Mass. Lawmakers Approve Mandatory Health Care Plan

[FoolKiller]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,190630,00.html

If all goes as planned, poor people will be offered free or heavily subsidized coverage; those who can afford insurance but refuse to get it will face increasing tax penalties until they obtain coverage; and those already insured will see a modest drop in their premiums

Someone correct me if I am wrong but this is forcing all the citizens of the state to get healthcare, even if they don't want it?

And then of course the cost of the healthcare is determined by affordability. That is pure socialism.

This is absolutely crazy.

To top it off businesses that do not provide healthcare insurance will get fined. This is so far from business friendly I wouldn't be surprised to find companies leaving as quickly as possible.

I don't know whether I am more disturbed by the fact that a government winthin the US will force an action like this or the fact that insurance companies managed to convince lawmakers to do this.

 

[Der Alta]

Over the past few years (According to the census) the population of Massachusetts has been the only state in the nation to drop. This move will continue that trend.

At this current time, If I were to add my wife to my companies insurance, we'd lose almost $500 a month. We can't afford that. If we don't add her to the insurance, we're going to get his with a tax penalty. We can't afford that either.

The company she works for is a small business. Less than 8 people in it. This move will cripple the her boss and likely force him out of business.

I have a gut feeling that the population of Massachusetts will drop again due to this. More companies will move to the NH, Conn, RI border and do work in Mass, but live and reside outside of it.

If the governor doesn't veto this, I can't see small businesses thriving here.

If I were a small business man, and I knew that the state was going to hit me with a burder like this, I'd certainly look elsewhere.

Not a smart move on Massachusetts part.

 

[Swift]

I doubt the Gov could keep the veto with the overwhelming support of the legislators.

I'm sorry to hear about the situation with your wife's job. It does very much sound like it will put small businesses out of Mass. Why are law makers so stupid?

 

[FoolKiller]

Der Alta, does Massachusetts have a line item veto for the governor? Romney said he would make a few minor changes so he might do something to help people in your situation.

Sorry to hear about how this will screw you over but I saw this type of scenario in my mind immediately after reading this story. Aside from government forcing people against their will this part of the problem I have with this.


Do you mind if I share your story with my mother who sees this as doing bad to serve the greater good (giving the poor healthcare)? I still have yet to respond to her email because hearing that coming from her just about floored me. She's where I get my conservative politics from.

 

[Der Alta]

Sorry to take so long to get back to you. By all means, share this with your mother.

At this point, Romney is almost fully in favor of this decision. He supports the idea of having healthcare for everyone.

I started to talk to my wife about this the night that I had heard about it, and see what her thoughts were on the subject. Her boss had brought it up during the day, and as a whole their company talked about it. Her boss let everyone know that if this law goes into effect he's likely to pay the fine on a yearly basis, just to stay in business. If he were to offer everyone health insurance, he'd keep the company open for a month, in order to tell his clients that they need to find someone else to do his services as he's closing the doors.

My wife was very adamant in her stance that this bill will only hurt her and I. It hurts small businesses to the point of killing them off. The middle income people are the ones that will suffer, again for the benefit of low income people.

Her and I believe that this is overstepping the boundaries of the government. In my eyes, the Mass. government is trying to start a universal health care program in this state. If you've seen the bueracracy in this state, you know there's no good end to this.

Massachusetts is one of the toughest states to live in, and the least amount of benefits for living here. Other than those benefits that you're forced to have.

 

[Zardoz]

...Her boss had brought it up during the day, and as a whole their company talked about it. Her boss let everyone know that if this law goes into effect he's likely to pay the fine on a yearly basis, just to stay in business. If he were to offer everyone health insurance, he'd keep the company open for a month, in order to tell his clients that they need to find someone else to do his services as he's closing the doors.

"The measure does not call for new taxes but would require businesses that do not offer insurance to pay a $295 annual fee per employee."

$24.58 per month per employee sinks his company, huh? Man, he's right on the edge as it is now, isn't he?

Her boss couldn't let everyone know that if this law goes into effect he's deducting twenty-five bucks a month from their paychecks?

This is the part that bothers me: a so-called "individual mandate," requiring every citizen who can afford it to obtain health insurance or face increasing tax penalties.

What the hell does that mean? Sounds pretty ominous to me.

 

[Der Alta]

ACtually, it's the other way around. If her boss was to provide everyone healthcare that works for his company, he'd be out of money within a month. Hence why he's shelling out the $295 fine. This is effectively telling any business owner "here's a new tax, just for you"

As for the mandate, In their eyes, I can afford the insurance, when you look at my bills and my income, we can't. So you're looking at one family, that you know almost personally, that is being runover by the government.

 

[YSSMAN]

Well, being that Mass. is one of the most far-left states in the Union, it doesnt surprise me all that much comming from there. Lets all watch the plan crash to the ground, set ablaze by the few conservatives left that will scream "Told Ya So!!!"

 

[FoolKiller]

My brother and I have been arguing about this all weekend. He is sure that this is nothing but good. He thinks that if we just raised minimum wage then we would all be able to afford health insurance, but since that isn't happening this is the way to go.

