Making FWD Cars Competitive With RWD Cars...

[Kent]

The question is:
How can we even out the competition when FF is used amongst RWD competitors?

I'd like to hear any thoughts you all can come up with.
My feeling as of right now...
Even PWR, FF on Racing tires, FR, MR, 4WD, and RR, all on Sports tires.

What do you all think?

PS. this subject is the child of a spot race idea yet to be executed.

 

[OZZYGT]

I don't know about 4WDs and RRs though, they don't have that kind of advantage over FF.




Ciao!

 

[Kent]

Well, the 4WD do have an advantage in my opinion since they are so much less likely to lose traction on acceleration (wheelspin is a big issue in FFs).
Likewise, the RR get some great grip and don't have much of a hard time maintaining traction. Plus, the RR doesn't have the understeer of some 4WD'ers, so I'd say RR has an advantage as well.

FFs seem to break traction at every corner unless you're using TCS (which is a huge no-no in FFs). FFs have traction problems at almost every level of tuning but in my target area of 280hp there is no way for the FFs to match the traction and control of the RWD cars.

So with that said, once again, I ask the question...
How do we even out FF and all the others?
Can we or do we have to make FF-Only races?

 

[Leonidae]

I found out that a Civic with about 200bhp, racing suspension, modded drivetrain and 1.5 LSD has great traction when getting out of corners and it even turns decently.
So, I guess that with some clever adjustmends on fully customizable LSD, an FF car could handle under 300bhp pretty nicely. Tyre wear would be naturally an issue, since the front wheels are multitasking most of the time, but it can be repaired with mixed tyre compounds.

Thus, I say that FF can be competitive against others, despite small disadvantages at some areas.

 

[diospen]

Well, the 4WD do have an advantage in my opinion since they are so much less likely to lose traction on acceleration (wheelspin is a big issue in FFs).


I can't answer your question, but you just answered one of mine. I have never understood why the tiny Mini Marcos (which is FF) comes with a default TCS of 7, when far more powerful sports cars only have a default of 5.

It still surprises me though. I always switch all aids off and use N1 tyres, but I don't get much wheelspin with the Marcos, so 7 looks like overkill to me.

What I do get, of course, is a huge amount of understeer.

 

[Ev0 4 drifter]

try a honda city turbo, fully modified, it can thrash saleen s7's, ford gt's and pagani zonda's.

 

[-Cheezman-]

FWD will always have a disadvantage over all others. That is the front wheels do everything. If you look, not many race cars are FWD, that being said, there are FWD race cars out there, but a lot of the times, they only run with other FWD cars... unless it is amateur racing where anyone can enter any car.

A RWD car, the rear wheels see driving torque, and the front wheels turn the car, an AWD (NOT TO BE CONFUSED WITH 4WD) car uses the front wheels when needed, but applies limited torque at all times, but otherwise, the rear end sees most driving torque and the front steers. This sets a perfect balance between the wheels, which is something a FWD car has a hard time doing since everything is dependent on those two front wheels.

MR is arguably the best racing set up, I disagree, I find that FR's performance is better than MR cars, but that's me. RR cars are a PITA, with all their weight at the very back of the car, you get this nasty problem of the rear end wanting to swing around on every corner, and you need to be careful.

Can a FWD compete with a RWD? Sure, but it comes down to the driver.

This is only my opinion, if you disagree with me, fine, but please, don't flame me, because, I really don't care.

 

[Ev0 4 drifter]

This is only my opinion, if you disagree with me, fine, but please, don't flame me, because, I really don't care.

you shouldn't be worried about getting flamed for adding your opinion, everyone is entitled to one. this goes for everyone, don't be afraid to add your opinion.

 

[OZZYGT]

FWD will always have a disadvantage over all others. That is the front wheels do everything. If you look, not many race cars are FWD, that being said, there are FWD race cars out there, but a lot of the times, they only run with other FWD cars... unless it is amateur racing where anyone can enter any car.

