MH370: Malaysian Airlines Flight to Beijing carrying 239 people is lost over sea.

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LMSCorvetteGT2
...PM, you're someone that works with the english language correct? I'm someone that has interned and studies in the Aerospace Engineering field, I know how the systems work, just as you know how your career field works. It's condescending to answer in the way you have especially since it's obvious electrical systems are powered by electric..
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Ooh, that felt a bit harsh, he was making valid point - sometimes stating the obvious is how you establish facts to theorise from ;)

I have a pilot licence, not rated solo IFR but trained for it (but there's no need to pay for something I won't use). I also know the AF report quite well have presented on it in an aeronautical engineering context during and after the Airbus portion of the investigation. I also have over 10,000 simulator hours on various Boeing and Airbus heavy platforms, mostly on FS (hehehe) but about 4 "for real". And wow - if you ever get the chance do it!

@prisonermonkeys , he's logical and erudite and a master of research, generally I find he says what he means even though I don't always agree with it ;)

Getting back on to topic now we've all flashed our badges and shuffled around the room... :D

I find it inconceivable that no transmission at all was made by any part of the aircraft unless it very rapidly disintegrated. What I'm wondering now is how many of those transmissions were being monitored. The Airbus relay is worldwide, I'm not sure about Boeing? You'd expect it to be monitored there, especially so 'close' to Korea and Japan, wouldn't you?
 
Everything can fail in one go as nearly everything run's on electricity provided by the engines. If you have double engine failure you have no control whatsoever. That's why aircraft have emergency ram air turbines because the danger of it happening suddenly is very real.

However in this situation, given the fact they were at cruising altitude, it would give them plenty of time to glide to somewhere.
 
Robin.
Everything can fail in one go as nearly everything run's on electricity provided by the engines. If you have double engine failure you have no control whatsoever. That's why aircraft have emergency ram air turbines because the danger of it happening suddenly is very real.

However in this situation, given the fact they were at cruising altitude, it would give them plenty of time to glide to somewhere.
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No, there are a number of backup power supply systems including UPS-style backup batteries. Just switching the engines off doesn't remove power, and in addition to the engine's turbine being able to generate there's a drop down generator (which I referred to, but maybe you mean that one. Sorry :) )

If the plane was gliding I find it very unlikely that it couldn't have been transmitting at all - all kinds of monitoring telemetry is broadcast all the time.
 
Robin.
Everything can fail in one go as nearly everything run's on electricity provided by the engines. If you have double engine failure you have no control whatsoever. That's why aircraft have emergency ram air turbines because the danger of it happening suddenly is very real.

However given the fact they were at cruising altitude it would give them plenty of time to glide to somewhere.
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Yes but once again, the engineering that goes into this stuff doesn't work on one system only especially when these things fly over large areas of land and sea that aren't populated and well known. Having an automated system which every modern air system has no matter the maker (BAE, Boeing, Lockheed, Airbus and so on), that is how these things are found. As @TenEightyOne has said something massive would have had to happen that the system didn't send any relay issues back to the tower with or without a pilot.

We don't know what happened so no it doesn't mean it would necessarily give them to glide somewhere, not to be rude, but let's leave the movies in Hollywood.
 
I'm going to read the rest of this thread as soon as I'm done with this post.

A lot of people are speculating and to me that's fine because no one knows what's going on. As long as you have a reasonable background in aviation and how the 772's avionics work, then for the most part I'll believe you...

However, my two ideas as to what happened are along most of the speculation.
1. Similar to the Air France Atlantic crash, the pilots misread the avionics and resulted in a plunging crash.
2. Due to this whole passport spiel, if hijacking were to occur I believe it resulted in an overtake by the passengers similar to the fourth crash during 9/11.

That's my 2¢...
 
LMSCorvetteGT2
Clearly you don't understand fully how such communication systems operate even in the occurrence of electrical failure.
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Those systems are fully contained within the plane, including the primary and secondary power sources, plus any back-up supplies. Even if they are designed to continue transmitting without an immediate power source, there is a narrow window of possibility in which each source could be taken out.

The point I am trying to make is that they need power, since they do not run on magic. Although in this case, I am guessing that the transmitter itself was damaged or destroyed so that it was no longer capable of sending out a message.
 
