London Bridge/Borough Market Terror Incidents

[TRGTspecialist]

In checking wikipedia, I find references to the Islamic Party of Britain and the Respect party. Both seem defunct. Which current party is picking up their former adherents? I would guess Labour.

Whilst Respect is defunct George Galloway, their former leader, is standing in this week's election as an independent, presumably on a similar platform (though I don't actually know. Or care )

It's worth saying that Galloway is, ahem, a "vocal" man, and is the main reason Respect had the profile they did - they never actually had that much political representation. Islamic Party of Britain? Never even heard of them.

But yes, opinion polls suggest Muslims significantly back Labour.

 

[Dennisch]

And yet the police were able to remove the threat within minutes

That because the police has something that most members of the public don't have.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Is there an Islamic or Muslim political party in the UK?

Not that I know of... and I'm not sure what function it would have, we all live together on this cramped island and for the vast majority of us the real world is pretty much exactly the same. Money/jobs/education/health are issues that are important to all of us so at a national level such a party is unlikely to thrive. There are some councillors at local levels who were elected on a platform that included their faith but that's more likely to be an issue at a single community level. A heavily Bangladeshi ward is more likely to return a Bangladeshi councillor and so on.

Hull might be the exception on a national level, Diane Johnson MP couldn't be more Norf'Ull.

 

[Dotini]

Not that I know of... and I'm not sure what function it would have, we all live together on this cramped island and for the vast majority of us the real world is pretty much exactly the same. Money/jobs/education/health are issues that are important to all of us so at a national level such a party is unlikely to thrive. There are some councillors at local levels who were elected on a platform that included their faith but that's more likely to be an issue at a single community level. A heavily Bangladeshi ward is more likely to return a Bangladeshi councillor and so on.

Hull might be the exception on a national level, Diane Johnson MP couldn't be more Norf'Ull.

I note that the labour party mayor of London is Muslim, and that there seem to be various constituencies about the land in which the ~20% Muslim voters may swing the vote one way or the other. Usually labour, it would seem. Perhaps labour will win the election and provide more effective solutions to the terror problem?

 

[polysmut]

I note that the labour party mayor of London is Muslim, and that there seem to be various constituencies about the land in which the ~20% Muslim voters may swing the vote one way or the other. Usually labour, it would seem. Perhaps labour will win the election and provide more effective solutions to the terror problem?

Whether they do or don't, I don't see them as a religious party myself.

Edit: I'd be White British if forced to label myself & I recently moved to an area in which white is a minority. I love this neighborhood which is one of the reasons I moved here.
I dislike religion but can respect people's religion if it's important to them. There are places of worship for almost every religion I can think of within spitting distance of my gaff.

Our local MP (Labour) is Jewish & what I've learned about him so far is that he's pretty cool. Historically I've defaced my ballot far more often than I've selected a candidate but if I'd moved here early enough I'd seriously consider voting for him next week. It would be my first vote ever for a Labour candidate & I've also never voted for the (currently in government) Conservative Party.

 

[Dotini]

Whether they do or don't, I don't see them as a religious party myself.

True. But even so, Labour are a political party, and inasmuch as there is a political aspect to your domestic terrorism, they may have more insight than the other parties into the causes of terrorism. Best to deal with it before it morphs into insurgency.

 

[polysmut]

True. But even so, Labour are a political party, and inasmuch as there is a political aspect to your domestic terrorism, they may have more insight than the other parties into the causes of terrorism. Best to deal with it before it morphs into insurgency.

Why do you think the Labour Party may have more insight than the other parties into the causes of terrorism? I think the parties are probably pretty equal in terms of their knowledge on that.
How they handle it may vary but I'd reckon they're each driven more by their own political choices.

 

[TenEightyOne]

...Labour....may have more insight than the other parties into the causes of terrorism.

The non elected expert agencies remain the same in any case, an elected party would maintain as much insight as any other.

Interestingly the first sign of a counter-terrorism sweep is usually colour-coded spray paint on manhole covers, Corbyn's an expert on manhole covers (true story) so maybe you are onto something

 

[ECGadget]

I note that the labour party mayor of London is Muslim, and that there seem to be various constituencies about the land in which the ~20% Muslim voters may swing the vote one way or the other. Usually labour, it would seem. Perhaps labour will win the election and provide more effective solutions to the terror problem?

Just to clear up (though you probably know already), whilst Mr Khan is indeed a Labour member, he is not the 'Labour Party Mayor of London', he is just the Mayor of London, like BoJo before him. That being said, I see your point but London itself is divided into many many constituents, so having a Mayor that is Labour and Muslim would hardly affect those results as it is not him we would be voting for.