A RWD car, the rear wheels see driving torque, and the front wheels turn the car, an AWD (NOT TO BE CONFUSED WITH 4WD) car uses the front wheels when needed, but applies limited torque at all times, but otherwise, the rear end sees most driving torque and the front steers. This sets a perfect balance between the wheels, which is something a FWD car has a hard time doing since everything is dependent on those two front wheels.

MR is arguably the best racing set up, I disagree, I find that FR's performance is better than MR cars, but that's me. RR cars are a PITA, with all their weight at the very back of the car, you get this nasty problem of the rear end wanting to swing around on every corner, and you need to be careful.

Can a FWD compete with a RWD? Sure, but it comes down to the driver.

This is only my opinion, if you disagree with me, fine, but please, don't flame me, because, I really don't care.

No need for a mercy call there buddy.

The toughest part is...to make FF as competitive as the other drivetrain types, which is the thread's main topic. I think the tyres would help, but Ken, you might have to continue making races for FF only...




Ciao!

 

[dudejo]

the Honda cars ironically do well because their engines run small displacements.

because of that, torque is too low to spin the sheels easily making it easier to drive hard.

but that's it. FWD is good for cheap stability but it trades off performance and potential.

if you want both you need a 4WD.

the best cars, modded or not, are all RWD in some way, shape or form.

 

[Kent]

Well, where to begin...
I suppose at the bottom and I'll work my way up.

dudejo, you're right about Hondas doing well, but I think you're wrong about the displacement being a factor... Rather, I think it's just a matter of the Hondas not producing torque on the low end like what you find in a TRD Celica (which is a 1.8L wheel spin monster if you're not careful).

cheezman, nice post but I disagree with you regarding the types of racing you find FF cars doing in real life. BTCC and "Speed" SCCA touring car racing both have many FFs that are highly competitive.
But other than that, I found your post to be quality. 👍 (+rep)
Oh, and I disagree about the driver thing as well... Unless you put the very best driver in a FF and only an "OK" driver in the RWD, you'll always have RWD winning the race (in GT4 when the cars are on even terms).

diospen, glad I could help.

Now to address the subject of the thread once more...
Who has an interest in evening out FWD and RWD and how do you suggest we go about evening them out?

I still feel like Racing Tires for FF and Sports Tires for RWD would be the most appropriate.

 

[-Cheezman-]

What I was saying about FWD in racing is even with BTCC and SCCA, RWD is still the more dominate layout for track cars. As all your posts clearly state.

Now, making them even is a different story. There are many different ways to make a FWD even with a RWD, but it usually ends up being a handicapped race with so many limitations on the other that it becomes almost boring and losses excitement.

The first thing to "even" them out is limit horsepower and torque to a certain amount, say 250HP max. Then something like allowing the FWD to use a softer tire on the front wheels than the RWD, to make up for a loss of traction. Even with those, you still need to factor in weight, length, even suspension limitations.

@Ozzy, it wasn't a mercy call, it was more or less a "I simply don't care". People have a nasty problem of taking everything you say, and twisting it to to a negative post and then flaming you.

 

[Kent]

I searched aol/google and found this site on the first page, eventually I found this exact page- a schedule w/ results for each race of the BTCC in 2006.
BTCC seems to be very FF oriented.
Moving on though...

I've been testing and in the process remembered something... The Track!
That's going to play a part in this, right? So when or if any of you test this, please test with a short track of some kind.

Any way, I ran my usual match up for this comparison (as this is all still in pursuit of a "yet to be determined" spot race).
Ended up finding that S3 tires on RWD vs R3 tires on FWD may result in a RWD victory on small flowing tracks ("Even" pwr and hp). Makes me wonder if even more tire should go on the FF. Maybe "Sports Softs" vs "Racing Softs" would work well?

Well, untill next time,
-

Edit:
With more testing and a different FF, the FF beat the MR. The FF was running about 20hp more than the previous FF and showed a worse pwr by a small margin (so the car was heavier and only slightly more powerful).
Suprised me to see the FF pull a "winning" lap so quickly as well. Now I suppose a different RWD test subject would be a good idea. 💡

 

[-Cheezman-]

BTCC seems to be very FF oriented, but it is only one of MANY different racing groups. But, this discussion should end, because, it is off-topic.

