loosing the backend and resulting swerve at high speed

[menos | M6]

When loosing the backend of a car in GT5 on straight lines, due to touching a curb, loosing traction, etc… the car reacts always with excessive swerving left and right, impossible to catch.

A usual way of "catching" such out of control backend is softly backing off throttle or/ and gently braking with counter steering.

It seems impossible, to be able, to catch such a mishap in GT5.
Big difference in actual speed surprisingly also lead to similar behaviour, which seems not exactly expectable behaviour (same reaction while catching a curb at 280km/h or 120km/h).

Are there others, seeing this behavior?
Has this already been discussed?

 

[CSLACR]

When loosing the backend of a car in GT5 on straight lines, due to touching a curb, loosing traction, etc… the car reacts always with excessive swerving left and right, impossible to catch.

A usual way of "catching" such out of control backend is softly backing off throttle or/ and gently braking with counter steering.

It seems impossible, to be able, to catch such a mishap in GT5.
Big difference in actual speed surprisingly also lead to similar behaviour, which seems not exactly expectable behaviour (same reaction while catching a curb at 280km/h or 120km/h).

Are there others, seeing this behavior?
Has this already been discussed?

It's called "over-correcting".
It happens to most new drivers in real life, and is made easier with GT5 because your wheel is smaller, and the steering is a bit more sensitive.

Compared to real life, cars are wildly hard to control when doing slight-turning burnouts in GT5, mostly due to the smaller wheel, partially due to the physics engine for GT5. (not enough forward momentum from spinning tires)

 

[Track_Veteran]

Loose is to tight as lose is to win.

 

[HBR-Roadhog]

I have yet to loose one in the fashion mentioned in the OP so either you need more practice or you need to modify your tune.

I have had some issues on corner exit in high power RWD cars when in the lower gears. The Zonda-R and the McLaren F1 especially. I find that being careful on the throttle and/or short shifting cures this problem as well.

 

[calan_svc]

I agree that it's a bit exaggerated and probably due to the limited range of the wheel and GT5 physics. Being able to put the wheel into true 900* mode would probably help.

There seems to be a very fine line (more so than IRL) between a car's balance and the ability to predictably toss the back end of it around.

 

[speedy_2]

This is why you have to "feel" the car. I hate when people describe car behavior in this game as excessive. Yet, they've mostly never put a real car in anywhere near the situation they are describing in the game.

 

[LiveWire11C]

IRL, it is called a tank slapper, at least with motorcycles. You actually want to give it gas, to unload the front end. Also, try to minimize steering inputs while it is happening.

 

[Rocket Punch]

A usual way of "catching" such out of control backend is softly backing off throttle or/ and gently braking with counter steering.

It will depends on the drive layout and if the lost of rear traction is acceleration induced or deceleration induced.

What you are describing is to minimize rear traction lost for a RWD/AWD car for throttle oversteer, but not for trail throttle oversteer, trail clutch oversteer or trail brake oversteer.

 

[1Fast335i]

I don't think its that exaggerated in GT5. Next time you get it, look at the speed your going.
If I was to hit a curb wrong in my real car at 145, I'd expect some craziness. I may or my not be able to recover from it.

 

[the.hatter]

I have yet to loose one in the fashion mentioned in the OP so either you need more practice or you need to modify your tune.

I have had some issues on corner exit in high power RWD cars when in the lower gears. The Zonda-R and the McLaren F1 especially. I find that being careful on the throttle and/or short shifting cures this problem as well.

I found I had to be pretty delicate with the gas pedal in my Zonda-R 'tuned' on corner exit, but found it to be pretty reasonable. No I haven't driven a 900 hp Zonda lol, but if I ever did I don't think I could just mash the gas pedal to WOT without doing some spinning.

What I have found a little unreasonable, and this may be what the OP is pointing towards, is that if you get one wheel just slightly off track, on a curb, etc. while driving straight, and not accelerating or decelerating, some cars will violently spin around way too fast and you cannot save it by letting off throttle, counter-steering, or braking.

