or 15. Sometimes the decel lock can cause it as well. If it is locks at too high of a rate, you'll end up dragging one rear tire at a slower speed on entry and go right around. There is a sweet spot on the decel lock for sure. You can't dial it up to the point that you understeer on entry, but as you know...you don't want to deal with too much (or any) oversteer on entry. As soon you get wheels going at different speeds, one or more is getting hotter than the others and that will leave you with poor mid turn grip. That's something to keep in mind when your playing with diff rates. Use the data logger and watch your tire temp icons on the lower left when you're driving/tuning. At entry you want no more thsn the fronts getting a bit warm, at midturn you want both outside tires warm, but not glowing and on exit, you want the front right as cool as possible with neither the rear tires glowing up. If one of the rears glows on exit, you need to adjust the diff. If your inside rear glows up, dial up the accel and decel on point at a time. If the outside rear glows up on exit, lower your accel at minimum and decel if it matches the accel rate.

Hope some of that helps. I don't resort to mismatching nose to tail heights. That leads to compromises. There is always a way with a level car and it leads to better performance and stability. It just takes a LONG time, which is why you see whack setups in seasonal with cars that are 130 front and 80 rear or some crap like that.

Explore toe out in the rear as well. A lot of people don't like it, but with the correct settings, it can help throttle lift oversteer. I use toe out on every Ferrari I have. I use toe out on the old school 911, too. The btr or whatnot. Can't remember the RUF designation.

Thanks for all of this, mate. I'll have to print it & keep in my file...

 

[Motor City Hami]

I have a pretty different theory on tuning the LSD. Rather than rehash it here, click the garage link in my signature below. The LSD can solve many handling issues. PD has programmed it as a bit of a super tune. I think it has more effect than it should, but this is the way they have built the game.

 

[Bowtie-muscle]

Thanks for all of this, mate. I'll have to print it & keep in my file...

I have a pretty different theory on tuning the LSD. Rather than rehash it here, click the garage link in my signature below. The LSD can solve many handling issues. PD has programmed it as a bit of a super tune. I think it has more effect than it should, but this is the way they have built the game.

I, as do MANY others, rely on Hami's LSD theory! Not really a theory in my opinion as it is proven to work and work effectively. Worth the read, and not just his LSD info but complete tuning guide! You will learn almost all you need to know.

You could also check out General Tuning Guide by @DolHaus here.

 

[F1Racer68]

I, as do MANY others, rely on Hami's LSD theory! Not really a theory in my opinion as it is proven to work and work effectively. Worth the read, and not just his LSD info but complete tuning guide! You will learn almost all you need to know.

You could also check out General Tuning Guide by @DolHaus here.

I could not agree more with this. @Motor City Hami and @DolHaus guides are, in my opinion, the best resources on this site.

 

[DolHaus]

I have a pretty different theory on tuning the LSD. Rather than rehash it here, click the garage link in my signature below. The LSD can solve many handling issues. PD has programmed it as a bit of a super tune. I think it has more effect than it should, but this is the way they have built the game.

I think we have slightly different theories on how the LSD functions in game but both approaches work and can be used to solve a multitude of handling issues 👍

 

[Motor City Hami]

I think we have slightly different theories on how the LSD functions in game but both approaches work and can be used to solve a multitude of handling issues 👍

I only see two differences in our approaches. You see the LSD decel setting only working under braking where I see it working any time you are off throttle. So coasting down to the apex or late corner entry, I think it still has an affect. The only other difference is in trying to keep accel and decel relatively close together. I don't worry about that.

In general, when tuning the same car, we would probably end up with settings in the same general direction. 👍

 

[332i]

It definitely goes into decel lock when you lift.

 

[Jaywalker]

I have a pretty different theory on tuning the LSD. Rather than rehash it here, click the garage link in my signature below. The LSD can solve many handling issues. PD has programmed it as a bit of a super tune. I think it has more effect than it should, but this is the way they have built the game.

I, as do MANY others, rely on Hami's LSD theory! Not really a theory in my opinion as it is proven to work and work effectively. Worth the read, and not just his LSD info but complete tuning guide! You will learn almost all you need to know.

You could also check out General Tuning Guide by @DolHaus here.

I could not agree more with this. @Motor City Hami and @DolHaus guides are, in my opinion, the best resources on this site.

I think we have slightly different theories on how the LSD functions in game but both approaches work and can be used to solve a multitude of handling issues 👍

Thanks again for all the input. I'll definitely give it a read... 👍

 

[332i]

Thanks again for all the input. I'll definitely give it a read... 👍

Lol they're more focused on respectfully disagreeing with each other at this point than giving advice.

 

[Bowtie-muscle]

Lol they're more focused on respectfully disagreeing with each other at this point than giving advice.

Disagree, just because they may differ does not mean they do not help.

 

[Jaywalker]

Lol they're more focused on respectfully disagreeing with each other at this point than giving advice.

I think you can never have too many opinions or too much info, so it's all good...

 

[332i]

Disagree, just because they may differ does not mean they do not help.

Where did I say the info in the disagreement is unhelpful??? What?

I think you can never have too many opinions or too much info, so it's all good...

Of course Haha I didn't say I wanted them to stop It is free entertainment sometimes.

 

[F1Racer68]

It is always helpful to have differing opinions on a subject. Seeing things through another set of eyes gives you a more balanced view of the topic.

