Most important items in a racing Rig?

[left888]

But I don't see the point in you comparing your strength to mine.
I think you failed the point I tried to make of how motors response is effected the closer it gets to its maximum power output. It's something I picked up from the SMS devs.
Maybe as a fellow native English speaker either eKretz or RacerXX would be able to explain it more properly to you. They have more knowledge in their pinky about this matter than myself as a whole.

My point is that if I can set the FFB on my two T500's to a point where even I have trouble maintaining control of the wheel. It is probably because ..

1) the games you are playing don't properly utilize the FFB available in the motor(s) of these wheels. Example "Dirt 3" I find the FFB on my T500 almost no existent.

pCARS, while everyone knows it's still (pre) alpha it hasn't had a decent FFB profile on the T500 (again) Well early on it did have a decent profile then they decided to change it? . That leaves me with the two Sims/tech preview, iRacing and Assetto Corsa. Both of these sims I have no problem setting the FFB to arm jarring proportions.

2) So this leads me to conclude that either you are much stronger then myself and any FFB you have tried in "any" sim simply doesn't offer any challenge and the immersion isn't there for you. However based on my lifestyle, I have been active in sports since the age of 4. Hockey, skiing, water & snow. Boxing, golf, baseball and many others. Then the fact I haven't lost a left handed arm wrestle .. well ever, at least in my formidable years .

So based on that I have to wonder if the Sims I mentioned have strong enough FFB for me and not you. Then either the games you play don't have the same level of FFB as the games I play or perhaps you have faulty wheels. BTW I have let able body friends race in my rig and they had difficulty steering when I turned up the FFB.

This is why I compared my strength to yours.

Even the T500, CSR Elite and CSW are still massively underpowered in my opinion

 

[LogiForce]

I just got a new retail CSW from Fanatec earlier this month, so it's not a faulty wheel.
Also my T500 works fine still.

Maybe it's the way FFB is done in games, I don't know. But the fact is that I find that if I turn up the overal force strength on either wheels, the subtilities tend to disappear under it.
So personally I try to find the best mix of strength versus what I like for what I like in a mix of effects coming through.

What my thought was about using a stronger motor, and this comes from the Bodnar wheel's strength. Is that the more power a motor has, the easier it can change direction at lower than its maximum power output. And the easier it does change direction, the more effects you get.
Kinda like driving your speakers. The easier you can drive them, the more precise and good they will sound.
Of course I could be totally wrong about this concept, but it's just a thought.

 

[LeMansAid]

Can this be split into two categories I wonder? Belief (added immersion), and the suspension of disbelief?

For me, aspects pertaining to the suspension of disbelief are of primary importance as the human mind is amazing, and very effectively fills in gaps as long as nothing is overtly distracting. Some of this is extremely relative however. If I would have jumped straight from Test Drive on C64 to say Gran Turismo 1, I would have sworn that I was viewing a photorealistic environment, ie. mind filling gaps = suspension of disbelief. In reverse: go from say Project Cars back to GT1 and it will look anything but photorealistic, ie. dearth of what became the benchmark = lack of suspension of disbelief.

In my book, number one is a stable rig. Properly stable. I don't care about the visual aesthetics of it at all, so mine is made up of mostly free of charge re-purposed junk, but it does not move in the slightest. I find unwanted movement very distracting.

Then it's maybe belt drive vs gears, another s.o.d. issue, whereby gear driven would bug me to no end.

Display? The poor motion handling of lcds would drive me nuts. Technically, I could run triple Sony KV-HR36M31 hd crts as I have three, but that would hardly be practical. At around 100kg each, I would like to see them on a full motion rig!!! Not that I have motion. Oh, and I quite readily carry them around if that factors into the extremely warranted discussion on strength (shakes head).

As Mr Latte wrote, it's about what is most important to the individual. Put the time and expense in to the areas you deem crucial.