 

[transam1998]

It may be a bit exaggerated if you only put one wheel slightly off, but if you are overcorrecting, the physics seem just right, personally, from having to do this in real life, I don't usually spin, but do often lose track positions while getting the car back.

My (real) Cobalt SS is actually kind of tail happy if you turn into a corner with excessive speed while slowing, the car will start to oversteer, I learned to use this on a couple of the corners at my home track, I can get it to starty rotating, then, once the car is pointed where I want it, start giving throttle, the car will straighten up nicely and pull out of the corner. I am, however, screwed if I fail to get the car down into 2nd gear, which I have done once, the car fishtailed several times, then went around, off into the grass, then went around the other way before coming to a dead stop in the middle of the racing line, pointed sideways and stalled. A whole field of cars I had just passed, with my friend in his Golf turbo leading the way were coming up on me at 80 mph. thankfully everyone avoided me.

My Firebird with 500hp is obviously very oversteer happy. :-)

My point, when I get into this position in GT-5, it does feel natural to me, and I have been in this position IRL, and I can usually correct without even thinking about it.

 

[HBR-Roadhog]

I had in real life a 71 Firebird modded with a 455 Rocket engine in it pushing around 335hp and 560lbs torque.

You could not go above 35% throttle at under 50 mph even in a straight line without loosing traction in this beast and on corner exit would spin you out in a heartbeat if you were to heavy on the peddle.

When the road was wet even at 70mph in high gear 50% throttle would cause the car to break traction on a straight.

All in all you had to feel the car and know it's limits to drive it safely.

 

[AgentGT]

Fiddle with the suspension if you can, some of the cars seem more sensitive to others to an incorrect setup.

 

[sukerkin]

Aye, tho' there is merit in the posts above that mention gentleness on the inputs, the Proceed to the Location of the Crash physics is back in GT . It went away in GT4 but has clearly been lurking ready to re-emerge.

The problem is that PD have implemented a 'system' to stop abuse of the AI cars and to simulate going beyond the limits of grip - you'll see it most often if you WOT or lock the brakes. The tyre icons on the bottom left of the screen flash red for the wheels that have lost grip and they stay that way for what seems like an eternity (a second or less ) during which time those wheels are not contributing.

Sadly, getting clouted by the AI or putting a wheel in the grass normally ends up with you nose in to the barrier with no hope of recovery whilst the AI train slams into you one by one .

Happily, this only being a simulator (of sorts) you don't end up dead .

 

[Nuck81]

This is why you have to "feel" the car. I hate when people describe car behavior in this game as excessive. Yet, they've mostly never put a real car in anywhere near the situation they are describing in the game.

Do you hate it when guys act like "Elitist" on the Internet too?

 

[SavageEvil]

If you are using the wheel and are familiar with the feeling of impending grip loss you can usually catch this quickly. When i first experienced this I was like are you serous, this is completely impossible to catch. Then I had to do that AMG driving, and that SLS gets tail happy when you drive it hard, but I experienced the same thing and when I pulled my car out of it and formed a decent controllable drift, I was grinning ear to ear. Now I am really good at reacting to these events, on race tires it's a bit harder to read as those tires give up the grip hella fast when they are about to lose it. But street tires, you have more response time as the loss of grip isn't anywhere near as sudden. Keep playing and you'll eventually build up an awareness to it. This is what driving is all about, awareness. Aware of what can occur when you push the car into corners, when you push the braking limit...all about awareness. OP don't worry about it, you'll soon get used to it, IRL things tend to play out a little differently as not so faint of heart individuals adrenaline kicks in and things tend to seem to slow down and your mind processes things at an increased rate while you try to save yourself from serious harm.

 

[transam1998]

This is why you have to "feel" the car. I hate when people describe car behavior in this game as excessive. Yet, they've mostly never put a real car in anywhere near the situation they are describing in the game.

Here, here, I wonder how many people who complain about the "ragged edge" physics even have drivers licenses, let alone have taken a powerful car to the "ragged edge".

I have seen complainers about how tailhappy the Lotus Elise is, I have never driven one, but, if you watch road tests, one of the comments about the early Elise was how tail happy it was. Later on, Lotus started fitting smaller tires to the front, to make it understeer more.

