Mentsu, Polyphony Digital, & Us...

[Stephen220378]

PD’s communication can be frustrating. But it is certainly improving and they’re listen to people with influence.

As a regular player I’ll judge ‘em on what they deliver. GT Sport launched undercooked, but their post launch support is the best I’ve ever experienced in this industry.

Born out of necessity, not generosity. I'd bet my left nut Sony basically told them to fix their mess

 

[ARTAsean]

If this is true, my confidence in the next GT game has just took a serious nosedive

Not sure why. PD has their own vision for the perfect racing game and they’ve never delivered us a bad one. They don’t owe anything else to the community.

GT Sport was an inevitable (mis-step)ping stone towards future-proofing the franchise; both with high def content and a shift towards multi-player based gameplay. Throw in the FIA partnership and World Tour, it was a huge undertaking and GTS wound up being pretty great despite everything.

If anything, your confidence in, and anticipation for, the next GT should be extremely high.

 

[dabz343]

The closest a normal Westerner can get to understanding Mentsu is comparing our perception of "saving face" to Mentsu but it's far more complicated than just "saving face."

I agree it can be complicated, especially at the binary level, and certainly right to say one shouldn't just make superficial correlations and call it a deep understanding.

But I think what BallPtPenThief communicated to me was that--the need to protect one's status (or save face) is in every culture. It just so happens that Mentsu is the Japanese version. I can't argue with that.

 

[Stephen220378]

Not sure why. PD has their own vision for the perfect racing game and they’ve never delivered us a bad one. They don’t owe anything else to the community.

GT Sport was an inevitable (mis-step)ping stone towards future-proofing the franchise; both with high def content and a shift towards multi-player based gameplay. Throw in the FIA partnership and World Tour, it was a huge undertaking and GTS wound up being pretty great despite everything.

If anything, your confidence in, and anticipation for, the next GT should be extremely high.

Their vision for the perfect racing game includes terrible AI, an abundance of fake racing cars, pie in the sky VGT's. A Sport mode which is basically a PvP version of GT5 seasonal events and an FIA farce that less than 10% players have even tried. Sounds perfect.

Don't defend GT Sport as a huge undertaking, it isn't. Slightly Mad Studios have put out 2 far superior racing games on the PS4 in the time it's took PD to to put one half decent (after a year and a half of updates) game out.

And finally a "stepping stone" yeah because Sony would allow PD's only GT game on PS4 to be a "stepping stone"

Please

 

[ARTAsean]

Their vision for the perfect racing game includes terrible AI, an abundance of fake racing cars, pie in the sky VGT's. A Sport mode which is basically a PvP version of GT5 seasonal events and an FIA farce that less than 10% players have even tried. Sounds perfect.

Don't defend GT Sport as a huge undertaking, it isn't. Slightly Mad Studios have put out 2 far superior racing games on the PS4 in the time it's took PD to to put one half decent (after a year and a half of updates) game out.

And finally a "stepping stone" yeah because Sony would allow PD's only GT game on PS4 to be a "stepping stone"

Please

If you’re good enough for the AI to seem comparatively terrible, you should be racing online, primarily. That sentiment also makes you the minority. Remember, the average player hardly touches Sport Mode and struggles even with the Campaign driving tests.

VGT’s were created at a time when GT6 was pushing 1300 cars. It was just sour luck that the high-def GT6 premiums were the bulk of GT Sports car list. The VGT project is pretty much abandoned so it’s really a non-issue moving forward. And if it improved the PD-manu relationships, it’s all for the better.

Terming Pcars and Pcars2 “far superior” is a bit of a gaffe, the online playerbase is nonexistent compared to GT’s and it’s an overall dull experience on the PS4 when a controller is used.

 

[Sander 001]

Not sure why. PD has their own vision for the perfect racing game and they’ve never delivered us a bad one. They don’t owe anything else to the community.

GT Sport was an inevitable (mis-step)ping stone towards future-proofing the franchise; both with high def content and a shift towards multi-player based gameplay. Throw in the FIA partnership and World Tour, it was a huge undertaking and GTS wound up being pretty great despite everything.