For example, where I currently live the Mayor is also from the labour party, but two of the three constituencies here have a Tory MP representing them I think. The MP I wanted to vote for is a Labour MP but he is in the adjacent ward to where I am voting sadly (He is a really good man). If it was not for the fact that I want Theresa May out I would not have voted the way I have for my own area MP, simply because I have a massive dislike for him and I sincerely hope Jeremy Corbyn finds a way to oust him from the labour party post election. If it wasn't for that, I would have voted Green or Independant, based on this single MP who I do not want, despite being a labour* supporter in general.


*Not Tony Blair labour. Ugh.

 

[ExigeEvan]

New information so I don't think double posting is an issue?

I've just met somebody who says he works for ShowSec. A security company I've heard of because I've worked on events where they were present. He said his uncle worked for the same company & was killed at the MEN last week. I had a pint with him & felt his grief, tried to reassure him that the entire world isn't about to be killed by terrorists & was generally sympathetic.
Obviously he wasn't in a position to hear statistics & I'm not insensitive.

Be wary, I can't find anyone in the current named victims that is associated with ShowSec or the security at the Arena. ShowSec have also not made a statement on the matter. Neither is conclusive.

 

[polysmut]

Be wary, I can't find anyone in the current named victims that is associated with ShowSec or the security at the Arena. ShowSec have also not made a statement on the matter. Neither is conclusive.

I was aware as always that there was a possibility of untruthfulness. Weird guy if he was making it up.

 

[Scaff]

There's a dissimilarity between the two. You acknowledge that it is for a large city to do this just as it is for an airline, but his statement was for the general public. I disagree with his assertion that, to quote:

“Part and parcel of living in a great global city is you’ve got to be prepared for these things, you’ve got to be vigilant, you’ve got to support the police doing an incredibly hard job."

Why should I have to be prepared? Why should terrorism be part of my life?

Are the people of Tokyo, Melbourne, Sydney, Budapest, Reykjavik thinking it's "part and parcel" of living in those cities to be vigilant for terrorism?

-----

Does anyone find it a tad ironic that the people "liking" the opposing argument are the same people who "liked" posts saying they didn't want to know more about the Manchester bomber and his histories.

Ignorance it seems, truly is bliss

What was that about Melbourne not needing to be vigilant?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...e-isis-police-gunman-explosions-a7773201.html

 

[MeanElf]

Nope, you're reacting to the importance given to such events by the news. Non-terrorism murders continue to far outweigh terrorism murders, for example. So do choking deaths (sexual or otherwise), cancer, road accidents and death trumps*. At fewer than 4,000 deaths globally this year terrorists have a long way to go before they actually become dangerous to the point that the headlines suggest. Carry on letting them win by living in fear if you like, I shan't be doing so.


*I made that one up

I don't actually watch the news and I certainly don't let it influence me (not in its current state.) I'm also not living in fear from the acts of any terrorists; hey, having lived through the troubles of the 70s and 80s I've seen worse.

Perhaps I wasn't clear - I was tired. I was more concerned for folks living under the internal threat in the US which as you rightly pointed out, has far more victims than acts of terror (except when they are white supremacist acts, which do fall under the category of terrorism too.) Perhaps I was allowing myself to be influenced slightly by the info that so many multiple shooting gun deaths had taken place, along with the 'put-into-perspective' figure of this being the 144th this year so far.

You forgot lawn mowers by the way - those things take a pretty big annual toll too.

My ultimate point therefore - why should I be cowed when so many other statistics are far higher and apparently considered inevitable to some degree.

 

[mister dog]

And yet the police were able to remove the threat within minutes..

Was I talking about the police? No I was talking about the people that had to deal with these religious fruitcakes before they arrived...

 

[prisonermonkeys]

What was that about Melbourne not needing to be vigilant?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...e-isis-police-gunman-explosions-a7773201.html

It is worth noting that there are a lot of parallels between the Brighton siege and the fatal shooting of a police officer in Queensland this week. Victorian police are investigating the possibility that the Brighton gunman took a hostage to try and lure the police into a trap, which mirrors the shooting in Queensland; the shooter in that case lured the police into a trap. Both shooters had a similar background, with a history of violent crimes and drug use. The only real difference is that the Brighton shooter was Muslim.

 

[DLR_Mysterion]

What was that about Melbourne not needing to be vigilant?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...e-isis-police-gunman-explosions-a7773201.html

Think deeper.

This was again the son of refugees....

If anything you're making a case for the Right/anti-immigration parties.

Meanwhile we've been told that the people shouting "This is for Allah" as they slit throats wasn't....really a Muslim. Damn, they must have been Buddhists in disguise.

http://www.standard.co.uk/comment/c...ing-to-do-with-the-islam-i-know-a3557116.html

 

[prisonermonkeys]

This was again the son of refugees

Correlation does not imply causation.

Meanwhile we've been told that the people shouting "This is for Allah" as they slit throats wasn't....really a Muslim.