Someone complained about the unrealistic fishtailing of the Murcialag LP 670, I believe Jeremy Clarkston drove one on top gear and mentioned what a tailhappy beast that car was.

Someone else complained about the crappy fake gearing in the Ferrari F40. I have to admit, when I first drove it, I was like, Huh?. I looked it up and found the gearing is correct, production F40s had some crazy rear end gearing that allowed them to reach 200+ mph in 4th.

I'm guessing, if you have a question about a car's realism, you can find some information to back it up. So far, everything I have read, GT-5 has gotten right.

 

[CSLACR]

This is why you have to "feel" the car. I hate when people describe car behavior in this game as excessive. Yet, they've mostly never put a real car in anywhere near the situation they are describing in the game.

What makes you so sure of this?
While you're explaining that, also do tell why IRL cars ALWAYS - flat road or not, will swerve slightly to one side or other when spinning the tires off the line, (FWD OR RWD) and yet this only happens slightly in GT5 only when on a large/steep hill?
Please do tell.

TransAm98 - You should be able to tell us also?

 

[transam1998]

If you are using the wheel and are familiar with the feeling of impending grip loss you can usually catch this quickly. When i first experienced this I was like are you serous, this is completely impossible to catch. Then I had to do that AMG driving, and that SLS gets tail happy when you drive it hard, but I experienced the same thing and when I pulled my car out of it and formed a decent controllable drift, I was grinning ear to ear. Now I am really good at reacting to these events, on race tires it's a bit harder to read as those tires give up the grip hella fast when they are about to lose it. But street tires, you have more response time as the loss of grip isn't anywhere near as sudden. Keep playing and you'll eventually build up an awareness to it. This is what driving is all about, awareness. Aware of what can occur when you push the car into corners, when you push the braking limit...all about awareness. OP don't worry about it, you'll soon get used to it, IRL things tend to play out a little differently as not so faint of heart individuals adrenaline kicks in and things tend to seem to slow down and your mind processes things at an increased rate while you try to save yourself from serious harm.

You are correct, street tires are designed to flex and howl and give the driver lots of warning that something bad will happen if they keep going.

Race tires are designed for maximum grip, they don't make a lot of noise and have stiff sidewalls, and when they go, you better be ready for it.

I admit, I don't have much exp in a car with competition slicks, only driven on a coupls of times, but that was my limited experience. :-)

 

[transam1998]

What makes you so sure of this?
While you're explaining that, also do tell why IRL cars ALWAYS - flat road or not, will swerve slightly to one side or other when spinning the tires off the line, (FWD OR RWD) and yet this only happens slightly in GT5 only when on a large/steep hill?
Please do tell.

TransAm98 - You should be able to tell us also?

Not always, a lot of street cars don't have Posi, so you will get the one tire fire and the car will go mostly straight. Again, this is not always the case, nothing is certain in automobiles with physics, tires, road surface, hey, the diff didn't lock that time, etc. Street cars are random.

Only after I put a Moser 12 bolt with Eaton Posi in my Firebird, did my car start to sway around like you say, even then, if I start straight and keep it straight, it's only a slight wiggle.

 

[CSLACR]

Not always, a lot of street cars don't have Posi, so you will get the one tire fire and the car will go mostly straight. Again, this is not always the case, nothing is certain in automobiles with physics, tires, road surface, hey, the diff didn't lock that time, etc. Street cars are random.

Only after I put a Moser 12 bolt with Eaton Posi in it, did my car start to sway around like you say, even then, if I start straight and keep it straight, it's only a slight wiggle.

Maybe yours can't spin as much as a 93 Formula then?
Lack of posi generally makes it worse.
Tell me, what happens when the right wheel is doing 90% of the pushing?
Also, you mentioned the "slight wiggle". Does this happen in GT5?

 

[transam1998]

Maybe yours can't spin as much as a 93 Formula then?
Lack of posi generally makes it worse.
Tell me, what happens when the right wheel is doing 90% of the pushing?
Also, you mentioned the "slight wiggle". Does this happen in GT5?