On sound: if using headphones, I certainly concur with Logi on steering clear of gaming brand names. Go for massive soundstage, open back headphones will be the go for this (I use Audio Techica AD900X). If you do not have a spare $4000 for a Smyth Realiser, grab an Astro Mixamp or equivilent for surround decoding. A stand alone clip on mic can easily be purchased.

Overall logic: less of what you hate is sometimes worth more than more of what you love.

 

[left888]

I would agree with that, however either I misread what you wrote or you mis-wrote what I read. I read into it that you said no wheel had strong enough FFB. I often wondered what members were quoting their settings on a particular wheel. I always thought they are too high.

I always set my T500 on the fly while racing in "the service" I've always said that the T500's best attribute was it's ability to feel all the little nuances in the road, like no other wheel I have tried. From the tiniest of bumps to a bone jarring strip, it delivers immersion beautifully.

Kinda like driving your speakers. The easier you can drive them, the more precise and good they will sound.

 

[LogiForce]

I would agree with that, however either I misread what you wrote or you mis-wrote what I read. I read into it that you said no wheel had strong enough FFB. I often wondered what members were quoting their settings on a particular wheel. I always thought they are too high.

I always set my T500 on the fly while racing in "the service" I've always said that the T500's best attribute was it's ability to feel all the little nuances in the road, like no other wheel I have tried. From the tiniest of bumps to a bone jarring strip, it delivers immersion beautifully.

Ah, I meant consumer wheels within a below 1k price range. I should have been more thorough in voicing what I meant exactly. Apologies for that.

I agree with you on the T500. The fact that it has a strong motor with skewed armature and ball bearings helps a lot in smooth power transmission. Plus the fact that the toothed drivebelt of the Gates company delivers a direct and highly accurate transfer of that power to the wheel axle (and wheel). The only downside is the belt, you can feel the teeth grabbing into the gears. Causing a cogging effect that does muffle some of the effects a bit.

Also what I like to do sometimes, with the T500, is add some dampening. I think some effects are a bit too sharp. So I just add a tiny fraction of dampening, to get the sharp ends off of the effect so to speak.
One type effect would be a sawtooth wave type of effect, which is very sharp. However, in nature you always have smooth transitions of forces no matter how abrupt they seem. This is why I want to round off the tips of effects like the sawtooth effect.

The CSW has a natural dampening to it. I am not sure if it's firmware or hardware related.
It's a little less sharp than a T500, but I found that (especially with my retail base) you could feel just as much with the T500.
The key really lies in maintaining the correct amount of belt tension, and the balance of belt tension between both belts.
Too weak of a belt tension and you get too much slippage easily with the v-belts, giving a heavy dampening with little feedback. Too much belt tension causes that the wheel/motors do not turn freely enough in the bearings. You get good feedback, but the motors are getting too hot as they get over worked and you can't turn the wheel fast enough when it matters. So for drifting and/or rally it wouldn't be ideal. Not to talk about endurance races and the motors loosing power due to them getting to hot.

So yeah, to keep it short. Keeping the correct belt tension with the CSW is key but is not a worry with the T500. And in the end it is really up to tastes and preferences which of the two competitors the OP or anyone else might prefer.

 

[lemansfanatic]

Every thread eventually becomes CSW vs T500RS

 

[LogiForce]

Every thread eventually becomes CSW vs T500RS

Yeah, as they are popular.
Quite undecided which is better though.

Change of topic for the OP or interested parties.
For lower price ranges let's talk about G27 vs CSR/Porsche wheels. If I had to advice someone, even without direct experience with the latter wheels, I think I would say that technically the Fanatecs have the advantage of belt drive and no deadzone (and xbox support of course, except the gt3).
Though this is just my opinion and based on what I would choose. I am sure that people that owned both might think differently.

 

[Gunstar]

Every thread eventually becomes CSW vs T500RS

The eternal question.