If anything, your confidence in, and anticipation for, the next GT should be extremely high.

For example the penalty system is balls and there's been countless posts about how to fix it. So PD cannot fix it because all the solutions have been suggested.

 

[splitwindow]

For example the penalty system is balls and there's been countless posts about how to fix it. So PD cannot fix it because all the solutions have been suggested.

So then the only thing they can do to fix it, is to break it even moore!

 

[eran0004]

So, in essence, every time we give PD solutions to problems in GT Sport, they wouldn't be able to implement them without "losing face". Maybe we need to find a way of bringing problems to their attention without overtly giving them the solution, & if we could do it in such a way that gives them face (kao o tateru) then all the better.

But if you believe that our “solutions” reach them, then our problem descriptions also reach them so the problem you are describing is already solved.

I think it’s more about us being overly confident about the stuff we come up with here. Maybe the fix isn’t as good as we think it is, or it’s not possible to implement, or the problem isn’t as important as we think it is.

 

[AlanH49]

Born out of necessity, not generosity. I'd bet my left nut Sony basically told them to fix their mess

At launch GT Sport was lacking in content. But I’d suggest we’re now well past the point where they “owe us”. It appears we’re in line for another year or so of updates. Probably another 4-6 tracks and 50-100 more cars. If the rain addition is more than a token effort, that’s a big plus too. Neither do I think we should underplay the FIA e-sports series. It’s quite shocking how good the production value is on their broadcasts. They’ve made me a fan who’s actively looking forward to GT events as much as real world series!

With the benefit of hindsight I’m pleased PD took the decision to build everything from scratch. We now have a high quality title and PD have the asset’s to hit the ground running with GT7.

 

[splitwindow]

Now consider when one lossed face just couple hundred years ago, the expectation was to put a blade into your own stomach (Hari-kari).... a tradition such as that doesn't just fade away.

Couple hundred years ago? If anyone is up for some light (and morbid) reading then try the Wikipedia page for Suicide in Japan.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_in_Japan
Quote "while being investigated for an expenses scandal, cabinet minister Toshikatsu Matsuoka took his life in 2007. The former governor of Tokyo, Shintaro Ishihara, described him as a "true samurai" for preserving his honour."

On a sidenote, I'd like to visit Japan someday. I think it'd be just about the most extreme culture shock a westerner could ever experience.

 

[mirial]

Their vision for the perfect racing game includes terrible AI, an abundance of fake racing cars, pie in the sky VGT's. A Sport mode which is basically a PvP version of GT5 seasonal events and an FIA farce that less than 10% players have even tried. Sounds perfect.

Don't defend GT Sport as a huge undertaking, it isn't. Slightly Mad Studios have put out 2 far superior racing games on the PS4 in the time it's took PD to to put one half decent (after a year and a half of updates) game out.

And finally a "stepping stone" yeah because Sony would allow PD's only GT game on PS4 to be a "stepping stone"

Please

Actually since this is a game that's proposed mission is to be for all levels of racers that feedback from all, from the very best of the racers to those just playing to start out with would make a better more balanced game for all players regardless of their skill levels.

Those of the higher skill levels have different wants or perhaps desire even a different competitive structure within the online portion of the game than those of a somewhat lower level.

To make this game better PD would be better served to do their best to accommodate those from all levels, not just the top, or the bottom or even the middle but all players that want to play the game.

A lot of players that started to play Gran Turismo 1 at a young age still play the franchise today and some of those players are todays top guys.

To make the futures top guys you need to get that influx of young players playing and staying with the GT franchise as years go by, most of those kids do not start at the top so the game needs to also draw them into the fold and offer a level to hold their interest while still giving the top guys what they desire at their level.

That would be so much simpler; just calibrate the balance of each group of cars progressing towards 'neutral' the higher the group finishing with open settings towards the top. I can guarantee there will be S drivers wanting to do the entry levels which will create 'the pull' Kaz keeps talking about. Just watching some really talented drivers being forced to drive high spec cars setup for beginners isn't doing their talent or development any justice; a bit like dumbing down the education system so that everyone scores 90-100% in exams.