As for FF tuning, my first goal was to cut out as much FWD related understeer as possible (settings will follow soon), I did that, and using some good steering technique, the car is very drivable, and is good competition for others, being a Civic Hatchback in all, plus it is only pushing about 210HP, so it is not over powering the front wheels by any means.

 

[Deathclown66]

FF: R1
FR: S1
4WD: S3 (except the Skyline really deserves S2's, due to it's seemingly RWD handling)
MR: S1
RR: S1

 

[FuzzyDogSlayer]

Well my take on this is that...

Every car is different and if you're trying to get the cars to be evenly matched then you might aswell give everyone the same car!
Personally, I think that the guy that said it's down to the driver is on to something, but then again I guess you're right about the unfair advantages, but have you considered playing around with a different setting, like for example instead of playing with the tyres; you give FF's a stage 1 turbo or a racing exhaust?

 

[Famine]

This article always makes for fun reading on these issues. I've no clue how it'd apply to GT4 though.

 

[Scaff]

My 2p (not 2cents - I'm far too English for that).

The very first problem we have is that GT4's physics engine is biased against FWD cars to a degree, they have a far bigger problem getting power to the road than they should, something that is quite clear if you have tried any form of 0-30/60/100 time comparisons for them. So a slight tyre bias for FWD cars could be in line, with that in mind the following piece I put together may be of interest, as it does put some figures to the differences between tyre types.

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=71113


Famine's linked piece does highlight one very important area, and that's common suspension tuning methods to 'assist' with FWD cars. The most common method being one of deliberately making the rear of the car unstable, that piece discusses using it, its common in the BTCC and I have used it in quite a few FWD set-ups myself. It does normally require (and allow) quite an aggressive driving style, but is worth a try.

The following thread (that looked at recreating BTCC cars in GT4) may be of interest in regard to set-up.

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=80721

With the following being the set-up and mods I used for a 'BTCC' Integra.

Power - 271 bhp (1 over I know)
Weight = 1064 + 86 ballast = 1150

Weight Reduction 2 + 86 ballast
R1 Tyres
FC gearbox
Triple Clutch
Racing Flywheel
1 way LSD
Semi-race exhaust
Brake Balance Controller
Racing Brakes
Racing Chip
Engine Balance
Port Polish
Oil Change
Big fat wing

I've gone for R1 tyres (which I beleive would be closer - but hey its personal), a 1-way LSd (which IIRC the regs do allow) and full racing suspension (which certainly is allowed).

Settings are as follows

Spring Rates 7.4 / 11.0
Ride Height 86 / 91
Bound 4 / 5
Rebound 5 / 6
Camber 3 / 1.2
Toe 0 / +2
Stab. 1 / 5

Ballast +86 (to bring the weight up to the 1150)

BBC 5 / 3

Downforce 25 / 16

Gbox - Left at default for Grand Valley Speedway (test location).

And the real things in action



Regards

Scaff

 

[-Cheezman-]

Scaff hit the nail on the head so to speak. But I found that the one-way actually had a negative effect on performance, and that the car handled much better with the stock differential... For a Honda Civic EK, though.

But making the rear of the car unstable is the same method I used.

 

[Scaff]

Scaff hit the nail on the head so to speak. But I found that the one-way actually had a negative effect on performance, and that the car handled much better with the stock differential... For a Honda Civic EK, though.

But making the rear of the car unstable is the same method I used.

The diff does very much depend on the car in question, I found the DC2 & DC5 Integra's to be much happier with the 1-way rather than stock. Its just a case of trial and error.

👍

Scaff

 

[PARAGON GT]

I think that another major factor will be what track is chosen. Short tracks with a lot of turns will make the FF cars a handful to keep in line. Even with racing tires.

I have a FTO that can hold its own for the most part in the professional hall.
I believe that its sitting around 280 hp and runs on sport tires. The back end dances a little, but not much though.
I just ran it in Seoul/Clubman Cup. Came in second to a RX-7. I thought I did pretty well though. The RX-7 was 6.5 seconds ahead of me, and I was 15 seconds ahead of the rest of the pack.