Swagger897
I'm going to read the rest of this thread as soon as I'm done with this post.

A lot of people are speculating and to me that's fine because no one knows what's going on. As long as you have a reasonable background in aviation and how the 772's avionics work, then for the most part I'll believe you...

However, my two ideas as to what happened are along most of the speculation.
1. Similar to the Air France Atlantic crash, the pilots misread the avionics and resulted in a plunging crash.
2. Due to this whole passport spiel, if hijacking were to occur I believe it resulted in an overtake by the passengers similar to the fourth crash during 9/11.

That's my 2¢...
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I'm more inclined to agree with the first because to me that seems like the obvious one, the problem with that is it still doesn't explain why there were no relay transmission from the airplane to the ground in real time of what was going on with the aircraft.
I don't think the passport thing is the culprit, I think it's just sheer dumb luck that two stolen passports are on the same flight to be honest. I think someone would have called out from the aircraft if they were being hijacked but then again maybe not. I have read the reports that the U.S. is monitoring that avenue but I feel it's more of our paranoia from the National Gov't than actually real.

prisonermonkeys
Those systems are fully contained within the plane, including the primary and secondary power sources, plus any back-up supplies. Even if they are designed to continue transmitting without an immediate power source, there is a narrow window of possibility in which each source could be taken out.

The point I am trying to make is that they need power, since they do not run on magic. Although in this case, I am guessing that the transmitter itself was damaged or destroyed so that it was no longer capable of sending out a message.
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Obviously they do, and no one claimed they ran on magic the context of my post never alluded to that, rather me and another user both told you that the realism of that happening is very very slim. The fact that they never went off at all it seems is quite strange and unless the plane just outright obliterated into nothing it doesn't answer why warning weren't given without the pilots.
 
TenEightyOne
No, there are a number of backup power supply systems including UPS-style backup batteries. Just switching the engines off doesn't remove power, and in addition to the engine's turbine being able to generate there's a drop down generator (which I referred to, but maybe you mean that one. Sorry :) )

.
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An EMP could result in all electronics failing. Lightning strike/ solar flare, or something man made could produce an EMP strong enough.
 
jimipitbull
An EMP could result in all electronics failing. Lightning strike/ solar flare, or something man made could produce an EMP strong enough.
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Lightning strikes are engineered for and are extremely unlikely to destroy a plane. If the plane was gliding, it could make power. If it could make power, the power could be jacked in, even if the FO had to go down the hatch and physically make the connection (not personally, with a cable :) ).

Solar flare... no idea, but it would potentially provide signal jamming.

Sudden destruction of the plane (if that's what occured) is most likely a human act, and you wouldn't bother making an EMP device, you'd just make a bomb.

Weren't there a few flight-related explosives warnings from DHS in the run up to the main Olympics? Probably not related but the only recent reference to air terrorism that I can think of.
 
TenEightyOne
Lightning strikes are engineered for and are extremely unlikely to destroy a plane. If the plane was gliding, it could make power. If it could make power, the power could be jacked in, even if the FO had to go down the hatch and physically make the connection (not personally, with a cable :) ).

Solar flare... no idea, but it would potentially provide signal jamming.

Sudden destruction of the plane (if that's what occured) is most likely a human act, and you wouldn't bother making an EMP device, you'd just make a bomb.

Weren't there a few flight-related explosives warnings from DHS in the run up to the main Olympics? Probably not related but the only recent reference to air terrorism that I can think of.
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EMP could destroy the circuits of any electronic device. If the circuits are fried, power becomes irrelevant.
 
jimipitbull
An EMP could result in all electronics failing. Lightning strike/ solar flare, or something man made could produce an EMP strong enough.
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At cruising altitude there isn't anything man-made that we know of that can be launched into the air and create and EMP burst like that. Unless you want to use a nuclear device to take out a single airplane...not only would that be obvious but a waste of that sort of tool and obviously not the culprit.

As for lightning planes are built to deal with those and are struck by lightning on occasion, reports have said that the weather was clear. As for solar flare, there is this thing called the ionosphere as well as magnetosphere that protects us from those types of things and wouldn't cause trouble to an airliner at cruising altitude.
 
jimipitbull
EMP could destroy the circuits of any electronic device. If the circuits are fried, power becomes irrelevant.
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Not so, aircraft (particularly those with Lockheed systems) have been designed with this in mind for years.

