MS vs. Apple: The epiphany

Cant Agree with that, MS is doing loads of hardware Recently

And one of the greatest Things of apple is their Software, Mac OS and iOs.

And you dont have to choose, you can have both in the same machine, if you own a Mac then you have bootcamp, if dont, Build yourself a Hackingtosh Like I did :lol:
 
The Mac vs PC debate is something that people seem to love to exaggerate. The picture that started this thread is an excellent example of this concept, and a lot of the discussion afterwards furthers it.

I am a mac person. My parents had owned macs there entire life and had made the decision to only own macs in the household. Therefore its what i grew up on and the system that I knew the best. As I went through my teen years I used windows on and off, and was more turned off by windows because it was a system I was unfamiliar with. I feel that this was the case for many people in the early half of the 2000's when confronted with the shiny new osx. Then I went to college and I had to use windows more frequently because of the "windows only" applications in the engineering department. This changed the way I thought about the mac/windows comparison. From my personal experience, along with the experiences that i have collected from my peers I think I can create a more accurate comparison.

Windows is a supercar, but not just any supercar. It can go the absolute fastest compared to any other car. Its panels can be replaced and reformed into an almost infinite amount of shapes, depending on the taste of the driver. However fairly frequently you will have to take it to the shop in order to fix something that, if not fixed, will prevent your car from running. If you are a talented mechanic, you could fix your car yourself but after numerous breakdowns you become frustrated with its poor reliability. In the end the vast majority of drivers will give up and buy another car.

The mac is a luxury vehicle. It goes fast, but not ridiculously fast. It easily overtakes the "econoboxes" on the highway, but can't keep up with the supercars. You can customize your vehicle, but only with certain options that are deemed fit for your model by the manufacturer. It only rarely needs to be taken into the shop in order to fix a catastrophic problem. It runs reliably and drivers are pleased with their experience.

The bottom line is that they are both cars, and they are both good cars. Windows is at times woefully unreliable. I can not tell you how many times I have had friends come to me with their 400 dollar dell laptop and say that they have done x process a dozen times, then took it to a store and got it "fixed", and yet it still is broken. They end up simply buying another 400 dollar laptop and pray to have a better experience. Not including the devices my family has owned, I have owned 2 apple products in my life. One 17" first gen MacBook Pro and the 27" i7 iMac I'm typing on now. If my memory serves me my MBP is 4 years and change old. I would consistently run it 24/7 under moderate load for various creative projects that I have pursued over the years. The only problem I have ever had with it was my battery died and needed to be replaced (for free from the apple store). My iMac which I bought right when the i7's were announced has just celebrated its first birthday and came with a defective speaker out of the box. After that was fixed I have yet to have an issue with it. It just cannot be argued that Macs are generally more reliable then PC's.

However Apple hasn't rode into town on a shining horse, ready to slay PC users left and right. The restraints on OSX as a whole are sometimes very frustrating. Things as simple as mouse acceleration are very difficult to turn off. Their designs are beautiful, but are limited. It would be like Richard Hammond's Porsche dealership. "Here is your 911, which color would you like?". Software support is sometimes nonexistent. Apple does a tremendous job supporting their own programs, including the iLife suite among others, but lags far behind on supporting any type of third party devices. I can't tell you how long I've been waiting for driver updates to help optimize starcraft 2. Believe me, I remember the 90's with OS8 and the only option for games being the oregon trail; it wasn't pretty.

I hope this can better explain the differences, and the advantages of the two OS's.


Spot on. Well said.
 
Maybe someone can answer this for me, but I've never understood the appeal of Apple computers as opposed to other computers.

For me, Apple seems way overpriced for the feature set, compared to other PCs (half the time which you can piece together yourself at a fraction of the cost).

Like my computer I have now is just a tower hooked to my TV, has a Core i5, 8GB memory and a 2TB hard drive. If I would have bought a computer from Apple with those same features, it would cost easily over $1,000, but I got this one for $560.

Could someone explain what the appeal of Apple computers is?


For the record, I do realize you can partition and run Windows or Apple OS on them, but what's so great about Apple OS as opposed to Windows anyway?
 
Features is not everything. Just because it has more features doesn't mean it's better.

Did you include the TV in that $560? I assume you are talking about a 21" iMac. Don't forget that a very high quality IPS monitor is included in that, a keyboard and a mouse or trackpad. However, you'll receive mobile CPU/GPU and the GPU is always too weak to drive the screen if you play games.

Your average user can't build their own PC, so not everyone can take advantage of the cost savings by doing that.

I own a MacBook Air and I would never buy a laptop that isn't made by Apple. Pretty much every other laptop is shipped with ****** third-party software and has poor integration with hardware.

