Minimum Wage

[UnoMOTO]

We here in colorado voted in a minimum wage increase tied to inflation. Which by itself isn't all that bad, but the problem was that it was written as a constitutional amendment. Now its locked in for...um...well...FOREVER! I don't think that the voters understood the long term effects of what they voted for. I'm guessing they just thought that people should be paid a higher wage and checked the yes box...grrrrr!

 

[FoolKiller]

We here in colorado voted in a minimum wage increase tied to inflation. Which by itself isn't all that bad, but the problem was that it was written as a constitutional amendment. Now its locked in for...um...well...FOREVER! I don't think that the voters understood the long term effects of what they voted for. I'm guessing they just thought that people should be paid a higher wage and checked the yes box...grrrrr!

So, in the event of deflation does it go back down?

I'm guessing not, which shows it is a hypocritical law created by politicians looking for votes and voted into law by people driven by greed.

 

[Swift]

So, in the event of deflation does it go back down?

I'm guessing not, which shows it is a hypocritical law created by politicians looking for votes and voted into law by people driven by greed.

Yep!

And since when is the minimum wage supposed to support a family? That's just lunacy. I've heard the argument that people on welfare make more then people that work full time on minimum wage. So instead of doing the logical thing, lowering welfare benefits, they raise minimum wage.

Why does our government want us all to be broke?

 

[Duke]

We here in colorado voted in a minimum wage increase tied to inflation. Which by itself isn't all that bad, but the problem was that it was written as a constitutional amendment. Now its locked in for...um...well...FOREVER!

Holy feedback loop, Batman!

 

[Sureboss]

I think a Minimum wage is vital, makes it possible for people to live off of working in poorly paid jobs.

 

[Swift]

I think a Minimum wage is vital, makes it possible for people to live off of working in poorly paid jobs.

Are poorly paid jobs made to "live" off of? I was under the impression they were for 17 year olds looking for spending/college money. But that's just me. I know it's not like that in all cases, but it should be in most.

 

[Danoff]

I think a Minimum wage is vital, makes it possible for people to live off of working in poorly paid jobs.

Where does it say that one's job must cover one's expenses? What human right is it that guarantees us the right to a living provided by others?

 

[Sureboss]

It doesn't say anywhere that one's job must cover one's expenses but you'd get no one working in the lower paid jobs anyway, just look at all the illegal immigrants used in fruit picking in the UK. They'll get a quid an hour at most.

You have to pay the people for the job or you wouldn't get the people working in jobs that need to be worked or you suffer huge problems.

 

[Swift]

It doesn't say anywhere that one's job must cover one's expenses but you'd get no one working in the lower paid jobs anyway, just look at all the illegal immigrants used in fruit picking in the UK. They'll get a quid an hour at most.

You have to pay the people for the job or you wouldn't get the people working in jobs that need to be worked or you suffer huge problems.

How does that counter what Danoff or I have said about the minimum wage not providing for the expenses of the workers?

 

[Sureboss]

Are poorly paid jobs made to "live" off of? I was under the impression they were for 17 year olds looking for spending/college money. But that's just me. I know it's not like that in all cases, but it should be in most.

No but some jobs aren't as proffitable as others, for example.

A fruit picker or a doctor?

Where does it say that one's job must cover one's expenses? What human right is it that guarantees us the right to a living provided by others?

If peoples jobs didn't pay them enough to live then whats the point in having a job? Or a civilised society for that matter.

The Minimum wage is important for keeping a healthy (living) population. It'd be unfeasible to pay everyone £1 an hour when it costs £200,000 for a house, etc.

 

[Swift]

No but some jobs aren't as proffitable as others, for example.

A fruit picker or a doctor?

Which one has an education that took tremendous time, energy and effort and which one could a 14 year old do with 3 minutes of instruction?

If peoples jobs didn't pay them enough to live then whats the point in having a job? Or a civilised society for that matter.

So it's the responsibility of mcdonald's to make sure all the employees financial needs are met?

How about starting at a job, getting education and experience to move up? That sounds like a good point to me.

The Minimum wage is important for keeping a healthy (living) population. It'd be unfeasible to pay everyone £1 an hour when it costs £200,000 for a house, etc.

There was a time, in the USA that workers were taken advantage of. Those times have gone, there are plenty of regulations that protect workers. If a job doesn't pay enough for you, get a different job. It's as simple as that. Then people come back with the,"what if that person CAN'T get a job to make more money?" Who's fault is that exactly?

 

[UnoMOTO]

Why does our government want us all to be broke?