EMP can be shielded against and doesn't destroy 'hard-wiring'. Otherwise most fighters wouldn't be able to operate, they'd drop out of the sky when the first nuke went off.

The civilian requirements are a little different but rooted in the same engineering.
 
jimipitbull
Incorrect.

"An intense solar flare is being blamed for disrupting a NASA mission and could force airlines to reroute some flights."

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way...rth-thursday-northern-lights-may-expand-south
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Before I even click it I'm guessing that is a article on the January X class solar flare, and seeing as those are rare and can be predicted before they happen, that isn't what happened to this flight. Once again, and you can go research it yourself the magnetosphere and ionosphere protects from energy burst like solar flares and though they may mess with electronics on earth it is usually due to the satellites they hit that are above both levels of earths protection.

You post one single instance as if that's the standard for solar flares is what's incorrect here. Once again unless you have something regarding NOAA or some other organization talking about solar flares hitting earth yesterday, then the chances of it being the cause are zero.
 
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LMSCorvetteGT2
Before I even click it I'm guessing that is a article on the January X class solar flare, and seeing as those are rare and can be predicted before they happen, that isn't what happened to this flight. Once again, and you can go research it yourself the magnetosphere and ionosphere protects from energy burst like solar flares and those they may mess with electronics on earth it is usually due to the satellites they hit that are above both levels of earths protection.

You post one single instance as if that's the standard for solar flares is what's incorrect here. Once again unless you have something regarding NOAA or some other organization talking about solar flares hitting earth yesterday, then the chances of it being the cause are zero.
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There was a class M flare on the 8th (it's currently the 9th where I am), spike can be seen on the right hand side of graph
flares_20140308.png
 
jimipitbull
There was a class M flare on the 8th, spike can be seen on the right hand side of graph
flares_20140308.png
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Yes and do you know the location it mainly affected and can you cross reference it to the time the plane went missing. Also the bigger question is (since I assume you gave up on the other two) even if it was in the vicinity and around the same time, an m-class flare isn't strong enough to beat the magnetosphere, ionosphere, and atmosphere and through all that cripple an airliner with various protective layers itself to the point where it just up and vanishes.
 
LMSCorvetteGT2
Yes and do you know the location it mainly affected and can you cross reference it to the time the plane went missing. Also the bigger question is (since I assume you gave up on the other two) even if it was in the vicinity and around the same time, an m-class flare isn't strong enough to beat the magnetosphere, ionosphere, and atmosphere and through all that cripple an airliner with various protective layers itself to the point where it just up and vanishes.
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No, I will just wait for an official explanation from a higher authority.

Anyway, what's your theory, or possible scenarios?
 
jimipitbull
No, I will just wait for an official explanation from a higher authority.

Anyway, what's your theory, or possible scenarios?
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I already gave them, over correction of the plane by the pilots due to possible error in assessing what the problem was causing catastrophic failure that could have been avoided if proper protocol was taken as dictated. Or possible error in ground maintenance that could have been ignored thus causing a major event to take place resulting in failure. However, I don't have an explanation still for why the planes warning electronics would just up an fail and I think it is best to wait on the black box as well, but getting rid of the more obvious (im)possibilities is good thing to do I'd say.
 
jimipitbull
An EMP could result in all electronics failing. Lightning strike/ solar flare, or something man made could produce an EMP strong enough.
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I've been struck a few times while flying. It does make a wonderful show on the outside, but would have to be grounded for it to actually sizzle anything. Similar to how your car acts, electricity wraps around the car through metal contacts, and then passes to the ground by lowest point of metal or least resistance, whichever is first. You may have seen the video of the chasers driving into a storm and the camera is fried, but the camera itself is not designed to disperse electricity over boards and resistors and what else.

Another thought from a previous air related Emergency was a Boeing 74(forgot model) that was flying over open ocean. There were three or four rows that literally were wiped out from the side of the plane, however the plane was still in airworthy condition and could be flown. Now unless the whole side ripped off, I don't see that as a viable reason.

