MR Corvette C8 - General Discussion

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Clarkson hasn't even been on Top Gear for four years now. You don't have to try so hard.
So Clarkson just instantly comes inside your mind again when I started to mention about push rods once more? Come on. Don't be ridiculous. :lol:

It isn't about Clarkson or whatever it is about that freaking stuff. We're talking about a high performance vehicle here, right? I just find GM is still being GM today even when it comes to building their high performance cars.

If it isn't broke, and still works well, don't fix it. Besides, the fact that it's being changed from FR to MR should be enough to call it an all new model, but I seriously doubt that you were thinking of that while trying to get across the snark? Come on man.
"Should be enough to call it an all new model."

Seriously, I have nothing to say about that one. :lol:

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You're not doing a particularly good job of making it sound like you aren't just parroting stuff he used to say. Particularly when you've already had this explained to you.







"GM being GM" would be them taking their perfectly suitable engine that they already have with the LT1, and the economies of sale that they have from its design even if it needs to be modified for transverse mounting, and throwing it out so they can instead use something designed with a fraction of the budget that they can make smug press releases about the specific output or the number of cylinders/valves or construction materials or whatever.


Like they did with the HT4100.

Like they did with the LC3.

Like they did with the LH2.

Like they did with the LS4.

Like they did with the (90s) L99.

Like they did with the LQ1.

Like they did with the LF4.

Like they did with the L81.




The only time they chased such a target where the net result wasn't worse than if they hadn't done anything at all was the LT5; probably because they had nearly nothing to do with its development.
 
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Ugh, that latest leak looks like those old Bahar Lotus concepts made real. It's getting worse...



I'm going to guess it's a move to keep price hikes as small as possible. There's nothing inherently wrong with the design either, especially the use of pushrods.
That leak is just a blurred out render of an artist named Chazcron, it was modified and blurred to look real by the YouTuber Streetspeed. Just look at the lighting on the car.
 
So Clarkson just instantly comes inside your mind again when I started to mention about push rods once more? Come on. Don't be ridiculous. :lol:

It isn't about Clarkson or whatever it is about that freaking stuff. We're talking about a high performance vehicle here, right? I just find GM is still being GM today even when it comes to building their high performance cars.

Alright, so what counts against the Vette’s engines in terms of high performance? And no, “GM being GM” isn’t actually a point.

If you’re going to make lazy cliched arguments, expect to be called out on them.


"Should be enough to call it an all new model."

Seriously, I have nothing to say about that one. :lol:

He has a point. For all intents and purposes, this is an all-new car. It’s the single biggest platform change in the history of the Corvette, but you’re focusing on the fact its engine shares the same basic architecture and displacement as the car it replaced to apparently disqualify it?

I can only imagine what does qualify in your world, then. Certainly not the F8 Tributo, 992, new 3-series, or Chiron.
 
I mean, make jokes about GM being GM when they are actually warranted. Not when there is no point to making an all new engine when the one that they have is cheaper to produce in relation to the massive change that is changing from FR to MR, and still actually, y'know, works wonderfully.

But to basically barge into the thread and go 'lol GM, right guise?!' when it's been explained before, and that the reason for doing so is more or less sound really just says a lot about you.
 
Lol I'm not making jokes about GM.

I was just pointing out about how long they've been utilizing the same dated pushrod setup already for the bigger engines for several years and sorry to say but I really just can't overlook that, regardless of something that's ideal found in them, whether it's cheap to produce, easy to configure or what more.

I know I would be lying if I'm saying the opposite about the setup, otherwise. So, to me, in that case that's why I said GM is still being the same like how they used to be until even now.

The fact is most of the high end cars and ordinary cars being produced today are already utilizing a modern OHC setup which can provide a good, better performance over traditional OHV setups.

Probably GM could do the same for most of their offerings by now and I think it wouldn't be such a bad idea at all, I suppose. But then again, you know that 'why fix if it ain't broke' mentality.

I wouldn't go far to say about it anymore since the topic is straying off topic already but it seems that this all-new C8 Corvette will also utilize an all-new 5.5L Twin Turbo OHC motor for the high end variants, which is good news.

Might just wait to hear about it more in the next few days.
 
Lol I'm not making jokes about GM.

Considering your tone in the initial comments, if it wasn't jokes, then it certainly could be interpreted as 'man, GM is just backwards'

I was just pointing out about how long they've been utilizing the same dated pushrod setup already for the bigger engines for several years and sorry to say but I really just can't overlook that, regardless of something that's ideal found on them, whether it's cheap to produce, easy to configure or what more.