 

[VBR]

But if you believe that our “solutions” reach them, then our problem descriptions also reach them so the problem you are describing is already solved.

@Jordan has confirmed before that people from PD do come on GT Planet, so I'd be surprised if they haven't come across our problems & solutions. If what I presume is correct about the way Mentsu is affecting them, then the problem is that our solutions have reached them; did you not read the quote from @Slapped in the OP?


@Dabz - If you want to believe Face is so similar in differing cultures, despite the overwhelming evidence to the contrary, then I'll leave you to your misunderstanding. I see no point in wasting my time trying to convince you otherwise. End of...

 

[whiteusagi]

After doing my own studies and actually living in the country for an extended period of time, I would agree with the statement that Japan has no greater obsession with "saving face" compared to that of any other country. Japan is often described as whacky and out-there by Western standards, but my own experiences have taught me that this is simply another country and doesn't, in my opinion, deserve the exaggerated descriptions that are repeated endlessly on the internet, including that of the Japanese-specific form of "saving face." And yes, just for those curious, Japanese media does also indeed play out exaggerated Western stereotypes to show the audience how whacky and out-there we are compared to their norms. Everybody does it, but they're not really true.

@splitwindow
Former Tokyo governor Shintaro Ishihara may have said this and that about "samurai spirit," but if you look at what Japanese people think of the former governor, you'll realize that most people just look at him as some right-wing nutjob (insert "Old man yells at sky" meme), and not somebody who represents the general population's viewpoints. Everybody's experiences will differ, but I personally didn't come across any significant culture shock moving here from the States. That being said, Japan is a great place to visit, and I definitely do recommend those who can to come see for themselves what life here is like.

 

[Majorwolf72]

It would be good all drivers from S to A to boycott everything until the penny drops which will trigger proper communication with a bunch of coherent, experienced sim racers to give this game proper feedback.

They would if you paid them to

After doing my own studies and actually living in the country for an extended period of time, I would agree with the statement that Japan has no greater obsession with "saving face" compared to that of any other country. Japan is often described as whacky and out-there by Western standards, but my own experiences have taught me that this is simply another country and doesn't, in my opinion, deserve the exaggerated descriptions that are repeated endlessly on the internet, including that of the Japanese-specific form of "saving face." And yes, just for those curious, Japanese media does also indeed play out exaggerated Western stereotypes to show the audience how whacky and out-there we are compared to their norms. Everybody does it, but they're not really true.

@splitwindow
Former Tokyo governor Shintaro Ishihara may have said this and that about "samurai spirit," but if you look at what Japanese people think of the former governor, you'll realize that most people just look at him as some right-wing nutjob (insert "Old man yells at sky" meme), and not somebody who represents the general population's viewpoints. Everybody's experiences will differ, but I personally didn't come across any significant culture shock moving here from the States. That being said, Japan is a great place to visit, and I definitely do recommend those who can to come see for themselves what life here is like.

Proof that you have become part of the system I can only say that my father as well as I in business have made the stereotypical experience a million times. In fact, it was so predictable that we shaped our strategy towards it to get the best deal for us in the end.

 

[eran0004]

@Jordan has confirmed before that people from PD do come on GT Planet, so I'd be surprised if they haven't come across our problems & solutions. If what I presume is correct about the way Mentsu is affecting them, then the problem is that our solutions have reached them; did you not read the quote from @Slapped in the OP?

If our solutions are good solutions, that could be a possible reason for why they haven’t been implemented. But it’s a big if.

 

[dabz343]

@Dabz - If you want to believe Face is so similar in differing cultures, despite the overwhelming evidence to the contrary, then I'll leave you to your misunderstanding. I see no point in wasting my time trying to convince you otherwise. End of...

I thought you may choose this route as a response...do you really think there is overwhelming evidence that saving face is so different from culture to culture?

Btw, for those interested. VBR's response is typical of how westerners generally try to save face publicly..."if you want to believe...I'll leave you to your misunderstanding...I see no point...bla, bla, bla".

