Manual Transmission Technique (3-pedals)

[Danoff]

The post above has reminded me, actually. I was watching this video the other day:

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Now I know how fashionable it is to pick faults in driving technique on the internet, but the driver's heel and toe technique is... frustrating to watch.

Notice it? On every single downshift? WAM...WAAAAAAAOOOOOOO. The rev blip is too quick, so when he releases the clutch the road speed still drags the engine revs up. WAM...WAAAAAAAOOOOOOOO. Now giving him the benefit of the doubt, it's presumably running a light flywheel so the revs rise and fall quickly. But that's where you compensate for it as a driver, by either making the blip later before you engage the clutch, or by giving the gas a firmer or longer press so the revs are high enough to meet the output shaft speed before the clutch re-engages.

I don't expect everyone to get it right all the time (certainly not myself, and not even professional racing drivers - if there are any series still using manual transmissions these days - NASCAR maybe?) but I know I mentally kick myself every time I misjudge a heel-toe blip and get the same awkward non-rev-match, so I couldn't help but wince at that video.

It's all about practice, ultimately. If there's any solid reason for heel-toe on the street it's that it's actually quite easy to practice, almost all the time. By the time you then get on a track doing it with a reasonable success rate will hopefully then be second-nature...

Yea that's actually pretty odd. By the time I got to 4 minutes I could really see the pattern. At first I was like... man that's kinda picky, but as it goes on yea he uses more clutch than I would expect a pro to use for those downshifts. You can hear it in the engine. His heel-toe is just not generous enough, or like you say, he needs to move the timing of it later into the turn. He's a way better driver than I am though, so it's hard for me to really go after him.

So he's doing something super weird in that first 4 minutes that I'd love to have explained. He's left foot braking while on the throttle and headed straight (check around 3:40). It's very quick, he just dabs the brake for a moment for absolutely no apparent reason. Any ideas?

 

[homeforsummer]

So he's doing something super weird in that first 4 minutes that I'd love to have explained. He's left foot braking while on the throttle and headed straight. It's very quick, he just dabs the brake for a moment for absolutely no apparent reason. Any ideas?

I've seen this quite a bit, though it's also not universal among drivers.

I think there are a few reasons for it. One is to ensure there's pressure in the system before approaching a braking zone - i.e. so you've got time to do something if the pedal goes to the floor. Another is also to ensure there's pressure in the system, but for response, so when you hit the brakes they bite immediately.

 

[Danoff]

I've seen this quite a bit, though it's also not universal among drivers.

I think there are a few reasons for it. One is to ensure there's pressure in the system before approaching a braking zone - i.e. so you've got time to do something if the pedal goes to the floor. Another is also to ensure there's pressure in the system, but for response, so when you hit the brakes they bite immediately.

That's some advanced kung fu.

 

[WheelmanSteve]

Another really fun thread! I'm one of those rare and endangered 3-pedal Yanks. Believe it or not, my first car was a 1987 Olds Calais with a 5-speed stick. I think they made like 4 of them. 2.5l Iron Duke, maybe 110 BHP? Traded for an 86 8v Scirocco, then a 94 GMC Sonoma 2WD shortbed, with the 4.3 TBI V6 and a 5 speed. With a K&N, Edelbrock manifold, and a Gibson cat-back, that truck was a riot. I had it set up as a street machine, with Tokico shocks and H-rated rubber, but stock wheels and ride height. Total sleeper. I have a 2012 Mazda 3S hatch now, and it's a great driving car. Except for the Olds, I ran every one of these cars into the mid-high 100k mile ranges on their original clutches, with no issues, before selling or trading them in, so some of us over here know how to do it. I'll never drive an auto if I can help it...

 

[Danoff]

I'll never drive an auto if I can help it...

You're missing out. Manual definitely has its place, but auto can be a fantastic driving experience as well.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

That's some advanced kung fu.

I've heard it's also to "set the pads", whatever that means.

Speaking of kung fu...





Love the sound of a 2-stroke Detroit Diesel.

 

[Roo]

So he's doing something super weird in that first 4 minutes that I'd love to have explained. He's left foot braking while on the throttle and headed straight (check around 3:40). It's very quick, he just dabs the brake for a moment for absolutely no apparent reason. Any ideas?

I've seen this quite a bit, though it's also not universal among drivers.

I think there are a few reasons for it. One is to ensure there's pressure in the system before approaching a braking zone - i.e. so you've got time to do something if the pedal goes to the floor. Another is also to ensure there's pressure in the system, but for response, so when you hit the brakes they bite immediately.

The drivers in the Supercars championship in Australia do this. It's to prevent something called pad knock-back, of which one of the causes can be running over rumble strips. The vibrations can shake a caliper piston further back in to the caliper, so the quick dab of the brakes whilst on the throttle "resets" the piston back against the face of the pad, ready for the next braking zone.

 

[homeforsummer]

The drivers in the Supercars championship in Australia do this. It's to prevent something called pad knock-back, of which one of the causes can be running over rumble strips. The vibrations can shake a caliper piston further back in to the caliper, so the quick dab of the brakes whilst on the throttle "resets" the piston back against the face of the pad, ready for the next braking zone.