Yes to your last question

I can't answer the 2nd, because my diff, and other mechanicals out there, are either locked or not, there is no percentage

Anything with a percentage of lock is designed to make the car more stable.

Lack of Posi does not make it worse, go to the drag strip and watch someone do a 1 wheel burnout for a 1/8th mile and see how straight the car stays.

I've never driven a 93 Formula, but they have significantly less power than my 500hp 98 Firebird (275). but, even so, I think I do spin less now.. :-)

 

[calan_svc]

Lack of posi generally makes it worse.
Tell me, what happens when the right wheel is doing 90% of the pushing?

In GT5, I find that the more you go towards full diff lockup (full posi) in a FR car, the more pronounced the snap oversteer becomes. In fact, it almost feels like torque steer in a FF car. There doesn't seem to be a case where one driving wheel is actually propelling the car as there would be IRL. It seems to be either one wheel spinning, or both wheels spinning/propelling.

EDIT: I should mention that I noticed this effect ^ is highly dependent on the car's power level.

I also find that the lack of FFB just on either side of max slip angle causes me some issues. There just doesn't seem to be enough feedback to let you know when you have crossed into that gray area.

The physics aren't horrible though by any stretch.

 

[HBR-Roadhog]

My 71 Firebird with the 455 had the traction lock rear and it would lock both wheels off the line and almost always came off straight or with a very slight wiggle. My 85 Transam on the other hand almost always had the rear shift by a foot or so off the line.

 

[transam1998]

In GT5, I find that the more you go towards full diff lockup (full posi) in a FR car, the more pronounced the snap oversteer becomes. In fact, it almost feels like torque steer in a FF car. There doesn't seem to be a case where one driving wheel is actually propelling the car as there would be IRL. It seems to be either one wheel spinning, or both wheels spinning/propelling.

I also find that the lack of FFB just on either side of max slip angle causes me some issues. There just doesn't seem to be enough feedback to let you know when you have crossed into that gray area.

The physics aren't horrible though by any stretch.

I, also feel the physics are quite good, especially for a console game. :-)

The locking diff sounds correct. I can't adjust my real life one easily, so I set it for street use and drive it like that, but, the more you lock it, the more tendancy it will have to keep both wheels spinning in a corner instead of one. if they are both spinning, you are definitely going into overtsteer, if only one is spinning, you still have one tire glued to the road keeping you on track..

I have never driven a FWD with Posi IRL, mine has a standard diff, so I have no experienced answer on whether torque steer imroves with a locking diff.

In GT Legends, I can hardly drive the 427 Cobra unless I take some lock out of the rear, or it is all over the place with oversteer, I also have to tighten the rear sway bar a touch.

 

[SavageEvil]

In GT5, I find that the more you go towards full diff lockup (full posi) in a FR car, the more pronounced the snap oversteer becomes. In fact, it almost feels like torque steer in a FF car. There doesn't seem to be a case where one driving wheel is actually propelling the car as there would be IRL. It seems to be either one wheel spinning, or both wheels spinning/propelling.

I also find that the lack of FFB just on either side of max slip angle causes me some issues. There just doesn't seem to be enough feedback to let you know when you have crossed into that gray area.

The physics aren't horrible though by any stretch.

Actually, when I was racing last night online, I was driving the Castrol Tom's Supra and that is a stock race car, I spun out and then got back on the road and as I took off, the car peeled out and I could see that there was one tire mark coming out from the right rear tire. Traction control was off, only ABS activated. It is rare for a car to have both wheels spinning at the same time, I think Audi's generally spin either left front and right rear or right front and left rear, whichever gains traction it supplies power.

FFB somehow seems to have been toned down since the update(1.05), I keep mine at 10 on the G25, but now it feels a little weaker now. Then again it could be the cars I'm using at the moment. The McLaren F1 i haven't driven in a while that was a wild animal with FFB, will test it later to see.

Wheel hop coupled with steering inputs at the wrong time can induce squirrel like swerving, every rear driven car has one wheel powering hence why you will get squirrely when you grab some dirt or grass and throttle on corners even on straights.