They really don't care about the effects IMO. It just looks great for re-election to say that you increased the minumum wage. Its all about job security, tell them what they want to hear not what they need to hear.

I think a Minimum wage is vital, makes it possible for people to live off of working in poorly paid jobs.

One question to that statement. What do business owners do when they have to pay employees more money?

 

[FoolKiller]

No but some jobs aren't as proffitable as others, for example.

A fruit picker or a doctor?

Which job would you strive for if you wanted three kids, a big house, a sports car, and an SUV for carting all the rugrats in?

If peoples jobs didn't pay them enough to live then whats the point in having a job? Or a civilised society for that matter.

Not all jobs are for people to make a living on, or to be able to support a family. If that were the case then you would have teenagers and college students sitting at home on their butt until they graduated because there would be no jobs for them to make extra money in.

The Minimum wage is important for keeping a healthy (living) population. It'd be unfeasible to pay everyone £1 an hour when it costs £200,000 for a house, etc.

If everyone were paid that little money no house would cost that much and everyone would be making a living off of that.

Instead we have jobs where so little effort is required that there is no formal training and kids can do them. Why should you pay someone more than their labor is worth? Because they "need" it? If everyone were paid based on need, that is when civilization would fall apart.

 

[Danoff]

If a wage is too small to get people to do the work, they won't do it and the wage will go up. No minimum wage necessary.

 

[UnoMOTO]

If a wage is too small to get people to do the work, they won't do it and the wage will go up. No minimum wage necessary.

DING! we have a winna!

 

[Ev0 4 drifter]

Foolkiller, i see your point and i completely agree with you, i am 15 and i wash dishes for £5.40 an hour, it's not very hard so i do an 8 hour shift, i didn't need any formal training as such, just how to work the dish washer.

 

[Duke]

It'd be unfeasible to pay everyone £1 an hour when it costs £200,000 for a house, etc.

It'd ALSO be unfeasible to pay everyone £4 an hour when they're only adding £1 an hour in value to the company. Then it would cost £800,000 for a house. Except nobody would have a job because lots of businesses had gone broke paying £4 for £1 worth of labor.

 

[Sureboss]

Which one has an education that took tremendous time, energy and effort and which one could a 14 year old do with 3 minutes of instruction?


So it's the responsibility of mcdonald's to make sure all the employees financial needs are met?

How about starting at a job, getting education and experience to move up? That sounds like a good point to me.



There was a time, in the USA that workers were taken advantage of. Those times have gone, there are plenty of regulations that protect workers. If a job doesn't pay enough for you, get a different job. It's as simple as that. Then people come back with the,"what if that person CAN'T get a job to make more money?" Who's fault is that exactly?

Yes but there always have to be people doing the jobs that don't pay well.

 

[Duke]

Yes but there always have to be people doing the jobs that don't pay well.

Correctamundo... BUT, who says that pay has to be enough to raise a family and buy a house with?

 

[Sureboss]

Well no one.

But....

A dead worker isn't a very useful one is it?

 

[Danoff]

Well no one.

But....

A dead worker isn't a very useful one is it?

If you can't earn enough to survive in America there's obviously something either very wrong with you, or you're increadibly lazy. Either way minimum wage doesn't help. You either need serious care, or you deserve to die.

 

[Sureboss]

I think that's where the different living costs come into it.

The US is so much cheaper to live in the UK. When we pay about £1,100 in council taxes (if you're lucky it's often more), the average tax bracket is 25%, the price of fuel (for heating as well as others).

Despite our wealth we struggle as a country with costs, look at our NHS that's in tatters, the pensioners who don't get enough money to pay the gas bill and freeze to death, etc.

Oh the joys of an incompetant government who'd rather spend money on a Nuclear deterrant and a war, which has an estimated cost (both updating Trident and Iraq/Afghanistan) at the moment of around £80 Billion with £75 Billion of that going on trident over 25 years.

That's for another time though.

Minimum wage I think is needed in the UK, I can't comment for the US as I've never lived there. I love being British but boy do we need a competant government or what.

 

[Danoff]

I think that's where the different living costs come into it.

The US is so much cheaper to live in the UK. When we pay about £1,100 in council taxes (if you're lucky it's often more), the average tax bracket is 25%, the price of fuel (for heating as well as others).

Yes well you have a large government with lots of intrusion and inefficiency. That comes with a big bill.

Despite our wealth we struggle as a country with costs, look at our NHS that's in tatters, the pensioners who don't get enough money to pay the gas bill and freeze to death, etc.

My guess is that you're thinking the NHS just needs a little more tax money and it'll be in good shape. Meanwhile the pensioners are freezing to death through no fault of their own. It's not like they should have thought ahead to retirement when considering how much money they needed.