In general, I tend to lean more towards @Motor City Hami's LSD theory, but having @DolHaus theory and approach offers me another tool in my toolbox to tackle those unique situations. I personally don't have enough "real world" knowledge to be able to say one is more correct than the other. I only know that by using their theories I am able to setup my cars to where I can be competative in my league and even win the odd race.

In the end I use whichever approach gets me the best results for the particular car and track I am working on.

 

[332i]

^^^agrowerculture gave me the best advice I've received for series/championship/league racing. The dude usually finishes in the top 10-20 for most race car time trials and I've raced with him for a while during nights, so I take his word for it usually. Square the car away to a very solid setup and use it as the template you take to each track. Then merely adjust the toe and ARBs per circuit. It usually takes just one tick up or down on the skiders. He was 100% correct, too. I was off changing too much for each circuit beforehand and it wasn't producing. Made me much more competitive in FGTA F1 which is a super high end field to battle. Any other series I've done recently and merely changing the above settings that he told me to resulted in pretty dominant cars. I just backed out of a DTM series, because of a lot of issues and silly drama in it...but I made the base setup at apricot and with those minor changes on it from track to track...dominant. I notice that many tracks...all if have to adjust is the rear ARB and toe. I generally leave the front end alone, because I sculpt setups around the way I want it to feel and work the rest in.

Some tracks I need a little lift off, some I don't. The sway bars can definitely cure some lift off. Balancing the front to rear sways can solve it sometimes. Or at least make it manageable, but they also produce their own issues. You may get rid of the lift off, but suddenly it blows when you get on the throttle or the car pushes on exit, etc.

This stuff just ends up requiring a lot of testing. If a car takes me more than a few days to square off and be a sure-shot winner online, then I just pass on it and keep it as a car for offline. Usually a car I like in real life that just doesn't perform too hot in GT6. Some of the RRs and MRs for example just don't want to enter correctly and can't be sorted out to the point that it is a competitive car at whatever PP you're shooting for. A lot of the MRs are great, though. Most FRs are decent to make competitive, but some have serious braking issues. They cannot compete under braking. I setup an r32 gts and the braking is so bad, that the car is pointless to use online.

The only FRs that I have issues with lift off are ones that are weight biased to the front. But that can usually be solved fairly quick with a half decent setup.

Sry, went on a few tangents.

 

[Motor City Hami]

^^^agrowerculture gave me the best advice I've received for series/championship/league racing. The dude usually finishes in the top 10-20 for most race car time trials and I've raced with him for a while during nights, so I take his word for it usually. Square the car away to a very solid setup and use it as the template you take to each track. Then merely adjust the toe and ARBs per circuit. It usually takes just one tick up or down on the skiders. He was 100% correct, too. I was off changing too much for each circuit beforehand and it wasn't producing. Made me much more competitive in FGTA F1 which is a super high end field to battle. Any other series I've done recently and merely changing the above settings that he told me to resulted in pretty dominant cars. I just backed out of a DTM series, because of a lot of issues and silly drama in it...but I made the base setup at apricot and with those minor changes on it from track to track...dominant. I notice that many tracks...all if have to adjust is the rear ARB and toe. I generally leave the front end alone, because I sculpt setups around the way I want it to feel and work the rest in.

This may be one of the first times on this site that I mostly agree with you. Track to track changes for me are usually toe and dampers. Once you have a base tune that works well, it will work pretty well at most tracks. The dampers mean so much in GT6. PD did a nice job at modeling how dampers should work.

 

[F1Racer68]

For the most part I agree with that as well. Everything being equal and remaining constant on the car, then very little changes from track to track. Mainly the dampers and toe as mentioned, and of course the final drive on the transmission.

In our league's case it gets a bit more complicated as we implement a "Success Ballast" rule. That means that the overall weight of the car changes from one track to the next, at least for the top tier drivers. When that happens, changes to the setup become a bit more involved. Since the amount of weight will vary from one track to the next (podium finishers add, non-podium finishers remove weight) the cars characteristics are constantly changing.

Now, I think I better get this conversation back on topic @Jaywalker - Have you had a chance to try any of the above suggestions yet? How have you made out?

 

[332i]

This may be one of the first times on this site that I mostly agree with you. Track to track changes for me are usually toe and dampers. Once you have a base tune that works well, it will work pretty well at most tracks. The dampers mean so much in GT6. PD did a nice job at modeling how dampers should work.

Haha you're a good dude.

And yes @F1Racer68. If I have to go beyond toe, rebound and ARBs...springs and ride height are the one thing I will not touch. Ever.

 

[Jaywalker]

Now, I think I better get this conversation back on topic @Jaywalker - Have you had a chance to try any of the above suggestions yet? How have you made out?

I've been pretty tied up with other things, but I should have some time this week... 👍

 

[KniX]

Haha you're a good dude.

And yes @F1Racer68. If I have to go beyond toe, rebound and ARBs...springs and ride height are the one thing I will not touch. Ever.

It depends on the track for me. For the most part I go to ARB and wheel angles for track to track tuning, but certain tracks will need the ride height adjusted and then the springs to go with. The Nurburgring I will raise up the ride height a bit and soften the springs. Generally I go as low as the track will allow and not all tracks allow me to go as low as some do.