I'd heard of that, but chose not to mention it as I didn't fully know the mechanics of it.

I find the concept odd though. I mean, obviously it's a thing that happens as there's all this material on it, but it seems weird the pistons can retract enough to be problematic given there's still hydraulic pressure in the braking system. You'd think that an incompressible fluid would prevent the pistons retracting enough to really be noticeable.

I suppose the discussion is appropriate for this thread as tapping the pedal to bring the brakes back could be considered an advanced technique. Personally, I've never noticed it when driving on track - when the pedal response starts to go it's usually brake fade that's the culprit.

 

[TheCracker]

I'd heard of that, but chose not to mention it as I didn't fully know the mechanics of it.

I find the concept odd though. I mean, obviously it's a thing that happens as there's all this material on it, but it seems weird the pistons can retract enough to be problematic given there's still hydraulic pressure in the braking system. You'd think that an incompressible fluid would prevent the pistons retracting enough to really be noticeable.

I suppose the discussion is appropriate for this thread as tapping the pedal to bring the brakes back could be considered an advanced technique. Personally, I've never noticed it when driving on track - when the pedal response starts to go it's usually brake fade that's the culprit.

It's quite common on older live-axle track cars where there's lateral movement on the axel and the floating drive-shafts/half-shafts within and the centrifugal force can cause the pads to retract. I don't think it's a massive issue in historic motorsport as most live-axle cars will be running drums on the rear and brakes are generally forward biased anyway.

 

[HoseHead]

What are your thoughts on skipping gears?
The car I just purchased has 6 gears (instead of 5, like I'm used to) and the ratios seems so close together. I constantly find myself upshifting through all the gears and it seems that I'm spending more time with the clutch dis-engaged than having it actually engaged.....
If I were to skip a gear, it would probably be 5th. In other words I would go from 4th gear directly to 6th once I've reached my desired cruising speed. I would also double-clutch (letting the clutch out for a split second while the shift knob is in the neutral position) when skipping 5th.
Any thoughts/advise would be appreciated.

 

[Tornado]

I practically never go through gears sequentially.
On the Corvette (which has the skipshift disabled) I almost always go 1-3-6, 1-4-6 or 1-5-6; or 2-5-6 (depending how slow I was starting out from and how fast I'm going up to. If I'm rolling through an intersection at anything over 10mph I don't bother going to first, and I don't bother with 6th unless it's a 50 zone or more). On the Volkswagen unless I'm absolutely hammering it I always go 1-4-5, 1-5 or 1-2-5.


It depends more on your engine characteristics than anything I think. The Volkswagen and Corvette both have broad torque curves with freely revving engines and relatively light weight. The Corvette in particular will happily cruise around all day in fifth at 30mph at like 900rpm. Just make sure you know how fast you can shift vs how much the RPMs drop when you're on the clutch, so you don't skip a shift and the RPM has dropped a grand below or whatever from where it would be when you're in the gear you wanted to skip to.

 

[Crash]

I was thinking about this and I'm curious, when you park your manual transmission car, do you:

a) Park with only hand brake on (car not in gear)
b) Park with only transmission in gear (no hand brake)
c) Park with both hand brake on and transmission in gear

And do you stick to one method consistently or do you sometimes change which method you use to park? And why? Is there one method or way that is the "right" method?

 

[Tornado]

Out of gear with the handbrake on, always.

 

[FPV MIC]

I was thinking about this and I'm curious, when you park your manual transmission car, do you:

a) Park with only hand brake on (car not in gear)
b) Park with only transmission in gear (no hand brake)
c) Park with both hand brake on and transmission in gear

And do you stick to one method consistently or do you sometimes change which method you use to park? And why? Is there one method or way that is the "right" method?

A and C.

C is most common for me and is far better/safer if you're parking on an incline/decline (also with the front wheels turned to the kerb).

A, for me, has been reserved for turbo diesel trucks with a turbo timer... but only if parked on level ground.

There's one other situation I haven't personally come across yet but could possibly be best suited for A... manual with electronic handbrake.

 

[nawfal]

A and C when normally driving, B when I'm on the track since there's the possibility of fusing the pads to the rotor after a hot track session.

 

[homeforsummer]

C is most common for me and is far better/safer if you're parking on an incline/decline (also with the front wheels turned to the kerb).

All of this, basically.

Exception is in my garage, which has a perfectly flat surface, so I tend to just leave the car in gear only. My cars tend to be reasonably old (a couple of decades at least) and handbrake cables stretch pretty easily, so I minimise their use where possible so they work when I really need them! Ditto on track, as in the post above.

Always assumed in automatics you could get away with leaving them in park only, but actually heard that's pretty stressful on the parking pawl in the transmission - it's basically just a small notch of metal and having that support the entire weight of a car, on an incline particularly, isn't that great for it.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

My parking spot is dead flat, so almost always A. If I'm parking on an incline, I'll throw it in first as a safety measure.

