MG to return to Longbridge & SLR recalled because of Fire fears

[Dave A]

Regarding sales, up until it became public knowledge that there was a high chance they were going to go out of business they were selling well.

 

[Poverty]

And why were they going out of business? Because they wernt selling all that many cars in the first place. And why wernt they selling that many? Because the cars were never all that good.

 

[McLaren]

While it's not terrific news, it does give me a reason to go back to Ewing Mercedes.

 

[Scaff]

Regarding sales, up until it became public knowledge that there was a high chance they were going to go out of business they were selling well.

The MG TF sold very well in its class, but it was not a particulalry profitable model.

Nor, given the niche nature of its class, was it in any way enough to support the company. as for the rest of the model range, they were not selling well at all.

Quite the opposite, apart from a very brief spike in sales when Phoinex took control, sales of all MG Rovers apart from the TF, were in steep decline.

The sales figures for 2000 - 2005 can be found here, and as a trend sales fell year on year in almost every market, the Phoinex 'spike' can be seen, but it was minor.

http://www.austin-rover.co.uk/sales2001-5f.htm

Its also worth looking at the seperate Rover and then MG figures, as without the expansion of the MG model range (and these sales) the figures would have looked a lot worse.


I'm sorry but MG Rover had not been selling well, or even maintaining market share for many years before they went under.

Scaff

 

[Dave A]

2002 - 2004 the sales seemed okay, it seemed to start to dip in the latter half of 04 which wasn't long before the company went under.

 

[Scaff]

2002 - 2004 the sales seemed okay, it seemed to start to dip in the latter half of 04 which wasn't long before the company went under.

Now I provide figures for 2000 - 2005 and you selectively pick a limited range, I'm afraid that does smack a little of bias.

OK figures for MG Rover in the UK (the single most important market for the company) for 2000 - 2005

2000 - 103,663
2001 - 97,202 (- 7% YOY)
2002 - 99,108 (+ 2% YOY)
2003 - 95,848 (- 3% YOY)
2004 - 76,669 (-20% YOY)
2005 - 29,291 (-61% YOY)

Now apart from a single spike in '02 the figure show a clear year on year fall in sales, you also have to take into account that over this same period overall car sales in the UK were growing. The only year in that list in which overall car sales dropped was 2005, which was a result of the fall of MG Rover.

Now when you look at those two factors together, you get MG Rover loosing sales, in a market that is growing, which makes MG Rovers performance all the worse.

I'm sorry but you can't hide the fact that MG Rover did not just start loosing sales just before it went under. The numbers were against them well before that time.

Regards

Scaff

BTW - Sales between 2002 and 2004 fell by 23%, which for a car manufacturer is disaster

 

[Dave A]

Okay yeah, but 95k to 103k isn't a huge hugh difference, not a company crippling one that's for sure. But then it dropped to 76k which is a big drop, then the next year it went right down again, then the company went bust. I'd put that drop down to potential buyers knowledge that the compnay was going bankrupt (which it was at that point in time) and that affecting their decision to buy one or not.

 

[Scaff]

Okay yeah, but 95k to 103k isn't a huge hugh difference, not a company crippling one that's for sure. But then it dropped to 76k which is a big drop, then the next year it went right down again, then the company went bust. I'd put that drop down to potential buyers knowledge that the compnay was going bankrupt (which it was at that point in time) and that affecting their decision to buy one or not.

As I mentioned above, what you forgetting to take into account is the growth in overall UK car sales during the same period, this has to be taken into account. If you are loosing sales of this percentage in a growing market its seriously bad news.

Also a drop from 103k to 95k is around 8%, thats a significant drop, having worked for a manufacturer, loosing sales of this level in a growing market is very serious.

I was with Renault when we dropped sales by around 2% one year, and no one got a bonus and departmental budgets were cut back; MG Rover lost 7% between 2000 and 2001. They only grew sales in one year in the entire period and only by a small amount and certainly not enough to counter the massive drops in the other years.

Quite simply and bluntly put, in a growing market place, these figures are seriously damaging, they can not been seen as anything else.

I'm sorry but they clearly show that not only were MG Rover loosing sales at a massive rate, but they were doing so in an expanding market.

Even discounting the figures for 2005 when MG Rover went under, sales fell by over 20% between 2000 and 2004, a company that looses in excess of a 1/5 of it sales in a growing market is living on borrowed time.

Regards

Scaff

 

[Dave A]

Sure but wouldn't it only be really bad news if you were trying to exand your compnay in line with that growth, which is what MG Rover was trying to do, but in the wrong ways.

To sum up what I'm saying.