He doesn't see anything wrong with government ordering people to get health insurance because then people will get preventative healthcare and lower healthcare costs in the long run. The problem with this is that I know people I work with (and I have great benefits) that look like their teeth are about to fall out or they can barely see or some are just dirty and greasy with bad coughs all the time. Some people just don't go get checkups and whatnot with or without insurance until they have to. Why my brother doesn't realize this I don't know; our father is like this.

My biggest problem however is that I don't want to pay for the people that can't hold a job. When someone has 10 different jobs in a year I can bet it isn't because our society is hard to get along in. I also don't want to pay for insurance for the high school dropout that hasn't worked in years because he is waiting for an office job.


What I want to know is how it is that both parties agree to this. Romney is rumored to want to run for president and I bet he is hoping to be able to wave this around as a personal achievement and a goal he hopes to reach for the country. He might find that this mentality will lose him the primary in the middle states. I have liberal and conservative friends both who hate this idea.

 

[YSSMAN]

...I don't know if raising the minimum wage would help all that much. The state of Michigan just raised our MW from $5.15 to just shy of $7.00, and will apparently finish off at nearly $7.50 by 2008. While great in all, those at the bottom end still arent going to be able to afford health insurance. It still puts them below the poverty line, esp. if they have kids, so they are still going to have to depend on the government for any kind of help.

And thus the problem of the last few decades arises: Should wages be increased so that employees can afford health insurance, or should the government suck it up, raise taxes, and create and national health insurance plan?

 

[Omnis]

Why don't they just provide health care via their jobs? The government could dump the money into job-granted insurance, rather than to an individual. This would at least promote poor people keeping jobs. Most people already have medicade, anyway.

 

[FoolKiller]

And thus the problem of the last few decades arises: Should wages be increased so that employees can afford health insurance, or should the government suck it up, raise taxes, and create and national health insurance plan?

I like the idea of working towards a better job that will provide benefits.

Either option you list hurts your middle class.

If you raise minimum wage the middle class wage is worth less than before because their wages do not go up with the minimum wage.

If you create a national health plan then the middle class that already has health insurance through their jobs will have the same (or possibly worse) insurance but lose roughly 25% of their net income to taxes.

Why don't they just provide health care via their jobs? The government could dump the money into job-granted insurance, rather than to an individual. This would at least promote poor people keeping jobs. Most people already have medicade, anyway.

Are you referring to Mass. or Michigan? The new Mass. law encourages (aka forces financial penalties) the employers to provide health insurance. An uncaring employer could get the cheapest plan possible and stick their employees with most of the cost, which they are encouraged to take or face government retribution (aka tax penalties, aka fines).

As for poor people keeping jobs, there is a reason why unemployement never gets below 3-4%. You generally don't want those people working for you. At that point turnover rates reach close to 80% in retaraunt and grocery type businesses because employees are constantly having to be fired or they flake out and quit showing up.

As for Medicaid, Mass. will be able to take the Medicaid money and pump it into healthcare insurance for the poor that won't have to pay a premium. At least that is how I read the plan working out. This weill essentially eliminate Medicaid.

Here's a question: Medicaid is no more in Mass. and poor people have "free" healthcare coverage. How "free" is it? Will they have a deductible of any kind? Like, my wife has "free" healthcare coverage through her job, but she has a 20% deductible. Is this what the poor people are getting or do they get some kind of super gold plan for free while the middle class has a huge deductible that will require a loan to pay off?

That would be fair. Work hard all day, everyday and then get appendicitis and have to cough up $5,000 (probably more) out of pocket for the surgery. The guy who can't hold a job more than a few days because he has a bad attitude gets it for free. That's what you get for working hard.

 

[Danoff]

I've got an idea! Let's raise the minimum wage to $500/hour, and force employers to cover all possible medical expenses. Let's also prevent employers from being able to fire their employees, and make them provide for their employees retirement.

That'll fix a lot of problems. The government will get some serious revenue from those big wages so we'll pay down the debt. Plus, health care costs will all be covered by corporations, so that won't be a problem anymore. With nobody getting fired, unemployment will go to zero, and with employers providing for retirement, social security won't be a problem either.

Where's the flaw?

 

[FoolKiller]

I've got an idea! Let's raise the minimum wage to $500/hour, and force employers to cover all possible medical expenses. Let's also prevent employers from being able to fire their employees, and make them provide for their employees retirement.

That'll fix a lot of problems. The government will get some serious revenue from those big wages so we'll pay down the debt. Plus, health care costs will all be covered by corporations, so that won't be a problem anymore. With nobody getting fired, unemployment will go to zero, and with employers providing for retirement, social security won't be a problem either.

Where's the flaw?

Two flaws. The huge inflation jump would make the dollar worthless and there are enough people that won't work if they don't need to that businesses won't run properly and our societal structure will collapse into chaos.

 

[Danoff]

Two flaws. The huge inflation jump would make the dollar worthless and there are enough people that won't work if they don't need to that businesses won't run properly and our societal structure will collapse into chaos.

Not to mention that it would prevent all business from being profitable overnight, resulting in bankruptcy after bankrupcty.

A little peice of that scenario is what we buy every time we levvy a few more burdens on employers.