Do you believe that Anders Behring Breivik is a Christian? After all, his manifesto announced him as "one hundred percent Christian".

 

[DLR_Mysterion]

Do you believe that Anders Behring Breivik is a Christian? After all, his manifesto announced him as "one hundred percent Christian".

Yeah, if he said he was, then he was.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Yeah, if he said he was, then he was.

So you have the power to choose who does and who doesn't represent your faith. Why then won't you allow followers of Islam that same power?

 

[DLR_Mysterion]

So you have the power to choose who does and who doesn't represent your faith. Why then won't you allow followers of Islam that same power?

I don't have "the power", it's just you can't keep saying all the bad people of your faith aren't actually followers and the pious and good ones only are the true followers. It doesn't work like that.

A lot of the those massacring people in Bosnia were Christian, but then a lot of people subsequently saving people via NATO were Christian. I don't go out and say those who slaughtered "weren't actually Christians". Plus the case is magnified with recent terrorist attacks as they are carried out in the name of the religion, which isn't what happened with Bosnia.

 

[Scaff]

Think deeper.

About what? How you have not addressed the actual point?

This was again the son of refugees....

And?

If anything you're making a case for the Right/anti-immigration parties.

Nope.

Meanwhile we've been told that the people shouting "This is for Allah" as they slit throats wasn't....really a Muslim. Damn, they must have been Buddhists in disguise.

http://www.standard.co.uk/comment/c...ing-to-do-with-the-islam-i-know-a3557116.html

Quote mining again. You really must stop that.

That's not a suggestion by the way, your habit of deliberately misleading posts ends right now.

Yeah, if he said he was, then he was.

Does that make you a terrorist then?

 

[prisonermonkeys]

you can't keep saying all the bad people of your faith aren't actually followers and the pious and good ones only are the true followers

In which case, you'd be in here doing your I-told-you-so dance. It doesn't matter what Muslims do because you'll always find a way to spin it in such a way that they're always in the wrong. And you do it because they're not like you. Should I therefore judge all Chistians to be intolerant, judgemental hypocrites because you are?

 

[Scaff]

I don't have "the power", it's just you can't keep saying all the bad people of your faith aren't actually followers and the pious and good ones only are the true followers. It doesn't work like that.

Nor did Khan say that it anything close to it.

You have literally created a false narrative and the based your entire argument around it.

It's a deeply misleading thing to do and has no place here at GT Planet.

Right now you have a few options.

Demonstrate he said the were not Muslim's, correct your claim accurately or leave.

Pick one and make it your next post.

 

[DLR_Mysterion]

Quote mining again. You really must stop that.

"This sickening act has nothing to do with the Islam I know"

"Followers of a perverse ideology who murder innocent Londoners and visitors are an utter desecration of Ramadan and a rejection of the true values of Islam."

"the sick and wicked ideology of these evil extremists is no form of Islam that I recognise"

??

 

[MeanElf]

...This was again the son of refugees...

Have you ever considered what it is like being a child of a refugee/asylum seeker/emigre who has been born into the new land that their parent(s) moved to. They grow up as a part of the wider community if they are lucky and not living in a semi-ghettoised area - that would depend on the circumstances financially of the parents at the time of arrival and of course their fortune with finding work. Mostly though, they'll be poor and stay low income for a long time, even if say the father was a scientist or a lawyer back where he came from, due to employers requiring local qualifications - a sad excuse by the employers as far as I'm concerned, but that's another matter.

So, this child grows up alongside the other children, seeing a world of hope and potential surrounding them - that is until they reach their teenage and start moving around in the community by themselves. They soon find out that some opportunities aren't as open to them as their classmates; they also see/hear some of the public's response to the tone of their skin or their religion. They realise that they are being treated differently.

Consider then when they start going for jobs and find things are worse because of the neighbourhood they grew up in, or the other factors just mentioned. Some know that they could still rise up above this by working harder than those around them - others though, may never get up out of that pit caused by discrimination. of those, some turn to their cultural roots, where others make them feel better about themselves and no so alone in the outside world.

Within that circuit, certain recruiters move carefully, working to pluck the ripe ones, or try to. It doesn't always work on the disenfranchised, as we can see by the relatively small number of young members who become extremists. The point though is, you can appreciate how and why this happens.

Everyone who treats these kids and their parents as outsiders, helps make this situation worse - feeds the extremism waiting outside. Ostracising and interring those who potentially could be extremists, will only create more of them.

The solution is integration, not the single-sided effort most western societies seem satisfied with, but the willingness to accept refugees/asylum seekers and immigrants into their country and make them feel welcome, learn about who they are and their ways. If they feel the same as everyone else around them, they are very unlikely going to be swayed by the call to extremist agendas.