Minimum wage I think is needed in the UK, I can't comment for the US as I've never lived there. I love being British but boy do we need a competant government or what.

Well I can attest to the fact that minimum wage isn't needed in America. But I can also assure you that it's an immoral policy that's bad for poor people.

Minimum wage causes unemployment. Higher wages mean fewer jobs - which means more people starving in the streets. This time they aren't starving because they have no skills or because they're lazy, they're starving because someone else is getting paid more than they're worth.

If you have one person who is willing to work for x amount, and you have another person who is willing to pay that same x amount for the job - you have a fair agreement. I see no reason that the government should interfere with that and force the agreement into unfairness.

 

[Tornado]

So, in the event of deflation does it go back down?

How often does deflation happen? Honestly?

 

[Philly]

Minimum wage causes unemployment. Higher wages mean fewer jobs - which means more people starving in the streets. This time they aren't starving because they have no skills or because they're lazy, they're starving because someone else is getting paid more than they're worth.

I'm not seeing the connection. If they paid one worker half of what they earn now, I'm pretty sure they won't hire another worker to do the same work as well. Minimum wage would keep the same number employed, but pay each one more.

I see minimum wage as having more of an application to big business. Biz owners would pay their workers dirt cheap. They would pay a price at which workers could live, but in the worst conditions. Workers were paid poorly so the business owners could get more profit. In this situation, minimum wage is very useful because the money exists, and in the rich man's hands, it is doing nothing useful. Putting it in the poor man's hands makes life more bearable and can really save lives.

 

[Danoff]

I'm not seeing the connection. If they paid one worker half of what they earn now, I'm pretty sure they won't hire another worker to do the same work as well. Minimum wage would keep the same number employed, but pay each one more.

I see minimum wage as having more of an application to big business. Biz owners would pay their workers dirt cheap. They would pay a price at which workers could live, but in the worst conditions. Workers were paid poorly so the business owners could get more profit. In this situation, minimum wage is very useful because the money exists, and in the rich man's hands, it is doing nothing useful. Putting it in the poor man's hands makes life more bearable and can really save lives.

This post ^^ misunderstands the economics of running a business. Business owners reinvest in their businesses because they believe it will make them more money than other investments. If you believe someone else will earn you more money for a given amount invested, you'd invest with them instead of starting a business in the first place. Business owners like to grow their business, because it means more profit. Growing means hiring more workers to process the additional work. This is what rich business owners do with their money, they create jobs.

If you have a $10/hr budget for grocery sackers and the minimum wage tells you that you have to pay each one $8, you'll invest $8 in one sacker and find somewhere else to invest the extra $2. If minimum wage doesn't tell you you have to pay each one $8, you might pay one $8 anyway because you don't like the applicants you get for $5. But if you're ok with the applicants you get for $5/hr, you'll hire 2. And that's how minimum wage creates unemployment.

Companies don't significantly alter thier payroll budget to account for costs. They significantly alter the number of employees to bring them into line with their income.

Obviously that oversimplifies the situation. But the bottom line is that when companies go shopping for new employees, they do so with a (nearly) fixed budget. Cheaper employees generally means more employees hired.

 

[Omnis]

It makes me happy to see so many libertarian capitalists battling the left on the boards here.

Get money.

 

[Swift]

It makes me happy to see so many libertarian capitalists battling the left on the boards here.

Get money.

Not sure what you mean by that, Omins. you being sarcastic or what?

 

[Philly]

If you have a $10/hr budget for grocery sackers and the minimum wage tells you that you have to pay each one $8, you'll invest $8 in one sacker and find somewhere else to invest the extra $2. If minimum wage doesn't tell you you have to pay each one $8, you might pay one $8 anyway because you don't like the applicants you get for $5. But if you're ok with the applicants you get for $5/hr, you'll hire 2. And that's how minimum wage creates unemployment.

But if you hire two sackers for $5 each, then you would need two sackers. You would then also hire two for $16 total if there was a min. wage. The costco theory of paying less per unit the more you buy doesn't really translate here. If you had two sackers for $10 total, when you only need one, one would just be sitting around. Minimum wage just draws from the revenues of the company, and hopefully the upper reaches that already make tons are smart enough to draw from their excessive profits.

I'm not a business major or very knowledgeable on business, but this makes sense to me.

EDIT: How about it this way: Would a business rather have one worker for $8 per hour, or two for $10 total per hour if that business only needs one more worker?

 

[Zrow]

Nah, they'll just hire less workers. Most businesses run on a pretty small profit margin.