Back when I had my Mustang (1991 5 Liter, 5 Speed manual) I, for whatever reason, would leave it in 4th instead of first when parking it. On one occasion I did not also set the handbrake. I was standing outside the car and noticed it was rolling....at a rate of like 1" per minute. First gear after that.

 

[wfooshee]

I park in neutral and handbrake on. I also check the gear shift is in neutral before starting.

As for driving, all these "techniques" and "proper procedures" for shifting as you slow down. My own thoughts:

NEVER downshift except to a gear you're about to need. You don't need to use the engine to help brake. Brake pads are cheaper than clutches and throwout bearings, and MUCH easier to replace.

If you're coming to a red light or stop sign, coast in the gear you're in, or go to neutral and then leave the clutch pedal up until ready to take first. There is no purpose to grabbing every gear on the way down, just because you like the sound of the engine coasting. With the clutch out and in neutral there is none of this excessive speed on any shaft. The output shaft is spinning at road speed, i.e. stopped, and the input shaft is spinning at engine speed, i.e. idle. When you're ready to go, depress clutch and shift to first and drive. Do NOT hold the clutch pedal down while in gear, unless you like buying throwout bearings. Do NOT slip the clutch to hold a hill unless you like buying clutch discs.

If you're approaching a turn or curve and you need a lower gear and will not be stopping, heel-and-toe down to the gear you need, while braking. If you're in fifth and will need second, brake until the car is slow enough to take second, then shift, and accelerate out the curve. Again, no need at all for all the intermediate gears. An exception, maybe, if your car has ultra-wide ratios, like 1st is done at 22 and 6th won't work until 75 or 80; not many of those on the street...

Do NOT downshift by allowing the engine to fall to idle and using the clutch to bring it back to speed. If you don't know how to heel-and-toe, LEARN! If you refuse to heel and toe, don't downshift until you're ready to accelerate, or go to neutral, and then downshift, again when you can use the throttle with your only-one-pedal-per-foot driving.

I don't usually skip gears on the way up, but once I'm done accelerating, I'll skip from third to fifth, just because I never needed fourth. This is a Miata, not a beefy, torquey Corvette V-8. I need all the gears on the way up.

In an emergency, you can get your car to the shop without using the clutch if you have a situation like a failed throwout bearing. I once took a car from Auburn, Alabama, to Montgomery with no clutch operation. You have to start the car in first, and with the clutch interlock you'll have to press the clutch down even if it doesn't do anything. You have to know from experience how much the revs drop between gears, but when the revs match, the next gear will pop in clean as you like. If you miss the magic point, add some revs and try again. It's easier at higher revs, so don't worry about getting past third or fourth around town. Try to slow down enough to time the lights and avoid stopping. People might hate you, but they'll hate you more if your battery dies while you're trying to start in gear. It's best to do these kinds of ferry runs after hours, I should say. Clutchless downshifting absolutely requires a moment of neutral and a throttle blip. If you're coming to a light or a stop, just go to neutral, shut off when you stop, take first, and start when you can go. If you're needing a lower gear for a turn at a green, or just a curve, neutral, blip, and when the revs are right, snick the gear you need.

 

[Dennisch]

Always assumed in automatics you could get away with leaving them in park only, but actually heard that's pretty stressful on the parking pawl in the transmission - it's basically just a small notch of metal and having that support the entire weight of a car, on an incline particularly, isn't that great for it.

This.

I have an old GM transmission ready for disassembly and rebuild, and if I don't forget, I'll snap a picture of the teeny tiny piece of metal that is the park lock.

 

[TheCracker]

I was thinking about this and I'm curious, when you park your manual transmission car, do you:

a) Park with only hand brake on (car not in gear)
b) Park with only transmission in gear (no hand brake)
c) Park with both hand brake on and transmission in gear

And do you stick to one method consistently or do you sometimes change which method you use to park? And why? Is there one method or way that is the "right" method?

When i had a manual i'd always park with the hand brake on and in gear (if facing down hill in reverse, if facing uphill in first). Belt and braces. You're also potentially sharing the pressure on the components holding the weight.

 

[Scaff]

I was thinking about this and I'm curious, when you park your manual transmission car, do you:

a) Park with only hand brake on (car not in gear)
b) Park with only transmission in gear (no hand brake)
c) Park with both hand brake on and transmission in gear

And do you stick to one method consistently or do you sometimes change which method you use to park? And why? Is there one method or way that is the "right" method?

Depends on what I am driving and where.

At home and work (perfectly flat and level parking spaces and driveway) I use A

On hills and when off-road I will use C, with 1st or reverse depending on which way I'm parked on the hill.

And for B

A and C when normally driving, B when I'm on the track since there's the possibility of fusing the pads to the rotor after a hot track session.

Same, but also if it's stupidly cold out (around -15 celsius or below) then you can also get the same issue, which legend has it is why in most Saab's you had to engage reverse before you could remove the key, so when you don't use the handbrake you are always in gear and not rolling any place.