Until the wreckage is found, I'm not speculating anymore, as it leads to false hopes...
 
BBC reporting "4 suspect passengers" in their 'Breaking' feed, no more details on that.

Speculation's inevitable, I think some of the crazier theories can be ruled out by engineering and likelihood.

Here's what I think at the moment... it seems most likely that the plane was lost very quickly, that suggests a catastrophic event... the strange thing is the lack of any claim from terrorists that they perpertrated this, and it's hard to imagine a 777 just exploding due to any fault.

EDIT: That line has now gone from the Beeb feed, I found a Yahoo reference but it seems that there are just 4 suspect passports. The tickets were all bought from the same vendor but its a large carrier and a high volume route (they use a 777 on it). There's nothing else to say that the people using them were linked.

I imagine that in that part of the world it might not be so hard to travel regularly on fake papers if you know the right people. Scurrilous, I know.
 
TenEightyOne
BBC reporting "4 suspect passengers" in their 'Breaking' feed, no more details on that.

Speculation's inevitable, I think some of the crazier theories can be ruled out by engineering and likelihood.

Here's what I think at the moment... it seems most likely that the plane was lost very quickly, that suggests a catastrophic event... the strange thing is the lack of any claim from terrorists that they perpertrated this, and it's hard to imagine a 777 just exploding due to any fault.

EDIT: That line has now gone from the Beeb feed, I found a Yahoo reference but it seems that there are just 4 suspect passports. The tickets were all bought from the same vendor but its a large carrier and a high volume route (they use a 777 on it). There's nothing else to say that the people using them were linked.

I imagine that in that part of the world it might not be so hard to travel regularly on fake papers if you know the right people. Scurrilous, I know.
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Well some say (no TG reference..) that the two passports could've been a human smuggling OP.. But who knows?

Another thing is, in that part of the world they do not have the same regulations as the US/Europe has. Ever since I was 5 I always wanted to be a pilot and have an extensive background in the aviation business and still keep up with new regulations.. This shortage that is coming up is real, and it's real big. I'm at the decision in my Senior year of HS whether to pursue meteorology in a market with little demand and no foreseeable heavy influx, or be a mechanic and advance my way up. My father works for the worlds second largest airline but he doesn't like being put on the internet so that's all about him.

Anyways, there seems to be always something new with events like these. And lately a lot of it has been human error. And with as little hours as the FO had, even though the captain was suited for the aircraft, constant calculations occur in the flight deck to ensure the avionics are working as displayed. And as early as the flight was, something could've been misread, or not brought up. It has occurred before that FO and captains at times dislike each other, with such occurrences as a South American flight to New York where the FO only spoke English good enough for transmission but was forced to listen to the captain. I'm not saying that happened with this flight, but it is free game to think what happened...

Just keep in mind we are talking about 239 people that have literally disappeared from the Earth..
 
The search area has been expanded, with authorities working on the idea that when the plane deviated from its flightpath, the pilots were trying to turn back.
TenEightyOne
EDIT: That line has now gone from the Beeb feed, I found a Yahoo reference but it seems that there are just 4 suspect passports. The tickets were all bought from the same vendor but its a large carrier and a high volume route (they use a 777 on it). There's nothing else to say that the people using them were linked.
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The Malaysians have confirmed that they have been in contact with several intelligence agencies - and the FBI - around the world. They have not confirmed that this is a terrorist attack, but they have not ruled it out, either; they obviously need wreckage to be able to determine for certain. Either way, they will no doubt want to know what those four passengers were doing.

Watching an extract from a press conference at the moment. The local media keep trying to bait the authorities into calling it a terror attack.
 
The plane most definitely would've ran out of fuel by now, right? So they would've landed at an airport to refuel if it has been hijacked or somehow lost communication. But obviously, it hasn't landed. So:
A) it's at a private airport or
B) it has crashed ( :'C )
 
ProjectWHaT
The plane most definitely would've ran out of fuel by now, right? So they would've landed at an airport to refuel if it has been hijacked or somehow lost communication. But obviously, it hasn't landed. So:
A) it's at a private airport or
B) it has crashed ( :'C )
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It's been almost 24 hours and it's a 777 even at cruise speed it would have been out of fuel hours ago.
 
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