Again, as it has been described to you, both in this thread and before, actually, the reasons for GM continuing to use the LT1 is sound. It's on old tech, sure, but it works, and the reasons for keeping it are numerous over just throwing out the baby with the bath water because some guy thinks pushrods are outdated, or whatever.
 
Again, as it has been described to you, both in this thread and before, actually, the reasons for GM continuing to use the LT1 is sound. It's on old tech, sure, but it works, and the reasons for keeping it are numerous over just throwing out the baby with the bath water because some guy thinks pushrods are outdated, or whatever.
The sound? What do you mean? There's not much of these beasts existing in our homeland and if there is, then it's only once in a blue moon to spot one of these in our roads but I would tell it's really a very rare sight here.

So admittedly, I still have no clue about that yet as I've never even got to see one so closely IRL.
 
The sound? What do you mean? There's not much of these beasts existing in our homeland and if there is, then it's only once in a blue moon to spot one of these in our roads.

I have a feeling that point flew over your head.

Then lets put it in simpler terms. There is no point to changing the LT1, none. If this was some absolutely ****** engine, sure. But the LT1 works. Considering the massive change already present with the switch from FR to MR, it's good then that the main engine that will be powering the more or less base models is in good working order.

To change the engine because some guy not even in GM's main market thinks that pushrods are antiquated tech is just absolutely silly.
 
I have a feeling that point flew over your head.

Then lets put it in simpler terms. There is no point to changing the LT1, none. If this was some absolutely ****** engine, sure. But the LT1 works. Considering the massive change already present with the switch from FR to MR, it's good then that the main engine that will be powering the more or less base models is in good working order.

To change the engine because some guy not even in GM's main market thinks that pushrods are antiquated tech is just absolutely silly.
So you're saying that this old, push rod designed V8 engine is exceptional compared to the other similar push rod motors so that's why even today, it is still being utilized by GM? Wews. I think I got that one.

So that's why they still offer them for the entry level variants of their performance cars.
 
So you're saying that this old, push rod designed V8 engine is exceptional compared to the other similar push rod motors so that's why even today, it is still being utilized? Wew.

I'm not saying that. I'm saying that there is no point in trying to change what isn't broken because, as Tornado said:

"GM being GM" would be them taking their perfectly suitable engine that they already have with the LT1, and the economies of sale that they have from its design even if it needs to be modified for transverse mounting, and throwing it out so they can instead use something designed with a fraction of the budget that they can make smug press releases about the specific output or the number of cylinders/valves or construction materials or whatever.

There are good reasons as to why GM is doing what they're doing. Would it be nice to have a new engine alongside a new platform and a new layout? Absolutely! But there's no need for it at the moment, and there's certainly no need for GM to dump even more money on building an engine when the one that they have works perfectly fine, if not a bit long in the tooth with regards to the tech it uses.

It really feels like you're trying to discount the performance aspects of the C8 just via the engine it uses, which is just silly, and as already mentioned, just reeks of you trying to be some Clarkson wannabe jokester. The way you're trying to double back on your arguments, and then go at me for explaining why the reasoning is more or less sound from a business perspective, just confirms it in my mind.
 
It really feels like you're trying to discount the performance aspects of the C8 just via the engine it uses, which is just silly, and as already mentioned, just reeks of you trying to be some Clarkson wannabe jokester. The way you're trying to double back on your arguments, and then go at me for explaining why the reasoning is more or less sound from a business perspective, just confirms it in my mind.
Damn, there goes that Clarkson thing again, just because my point of view about it is still different from yours and the others since I'm still gathering more knowledge about this engine yet. Btw, I'm not even attempting to back up some arguments when I said my previous but whatever. :ouch::rolleyes:

Anyway, I'm moving on. I'm not going to talk about this for any longer. I will just wait and see to learn more about the new C8.
 
They mostly had V12 engines that came in different displacements.
That doesn't change the fact the block itself remained the same nearly 5 decades and went into multiple models until L539 came around.

If you want another example of why your statement is off about calling something "all-new but has a decade-old block", when the LP400 Countach arrived in 1974, the 3.9 V12 had turned 8 years old, originally debuting back in 1966 in the 400GT, a front-engine grand tourer. At that point in '74, the engine had only gained .4 liters in size and an extra 100 horsepower in its 10 years of existence from its conception in the '64 GT350.
 