You're entitled to your opinion, good luck with that.

 

[BallPtPenTheif]

According to some, there's no accurate way to describe it with one word in English. Words used to translate Mentsu include; face, honour, dignity, reputation, appearance. "According to a lexical definition (Koujien 5th., 1998), the word mentsu means “the social reputations or social appearance”."

Well, that's what the concept of face means. Again, I don't see the apparent difference just a lot of woo woo and empty pretension in place of a bare explanation. On one hand you tell me that I don't understand the concept you just presented, then you place the burden of discovery on me (your audience), and then you provide an explanation that means the same as "face".

I think you grossly underestimate the intensity of ego, pride, and the self preservation of face in Western culture and are naively attributing this almost mystical non-descriptive value of the same sentiment from a foreign culture. You're actually bordering on "orientalism" with how heavy handed you are about this term. Have you grown up with Japanese people? I have, and their cultural pressure to follow societal social and career norms was no different than the pressure from any normal overbearing family. From my experience the pressure was very similar to the pressure I saw within Indian, Korean, upper class Americans, and Jewish families that I grew up with. All of my friends, artsy musician kids in advanced placement courses appeasing the social perception that their parents wanted from them.

I think it's naive to think that the concept of "mentsu" is a strictly Japanese phenomenon rather than a human phenomenon with a Japanese name.

 

[ARTAsean]

Well, that's what the concept of face means. Again, I don't see the apparent difference just a lot of woo woo and empty pretension in place of a bare explanation. On one hand you tell me that I don't understand the concept you just presented, then you place the burden of discovery on me (your audience), and then you provide an explanation that means the same as "face".


I think you grossly underestimate the intensity of ego, pride, and the self preservation of face in Western culture and are naively attributing this almost mystical non-descriptive value of the same sentiment from a foreign culture. You're actually bordering on "orientalism" with how heavy handed you are about this term. Have you grown up with Japanese people? I have, and their cultural pressure to follow societal social and career norms was no different than the pressure from any normal overbearing family. From my experience the pressure was very similar to the pressure I saw within Indian, Korean, upper class Americans, and Jewish families that I grew up with. All of my friends, artsy musician kids in advanced placement courses appeasing the social perception that their parents wanted from them.


I think it's naive to think that the concept of "mentsu" is a strictly Japanese phenomenon rather than a human phenomenon with a Japanese name.

 

[whiteusagi]

Proof that you have become part of the system I can only say that my father as well as I in business have made the stereotypical experience a million times. In fact, it was so predictable that we shaped our strategy towards it to get the best deal for us in the end.

I am unaware of what this “system” is that you are referring to. However, if you mean to say that I have integrated with Japanese society, then yes, I would agree. It doesn’t serve my interests to be butting heads meaninglessly with the country I’ve chosen to call home.

Out of genuine curiosity, what was the sort of business relationship you had with those stereotypical-Japanese-companies-only-concerned-with-saving-face? Were you/your father supplying to Japanese customers? Were they hired to develop something according to requirements laid out by you/your father? Also, in what manner did you take advantage of the saving-face mechanism of Japan to improve upon your business relationship? Of course business sensitive information should be withheld, but I am honestly curious as to what sort of general situation you/your father found yourselves in when working with Japanese counterparts.

 

[dabz343]

Out of genuine curiosity, what was the sort of business relationship you had with those stereotypical-Japanese-companies-only-concerned-with-saving-face? Were you/your father supplying to Japanese customers? Were they hired to develop something according to requirements laid out by you/your father? Also, in what manner did you take advantage of the saving-face mechanism of Japan to improve upon your business relationship? Of course business sensitive information should be withheld, but I am honestly curious as to what sort of general situation you/your father found yourselves in when working with Japanese counterparts.

Good question. Now I'm curious to hear a coherent answer.

 

[VBR]

The amount of logical fallacies in this thread is too damn high! I see no reason in trying to explain my position, which is clearly misunderstood, over & over again. There seems to be a trend on GT Planet where certain people have nothing better to do other than to try their best to turn every single thread into a :censored:storm of contention.

