Lift-off Oversteer

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Yes 332i you are correct, the springs do support the weight of the vehicle. Giving you the benefit of the doubt, yes when the springs are tuned one could say they are supporting the weight as the car moves while the body pitches and rolls. I see what your trying to say you meant. It's still not as simple as "springs sole purpose is supporting the weight" as if thats all there is to it. You act like Scaff is over complicating it but he is being very simple and basic about it using the proper terms. Your oversimplification using improper terminology is what's over complicating, confusing, and misleading.


A part where you are simply wrong is thinking one spring rate (even a tuned spring) is going to be ideal at every location in GT6 or Real Life. You opened the door to both GT6 & Real Life when you said that is how it's done in both GT6 and real life. I think every single pro race team in every aspect of motor sports racing will disagree with you. It is easier to generalize your spring rate when dealing with 1200 cars on over 70 tracks, you should know a generalized spring rate is not an ideal spring rate for anyplace. The same car put under different conditions will see different loads. A fast track where a car gets average speeds around 125mph that is very smooth and flat will not have the same ideal spring rate at a track with an average speeds around 75mph that is rough and full of elevation changes. The springs used on the 125mph track can use a much higher frequency i.e. stiffer spring than the same car running at the 75mph track. The stiff springs of the smooth track don't like the roughness of the 75mph track, it has too high of a frequency, where the softer springs of the 75mph track are too sluggish on the 125mph track, too low of a frequency. All the elevation changes at the 75mph track have the car going from positive to negatived G and back the set up for the 125mph track is too low the car bottoms out in the dips, raising the ride height solved the problem, but now the springs have more travel and I'm transferring more weight (COG height) Simply put the loads are a result of the conditions of the track, changing the track changes the conditions and the resulting loads, the loads are in your language how much weight the spring will have to support.

Like at Silverstone GP and Nurburgring ?

 

[1241Penguin]

Which would you like me to re-read?

Brian Beckman's Physics of Racing
The set-up manual from the Skip Barber racing School
The Porsche driving manual
Alan Stainforth's Race and Rally car source book

Would you say that those books are n00b friendly? Something to act as a gateway for learning more about how cars work.

 

[AHR3EX]

Like at Silverstone GP and Nurburgring ?

Silverstone compared to Nurburgring North Loop or Bathurst. Tskuba compared to Laguna Secca or RBR. Every track is somewhat unique, even similar tracks will have different conditions.

 

[mister dog]

Let's not forget our meme tradition in these cases:

Didn't know people could get so worked up over springs.

 

[RyanRacer]

I posted in the wrong thread.

 

[Ronald6]

Would you say that those books are n00b friendly? Something to act as a gateway for learning more about how cars work.

Good question, interested in that answer myself.

Trying not to let this question get lost in the flotsam.

 

[Motor City Hami]

Would you say that those books are n00b friendly? Something to act as a gateway for learning more about how cars work.

The first book to get is the Skip Barber book, Going Faster. It covers more on driving and what the car is doing at different segments of the track than it does tuning. But, it is important to understand the dynamics of the car in the corner and its relationship to your inputs. Once you understand the basic weight transfer of the car based upon your inputs, you will have a better chance at understanding tuning.

The second book that I would recommend is Tune to Win by Carroll Smith. I found half of the book easy to understand and the other half took more than one read through to fully get the concepts.

 

[Scaff]

As above I would strongly recommend Going Faster, the Skip Barber book.

Ignore what the now banned member who clearly hasn't even seen a copy let alone read it (its not a booklet at 275 pages), it covers a wide range of race craft skills while also going into a balanced level of detail on set-up and how it will affect the car and still finds time to cover reading the track (an often overlooked area).

While the Brian Beckman and M&M resources go into a lot more technical detail they are simply not as well balanced in terms of accessibility for most and 'Going Faster' is the place I would suggest starting.

 

[Jaywalker]

Geez! And all I asked was:

"Lift Off Oversteer.

Is there a sort of 'rule of thumb' for settings to reduce or eliminate this?"

 

[Scaff]

Geez! And all I asked was:

"Lift Off Oversteer.

Is there a sort of 'rule of thumb' for settings to reduce or eliminate this?"

It depends very much on the car and what is causing the lift-off in the first place, its not really a case of one thing fixes all causes.

In reality the first port of call would normally by the ARBs, either softening the rear and/or firming up the front.

Also keep in mind that in some cases you will not be able to get rid of it or will at best be able to reduce it slightly, and you may well have to adjust your driving style rather than trying to bully the car into a set-up that simply causes more and more compromises to try and fix.

 

[Jaywalker]

It depends very much on the car and what is causing the lift-off in the first place, its not really a case of one thing fixes all causes.

In reality the first port of call would normally by the ARBs, either softening the rear and/or firming up the front.

Also keep in mind that in some cases you will not be able to get rid of it or will at best be able to reduce it slightly, and you may well have to adjust your driving style rather than trying to bully the car into a set-up that simply causes more and more compromises to try and fix.

I get that, thanks. I was referring to all the hooh hah that question resulted in...