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GM LS7 - 7 Liters of displacement, 200kg, 505hp, 595Nm = 28.5kg/liter, 2.5hp/kg, 3.0Nm/kg
BMW S65 - 4 Liters of displacement, 204kg, 420hp, 400Nm = 51kg/liter, 2.05hp/kg, 1.96Nm/kg

Sure seems like GM's engineers fit a lot more displacement, power, and torque into their 200kg engine than BMW did. And BMW's V8 is on the lighter side for DOHC V8. I couldn't immediately find exterior dimensions of the S65, but have a look at the Toyota 1UZ (DOHC) next to an LS1 (OHV)...

rS2yXsg.jpg
 
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GM LS7 - 7 Liters of displacement, 200kg, 505hp, 595Nm = 28.5kg/liter, 2.5hp/kg, 3.0Nm/kg
BMW S65 - 4 Liters of displacement, 204kg, 420hp, 400Nm = 51kg/liter, 2.05hp/kg, 1.96Nm/kg

Sure seems like GM's engineers fit a lot more displacement, power, and torque into their 200kg engine than BMW did. And BMW's V8 is on the lighter side for DOHC V8. I couldn't immediately find exterior dimensions of the S65, but have a look at the Toyota 1UZ (DOHC) next to an LS1 (OHV)...

rS2yXsg.jpg

I have seen that sight in real life. I was used to seeing quirky things in the automotive world, but the size difference between those 2 engines is just ridiculous.
 
If it looks anything like the sneak peeks and renders do, it's going to be massively generic. Like mid-2000s generic. Proto Spira generic.
 
the same dated pushrod setup

*snip*

a modern OHC setup which can provide a good, better performance over traditional OHV setups.

Modern? The DOHC approach is 107 years old.

@Eunos_Cosmo has perfectly illustrated the advantages of refining an OHV design. Hopefully that puts the old “DOHC is always better” stereotype to bed.
 
That doesn't change the fact the block itself remained the same nearly 5 decades and went into multiple models until L539 came around.

If you want another example of why your statement is off about calling something "all-new but has a decade-old block", when the LP400 Countach arrived in 1974, the 3.9 V12 had turned 8 years old, originally debuting back in 1966 in the 400GT, a front-engine grand tourer. At that point in '74, the engine had only gained .4 liters in size and an extra 100 horsepower in its 10 years of existence from its conception in the '64 GT350.
I never said that it wasn't. People may have a hard time knowing it's actually the same engine block though unless they know and are familiar about it or if they have thoroughly inspected the engines which have differing CCs.

Modern? The DOHC approach is 107 years old.

@Eunos_Cosmo has perfectly illustrated the advantages of refining an OHV design. Hopefully that puts the old “DOHC is always better” stereotype to bed.
I can't disagree with that. Both may be old but the point there is, OHC design is still fresher than OHV design and in this era, the latter has been outnumbered by the former when it comes to which setup many manufacturers choose in valvetrain configurations.

And regarding with the benefits of the said OHV engine, I guess the compactness that comes with it is one main thing that attracts many enthusiasts or engine specialists about it.

I think I have watched a video before about a swapped engine on a Pontiac Solstice and it was mentioned there that they have fitted it with a LS3 motor. And take note, it was a much smaller coupe than the Corvette.
 
I never said that it wasn't. People may have a hard time knowing it's actually the same engine block though unless they know and are familiar about it or if they have thoroughly inspected the engines which have differing CCs.


I can't disagree with that. Both may be old but the point there is, OHC design is still fresher than OHV design and in this era, the latter has been outnumbered by the former when it comes to which setup many manufacturers choose in valvetrain configurations.

And regarding with the benefits of the said OHV engine, I guess the compactness that comes with it is one main thing that attracts many enthusiasts or engine specialists about it.

I think I have watched a video before about a swapped engine on a Pontiac Solstice and it was mentioned there that they have fitted it with a LS3 motor. And take note, it was a much smaller coupe than the Corvette.

"OHC is better because it's OHC!"

Also reminds me of:

Secretary of State: But Brawndo's got what plants crave.
Secretary of Energy: Yeah, it's got electrolytes.
Joe: What are electrolytes? Do you even know?
Secretary of State: It's what they use to make Brawndo.
Joe: Yeah, but why do they use them to make Brawndo?
Secretary of Defense: 'Cause Brawndo's got electrolytes.
 