 

[transam1998]

My 71 Firebird with the 455 had the traction lock rear and it would lock both wheels off the line and almost always came off straight or with a very slight wiggle. My 85 Transam on the other hand almost always had the rear shift by a foot or so off the line.

I got to drive one of those, it had a 4 spd manual, felt heavy, but was a very fun car to drive. Lots of torque :-)

 

[CSLACR]

Yes to your last question

I can't answer the 2nd, because my diff, and other mechanicals out there, are either locked or not, there is no percentage

Anything with a percentage of lock is designed to make the car more stable.

Lack of Posi does not make it worse, go to the drag strip and watch someone do a 1 wheel burnout for a 1/8th mile and see how straight the car stays.

I've never driven a 93 Formula, but they have significantly less power than my 500hp 98 Firebird (275). but, even so, I think I do spin less now.. :-)

I've watched one wheel burnouts fishtail, but generally what they'll do is simply pull right. That said, the driver (especially when drag racing) will steer the car straight.
No, in GT5 my cars do not "scoot over" just straight as an arrow, unless I'm on a hill or some banking.
And notice, with your upgraded diff, up to lock, it stays straighter? Now if your on a hill, a higher lock will cause more sliding.
FYI 93's have posi, just not enough to keep the right wheel from spinning a bit more.

In GT5, I find that the more you go towards full diff lockup (full posi) in a FR car, the more pronounced the snap oversteer becomes. In fact, it almost feels like torque steer in a FF car. There doesn't seem to be a case where one driving wheel is actually propelling the car as there would be IRL. It seems to be either one wheel spinning, or both wheels spinning/propelling.

I also find that the lack of FFB just on either side of max slip angle causes me some issues. There just doesn't seem to be enough feedback to let you know when you have crossed into that gray area.

The physics aren't horrible though by any stretch.

That sounds accurate. If both wheels have to spin at close to the same rate, or god forbid the same rate, snap over-steer will become astounding.
I chalk the "feedback" issue to the lack of all the senses you can't use without a full-simulation cockpit. No G-forces mainly, along with vibrations and sounds that real life has yet to see a rival for. (In driving simulation)

My 71 Firebird with the 455 had the traction lock rear and it would lock both wheels off the line and almost always came off straight or with a very slight wiggle. My 85 Transam on the other hand almost always had the rear shift by a foot or so off the line.

Exactly my point.
And where is this back-end scoot in GT5?
Also, keep in mind what you did when it scooted, which is naturally (usually done by the wheel almost entire by itself) counter-steering it very slightly.

Also with FWD, it's not uncommon to pull dead right off the line, probably more pronounced than what RWD does, generally referred to as "torque-steer". Simpy non-existent in GT5.
I love GT5, and the physics are pretty darn good. But they still have plenty of room for improvement.

Actually, when I was racing last night online, I was driving the Castrol Tom's Supra and that is a stock race car, I spun out and then got back on the road and as I took off, the car peeled out and I could see that there was one tire mark coming out from the right rear tire. Traction control was off, only ABS activated. It is rare for a car to have both wheels spinning at the same time, I think Audi's generally spin either left front and right rear or right front and left rear, whichever gains traction it supplies power.

Nope. Your Castrol Supra most certainly has limited slip, and should spin both tires nearly equally at almost all times. And that goes for anything with a decent limited slip, because that's what "limited slip" means. The differential will put more power to whichever wheel is spinning less.

 

[RC45]

IRL, it is called a tank slapper, at least with motorcycles. You actually want to give it gas, to unload the front end. Also, try to minimize steering inputs while it is happening.

Yeah - with a bike you want to 'ride it out" even loosen your grip ont he bars and let the modern chassis of the sport bike carry you through, but in a high HP FR car you really dont want to just "stay in it" you need to pedal your way out of the situation to keep out the ditch.

 

[VooDoo-Reverend]

I had in real life a 71 Firebird modded with a 455 Rocket engine in it pushing around 335hp and 560lbs torque.

You put an Olds 455 into a firebird, and it had 335 hp and put out 560 ft/lbs...? I've never seen a big block with that kind of power curve...