 

[RacerXX]

I'd like to see both the CSW/Elite and T500rs have wheel drag as low as the G25/G27. I bought a G25 last weekend for "research" and find it loud and dead-zoney but with a nice low amount of drag. I found about 75 grams at it's rim OD.

At first glance I don't think you can massively reduce a T500's drag since it already uses low drag but slightly coggy belts. However I have not had a chance to mod one so who knows.

There is some nice potential to cut the CSW/Elite's drag. If you do so significantly, you wind up making the wheel faster on the race track. Time and time again I find myself breaking old benchmark lap times when I run my Elite in low-drag mode. In some cases very difficult segments become fairly straightforward. I think this is because wheel drag delays/dampens/slows driver input intent. It's quite noticeable in rally / drift however it helps in all forms of car control where precision and occasional fast countersteer is useful.

 

[solidghost]

I have to say.. I am glad i started this thread. I found everyone's opinions great. Thank you.

I thought about getting a wheel stand and the Geko seat but after reading everyones opinion on how much they want a sturdy rig with a nice weel/pedal kit I am thinking that the custom rig from Simexperience along with sim vibe will be best.

 

[solidghost]

By the way.. what site do you guys recommend when buying wheels and pedals. Im in the US.

 

[readyfe]

I have to say.. I am glad i started this thread. I found everyone's opinions great. Thank you.

I thought about getting a wheel stand and the Geko seat but after reading everyones opinion on how much they want a sturdy rig with a nice weel/pedal kit I am thinking that the custom rig from Simexperience along with sim vibe will be best.

Mate, I survived a long time with a Rennsport wheel stand and a garden chair - it did a great job for a long time in the living room, until I had a dedicated area which then meant I could justify a permanent rig. Because I knew if I had to move it out and then back every time I wanted to race I would never be bothered.

Don't write off the wheel stand option - as it's a very cheap first step that allows you to put your money in a better wheel and pedal combo.

Hope this helps.

 

[Gunstar]

Same here, from shortly after GT5 launch until just a few days ago my whole rig (3 different wheels, 2 different seats, 3 different monitor setups) was all built around a Rennsport stand. Cheap and easy, just like I like 'em. =)

As for a site to order from, it depends on what you like, but Amazon seems to have most of what you want, unless you want Fanatec, and then Fanatec.com seems like a safe bet.

 

[Mr Latte]

I have to say.. I am glad i started this thread. I found everyone's opinions great. Thank you.

I thought about getting a wheel stand and the Geko seat but after reading everyones opinion on how much they want a sturdy rig with a nice weel/pedal kit I am thinking that the custom rig from Simexperience along with sim vibe will be best.

They do offer a superb range of packages with great software/front end to run it. Additionally Berney Villers pushed hard for p/cars support and when they made that happen he was amongst the first few motion company's to support it and always is for new titles.

Got to commend them on that front.

 

[oqvist]

I would rate comfort highest. That is the biggest difference with a good adjustable cockpit vs a desktop racing setup. You can run super wheels and pedals from an office setup as well but how fun is it when it start to hurt?.

So rig it need to be as solid as possible. Ideally you should be able to tackle it and it won´t budge but that costs money.

2/3. wheel and pedals. It depend though for wheel you can go quite cheap and be fully competible but the feel from a G27 for example is really lackluster. Pedals can do a bigger difference if you find onces that suit you in consistancy and also comfort of course.

2/3. display/pc including good soundcard/speakers so you don´t get crap audio.

4. Everything else is just extras. I enjoyed bass shakers a lot. A cheap mans motion system. Could be combined with such setups as well.

 

[VetteZR1]

I don't have the room for a dedicated area for racing so I built my rig on a rolling platform. It's 32X60 and rolls to the corner when not in use (very wife friendly). Of course this won't work with a full blown rig (3 screens ect.), but I've got an rSeat,T500, TH8, and a buttkicker all in a compact package that can be rolled out of the way when not in use. Carpet the platform, manage all the cables and you have a good looking rig that is very functional.