 

[Downhill Dino]

@Dabz - If you want to believe Face is so similar in differing cultures, despite the overwhelming evidence to the contrary, then I'll leave you to your misunderstanding. I see no point in wasting my time trying to convince you otherwise. End of...

The amount of logical fallacies in this thread is too damn high! I see no reason in trying to explain my position, which is clearly misunderstood, over & over again. There seems to be a trend on GT Planet where certain people have nothing better to do other than to try their best to turn every single thread into a :censored:storm of contention.

Can you elaborate more please? All I've seen so far is pushing this idea that Japan does things a certain way and that's bad because it's not the same as us. No? In my eyes, this certain way isn't really any different than the rest of the world if I'm understanding correctly. So, a few stepped forward and offered a counter-argument and now you're acting like you've been backed into a corner because things aren't lining up the way you wanted them to so you've decided to give nothing in return. If it's so misunderstood you're supposed to explain yourself.

I'll just open a thread asking for discussion, and when people come in saying the opposite of what I want to hear I'll stop responding properly because surely I can't be wrong! Then I think I'll insult the community for no real reason other than not taking a liking to opposition (right or wrong).

 

[BallPtPenTheif]

The amount of logical fallacies in this thread is too damn high! I see no reason in trying to explain my position, which is clearly misunderstood, over & over again. There seems to be a trend on GT Planet where certain people have nothing better to do other than to try their best to turn every single thread into a :censored:storm of contention.

Right, god forbid anyone disagree with you.

So far the only logical flaw I see is you attributing classic Japanese cultural norms to a modern company. PD is not made up of politicians, lawyers, or the Yakuza. Game development is a bit off of the beaten path for any careered professional and I can't imagine that they are anchored by mentsu in the same way a World War II soldier would have been.

Could PD consist of ego driven stubborn mentsu-paths? Possibly. But we don't really know that and a detached cultural observation doesn't help us answer that question. It's one thing to comment on cultural norms while they are being observed but to attribute the presumption of a cultural norm when there is no clear sign of it... well, that just seems like another way to invent a stereotype.

 

[VBR]

Thank goodness for the GT Planet ignore button!

 

[Downhill Dino]

Thank goodness for the GT Planet ignore button!

Right I should put it to use too. Stay classy. 👎

 

[VBR]

It's interesting isn't it, that when you refuse to engage with contentions people, they seem to get even more annoyed & contentious.

 

[Downhill Dino]

Pot calling the kettle black. When you have a history of flame baiting it's no wonder I'm losing my patience and seemingly others. Time and time again it's the same thing. It's interesting isn't it?

Before you go on about 'Oh! But I thought I was ignored!" I'll stop checking in once a resolution of some form rolls around.

So are you going to actually respond to anyone's point or continue dodging?

 

[VBR]

It's interesting isn't it, that when you refuse to engage with contentions people, they seem to get even more annoyed & contentious.

Yep. Even more interesting is when people you've not even interacted with before come crawling out of the woodwork just to join in the action. Sheesh, some people...

 

[dabz343]

Thank goodness for the GT Planet ignore button!

Ironically, this may be PD's exact response to you and your critiques of GTS. Perhaps VBR has more in common with PD than he realizes.

 

[watto79]

All arguments about Japanese culture aside, just look through the patch notes for each update and you will find examples of changes made after they have been discussed here. Whether or not that's cause and effect we will never know but it does happen.

Examples:
The low fuel red text of death blinding our apexes
Manual shifters being quicker than paddle shifters
Collisions with 'semi-ghosted' status of cars
Refuelling speed fixed in online lobbies

I picked these as they are subjects that were talked about extensively on GT Planet before they were addressed in a patch.

At the Paris live event Kaz was directly asked about the Daily Races combinations, after which we saw some new combinations and new things tried (like a selection of provided cars).

Like I said, we will never know if this was because of community feedback or not, but I see no harm in constructively talking about our perceived issues with the game and potential solutions. I believe PD are listening, even if their communication back is limited.