2000 - 103,663 - Pheonix group get the rest of MG Rover, the news spreads the sales boom, this really is to be expected whith brands such as MG and Rover.
2001 - 97,202 (- 7% YOY) - The sales drop to a more realistic level now the boom is over, news of V8 engined models arriving next year gets them a lot of good media coverage.
2002 - 99,108 (+ 2% YOY) - MG is still looking good, news about possible V8 engined models arriving late in the year is a boost and MG buying the rights to the Qvale Mangusta and the factory gives them headlines, also they continue to get largley positive reviews.
2003 - 95,848 (- 3% YOY) - Sales drop slightly, the V8 models don't arrive by the end of the year, MG SV get's re-designed a lot of money spent this year.
2004 - 76,669 (-20% YOY) - V8 models delayed again but due this year, SV finally arrives but costs nealry 80 grand. MG Rover in financial trouble graces the headlines all over the UK towards the latte half of the year getting more seriouse as the year goes on, sales really take a hit late in 2004, coincidence, I doubt it.
2005 - 29,291 (-61% YOY) - MG Rover goes bankrupt in April 2005, between Jannuary and April they sold 30 thousand cars largly at cut prices. Then in July, Nanjiing automotive buy MG Rover.

 

[Scaff]

Sure but wouldn't it only be really bad news if you were trying to exand your compnay in line with that growth, which is what MG Rover was trying to do, but in the wrong ways.

Sorry but the industry doesn't always look at it in such understanding terms, quite simply if you are loosing sales you are in trouble. At the very least you will be expected to grow sales in a growing market, because if you can't do it when the market is up, then you ceratainly will not manage in a lean overall sales year.

In a growing market, even holding sales stable will be seen as a failure, because in terms of the growing market, even by remaining at level sales you are loosing market share, as the market has grown.

To sum up what I'm saying.

2000 - 103,663 - Pheonix group get the rest of MG Rover, the news spreads the sales boom, this really is to be expected whith brands such as MG and Rover.
2001 - 97,202 (- 7% YOY) - The sales drop to a more realistic level now the boom is over, news of V8 engined models arriving next year gets them a lot of good media coverage.
2002 - 99,108 (+ 2% YOY) - MG is still looking good, news about possible V8 engined models arriving late in the year is a boost and MG buying the rights to the Qvale Mangusta and the factory gives them headlines, also they continue to get largley positive reviews.
2003 - 95,848 (- 3% YOY) - Sales drop slightly, the V8 models don't arrive by the end of the year, MG SV get's re-designed a lot of money spent this year.
2004 - 76,669 (-20% YOY) - V8 models delayed again but due this year, SV finally arrives but costs nealry 80 grand. MG Rover in financial trouble graces the headlines all over the UK towards the latte half of the year getting more seriouse as the year goes on, sales really take a hit late in 2004, coincidence, I doubt it.
2005 - 29,291 (-61% YOY) - MG Rover goes bankrupt in April 2005, between Jannuary and April they sold 30 thousand cars largly at cut prices. Then in July, Nanjiing automotive buy MG Rover.

Sorry but that only hold true is the years prior to 2000 were poor.

1999:
Sales: 143,343 cars
Market share: 6.52%
Losses: 1.207bn euros (+26.1%)
£800m

1998:
Sales: 193,919 cars
Market share: 8.63%
Losses: 957m euros
£590m


MG Rover have been in effective free fall in terms of both sales and market share since at least 1998, the Phoniex blip I was refering too was actually 2002 when a lot of press releases and leaks were showing possiable new models, and the British press was (for a short while) behind MG Rover in a big way. It was also a significant year for the launch of MG models.

Any way you want to look at it, MG Rover were not selling well until almost the end, it may be an unpleasant fact, but they lost market share and sales at a fatal rate for at least 6 - 7 years before they went under.

You also have to accept that as a company you could argue that the failure to take the Japanese imports in the 70's seriously, along with the major strike action and poor management at the same time, were the start of problems that the group never go over.

Regards

Scaff

 

[Dave A]

Okay you got me there.

 

[Scaff]

Okay you got me there.

As I said earlier I have not got any personally bias with MG Rover, hell I've worked with enough MG Rover dealer staff that it was hard when I heard the company had finally gone under. Hurts more when people you know (even if it is fleetingly) may be about to loose their jobs.

The problem is that the sales figure unfortunatly only show one thing, a company in deep trouble.

Its a big shame, but unfortunatly one that may predicted.

Regards

Scaff

 

[Danny]

Just because it was one of the better selling MG Rovers doesnt mean its good. People buy crap cars all the time, why do you think Fiats still with us to this day, and the same goes for alfa romeo,

Hmm I think I'll go out on a limb and say that Fiat made well thought out, genuinely useful cars with style.

as well as the 500 and the Coupe.

Alfa have had good (if unloved) cars too, i.e. 166 and such like.

which is probably the least reliable manufacturer to ever exist.

Ever heard of the NSU Rotary cars?

If MG rover made good cars, they would have never gone bust, its as simple as that.

Bullcrap. The cars were fine, management was not.

 

[Poverty]

Bullcrap. The cars were fine, management was not

lol how where the cars fine, when they some of them ran on a modified late 80's honda chassis, and for the money there were plenty better alternatives?

LOL, saying its managements fault is as if your saying they priced themselves out of the market, or they didnt promote properly.

As for fiat theyre bloody boring, and havent got the best reliability and build quality either, they make good diesels and thats about it.