 

[Scaff]

"This sickening act has nothing to do with the Islam I know"

"Followers of a perverse ideology who murder innocent Londoners and visitors are an utter desecration of Ramadan and a rejection of the true values of Islam."

"the sick and wicked ideology of these evil extremists is no form of Islam that I recognise"

??

None of which is saying they were not Muslim's.

It's saying they are Muslim's that don't hold values he agrees with or recognises.

Not a thing in it comes close to this....

Meanwhile we've been told that the people shouting "This is for Allah" as they slit throats wasn't....really a Muslim. Damn, they must have been Buddhists in disguise.

....so for the very last time.

Pick one of the three options.

Demonstrate he said the were not Muslim's, correct your claim accurately or leave.

 

[DLR_Mysterion]

Have you ever considered what it is like being a child of a refugee/asylum seeker/emigre who has been born into the new land that their parent(s) moved to. They grow up as a part of the wider community if they are lucky and not living in a semi-ghettoised area - that would depend on the circumstances financially of the parents at the time of arrival and of course their fortune with finding work. Mostly though, they'll be poor and stay low income for a long time, even if say the father was a scientist or a lawyer back where he came from, due to employers requiring local qualifications - a sad excuse by the employers as far as I'm concerned, but that's another matter.

So, this child grows up alongside the other children, seeing a world of hope and potential surrounding them - that is until they reach their teenage and start moving around in the community by themselves. They soon find out that some opportunities aren't as open to them as their classmates; they also see/hear some of the public's response to the tone of their skin or their religion. They realise that they are being treated differently.

Consider then when they start going for jobs and find things are worse because of the neighbourhood they grew up in, or the other factors just mentioned. Some know that they could still rise up above this by working harder than those around them - others though, may never get up out of that pit caused by discrimination. of those, some turn to their cultural roots, where others make them feel better about themselves and no so alone in the outside world.

Within that circuit, certain recruiters move carefully, working to pluck the ripe ones, or try to. It doesn't always work on the disenfranchised, as we can see by the relatively small number of young members who become extremists. The point though is, you can appreciate how and why this happens.

Everyone who treats these kids and their parents as outsiders, helps make this situation worse - feeds the extremism waiting outside. Ostracising and interring those who potentially could be extremists, will only create more of them.

The solution is integration, not the single-sided effort most western societies seem satisfied with, but the willingness to accept refugees/asylum seekers and immigrants into their country and make them feel welcome, learn about who they are and their ways. If they feel the same as everyone else around them, they are very unlikely going to be swayed by the call to extremist agendas.

Whaaat.

So now it's our fault for the lack of integration...?

"Poll reveals 40pc of Muslims want sharia law in UK"

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...ls-40pc-of-Muslims-want-sharia-law-in-UK.html

None of which is saying they were not Muslim's.

It's saying they are Muslim's that don't hold values he agrees with or recognises.

Not a thing in it comes close to this....

Meanwhile we've been told that the people shouting "This is for Allah" as they slit throats wasn't....really a Muslim. Damn, they must have been Buddhists in disguise.

....so for the very last time.

Pick one of the three options.

Demonstrate he said the were not Muslim's, correct your claim accurately or leave.

Ooh let's pick the third!

 

[UKMikey]

"This sickening act has nothing to do with the Islam I know"

"Followers of a perverse ideology who murder innocent Londoners and visitors are an utter desecration of Ramadan and a rejection of the true values of Islam."

"the sick and wicked ideology of these evil extremists is no form of Islam that I recognise"

??

Is Khan saying they aren't Muslims or are bad at being Muslims?

It sounds like he's damned if he does and damned if he doesn't. If he had accepted them as true followers of the faith I suspect you'd be among the first to point the finger at him as a terrorist sympathiser for doing so.

Whaaat.

So now it's our fault for the lack of integration...?

"Poll reveals 40pc of Muslims want sharia law in UK"

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...ls-40pc-of-Muslims-want-sharia-law-in-UK.html

Your 2006 figures are out of date.

A 2016 poll for Channel 4 puts the figure at 23%, so it looks like the figure is going down as the Muslim population integrates.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...se-of-belonging-poll-homosexuality-sharia-law

 

[DLR_Mysterion]

Is Khan saying they aren't Muslims or are bad at being Muslims?

It sounds like he's damned if he does and damned if he doesn't. If he had accepted them as true followers of the faith I suspect you'd be among the first to point the finger at him for doing so.

Here's what I agree with, from a prominent Muslim:



British Islamic groups are undermining fight against terror by peddling 'myths' about Prevent campaign, says top Muslim lawyer

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4568462/Nazir-Afzal-says-groups-distorting-truth.html

 

[Scaff]

Ooh let's pick the third!

OK.

Take a week off, and should you continue in the same way when you return it will be permanent.

Create a new account to try and get around it and it will be permanent.

The AUP is not optional.