*Sigh*

It's pretty much useless to talk about it anymore at this point. :indiff:
Was it ever anything but? You might not like it for whatever reason ("outdated" is a rather asinine and frankly unfounded one), but OHV has very specific advantages over OHC, and not simply those revolving around manufacture and reliability owed to its simplicity. There are definite performance advantages such as lower center of gravity, reduced rotating mass, reduced weight when capacity and materials are equal, and smaller overall size which means less space is required to house it and that affects every single aspect of vehicle design.
 
So you're saying that this old, push rod designed V8 engine is exceptional compared to the other similar push rod motors so that's why even today, it is still being utilized by GM?
It's an exceptional engine, period. It's very fuel efficient for the power it makes. It's very light. It's very compact. It's very cost effective to produce. Other than some occasional problems with the cylinder deactivation, it's very reliable. There's a reason that it's a common swap into basically anything it will fit in, and why the list of things it will fit in is much more extensive than, say, a Ford Modular.
GM, already pouring a massive amount of cash into a the biggest redesign the Corvette has had in 22 years (though it would argue against it being as big of a clean sheet as the C5 was, mid engined or not), would do very well to not try to overreach and also try to throw out some untested engine in a car that will act as their flagship. They already had that problem with the C7.


Let's go back to 2005. You're trying to Jumpstart the Cadillac division by launching a flagship Mercedes Benz SL competitor. It will more than have the performance credentials, since it is being built off of the bones of the brand new Corvette C6. You're going all out to make it the best car the brand has had in 20 years. How do you power it? Do you choose the "modern" 32 valve DOHC engine that you've just updated with stuff like VVT? Or do you use the one that the Corvette already has, the "dated" pushrod setup?

The former? Great. Enjoy your Northstar. Have 80 less horsepower, about 5 less MPG, a quart of oil consumption every 1200 miles and 60 extra pounds sitting higher up on the front axle.



Let's go back to just before the millennium. You're GM, trying to Jumpstart the Cadillac division with an imported model to slot in as the entry level to compliment the new Seville. You have two cars to choose from to do this from different markets. Same platform for both. Same rough market position for both. Same horsepower for both. One market version has a "modern" twin cam V6 that's only three years old. The other market version has a "dated" pushrod V6 that (more or less) dates from 1962. Which one do you choose to localize for the American market?

I assume you chose the former, because OHC. Congratulations on releasing the Catera. You can look forward to endless warranty claims and lawsuits over that drivetrain for doing exactly what GM did in 1997.




Go back a bit further. You're GM, trying to Jumpstart the sales on your GM-10 platform cars with a new performance version to take on the Taurus SHO. You have two engines to do this with. One "modern" V6 with its shiny new DOHC head. The other a "dated" pushrod V6 that (more or less) dates from 1962 (yes, the same one) which is half a liter larger and needs a supercharger to match the output of the former.

Which one do you choose to put in your SHO competitor? The former? Congratulations. You've equipped an engine that requires the intake removed to change the spark plugs. It has two timing belts and a timing chain. You'll be cursed by dealers and repair shops for decades. Make sure you keep building it long after the "dated" pushrod V6 is updated to be similarly powerful naturally aspirated and 70 pounds lighter (with significantly better fuel mileage) than the maintenance hell you unleashed on an unsuspecting public.



Go back one more time. You need to downsize. You've no choice. Your attempts at early variable displacement and diesel engines were a disaster. You need a new engine for the Cadillac range. Only the best will do. Tick off all the boxes you can feasibly do. All aluminum construction. Standard fuel injection. 8 cylinders. Nothing less for Cadillac, and no one else can have it.


Congratulations. You've made made the High Technology engine. On the rare occasion that it's actually running properly and not grenading under the hood of every car you've sold it in for half a decade, hopefully the people who literally paid Cadillac money (back before that meant with thousands of dollars of incentives) don't find out that the "dated" pushrod V6 that (more or less) dates from 1962 (yes, again, the same one) that is in the cheaper Buicks and Oldsmobile that you already had is both more powerful and not a time bomb as the all new engine you put in all of your marketing.




Hopefully the point is gotten.
 
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VXR
If it looks anything like the sneak peeks and renders do, it's going to be massively generic. Like mid-2000s generic. Proto Spira generic.
Oh wow, I've not thought about that car in years. Was genuinely one of my favourite cars in GT4. Not that a new Corvette should necessarily look like it, but still...

Oullim_Motors_Spirra_Prototype_'04.jpg
 
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