However, I would never buy a stationary computer by Apple. I would build my own (which I did before I switched to Mac) and pick each component depending on what I want. It wouldn't be as elegant as a Mac (one power cable), but cheaper and better hardware.

Anyway, the appeal of Apple computers? The overall experience. It's easy to use and because everything is made by the same company, everything's integrated very well, especially if you also use an iOS device.

By the way, have you taken a look at Ultrabooks? They are all around the same price as a MacBook Air.
 
This pretty much sums up a lot of it here.

***Warning, language!***

A PDF version is here, and the same language warning applies.

My perception is that to many Apple users, it's more important that they be seen with an Apple product than any considerations of usefulness, practicality, etc. Hence the rather conspicuous logo on everything.
 
Did you include the TV in that $560? I assume you are talking about a 21" iMac. Don't forget that a very high quality IPS monitor is included in that, a keyboard and a mouse or trackpad. However, you'll receive mobile CPU/GPU and the GPU is always too weak to drive the screen if you play games.

Your average user can't build their own PC, so not everyone can take advantage of the cost savings by doing that.

I own a MacBook Air and I would never buy a laptop that isn't made by Apple. Pretty much every other laptop is shipped with ****** third-party software and has poor integration with hardware.

He did say tower.

All laptops give you a trackpad.
Most laptops these days will have a GPU in them.
You can uninstall the bloat they add and just make it basic.
Most people would have grown up using windows and they may not want to learn a new O/S

To me Apple are like Ferrari.
You pay for the badge and normally people get them to be seen as "cool"
Sure you could get a cheaper computer or car(for this example) that has same performance or pay the same and more performance but at the end of the day it is your choice.

The only time apple are good is when it comes to video and photo editing.
 
My MacBook Pro is intuitive and lovely to use, comfortable and a good size. But yes, its over priced for the hardware. The software however (Office equivalents and new OS) is very reasonably priced, so its a kind of trade off, a greater cost up front with fewer later costs.

I'll admit it is a bit of a show off piece the "omg you've got a macbook" effect. But really after having used it for a year with no change in performance from day one I really have to say I could have saved myself a chunk of money and got the equivalent hardware in a Windows machine. Then again I'd never now buy a non Apple laptop, the build quality and materials are fantastic compared to the swathes of plasticy windows laptops. I have to say its in the little things too, the 'clunk' on closing the lid rather than a 'click' makes it feel solid and I like that in gadgets.

Edit: Greyfox I believe that with regards to a track pad Centura meant that with the iMac you can choose a track pad over a magic mouse if you wish to.
 
Well I've tested two different computers here are results:
Dell Inspiron One: good and quick,big screen, touch screen, good webcam, completely different features, however, isn't very popular.
Mac: good green screen features, good webcam, good protection on computer, but some small screen compared to others.
 
I've had 3 macs now and still use a windows desktop PC too for gaming. The macs are way overpriced for the hardware in them, but they seem to perform much better then a windows PC would with the same hardware. The build quality in there laptops is just so far ahead of any other top of laptop you can buy, and the screen is much better then in any other laptops made. Right now I'm typing this on whatever the highest end macbook is can't remember what it is, I bought it for my wife. The reason I'm using it is because both of my windows laptops are broke.

There is a place for both PC and macs. For someone who just wants it to work with very little effort and to never have their machine slow down a mac is the choice if money is no object. But for someone who likes to tinker and play games and stays on top of windows maintenance so the computer will perform well as time goes buy then a PC is the way to go.

I use to argue PC vs MAC, but it's really pointless. They are really for 2 totally different types of users. They both have a place and both have users that love them. I'm really glad my wife likes them so that I will probably always have one that way when my windows laptops break I can use her macbook. In the last few years I've been using her macbooks more then my laptops because of this.

My desktop though blows her macbook away and including the TV I use with it I have about the same amount of money in it. The one problem though is that I have had troubles with the os and weird windows glitches and I can't imagine that ever happening to this macbook. Macs are well oiled non stop working machines that you only need to worry about mechanical failures which are rare, and windows based computers need constant maintenance and software monitoring programs to keep them running smooth.

I've argued for both mac and windows in the last few years and if I could only own one computer in my house it would probably be this macbook I'm on now. The only reason would be because of the reliability. The only way this will break is if my kids do something crazy to it. With my other laptops they just either stop working or something that shouldn't ever break them breaks them.
 
I've got a gaming PC and a Mac for my work, it's just horses for courses, use the tool that suits you best. Brand loyalty is the definition of cutting your nose off to spite your face as far as I'm concerned, it's so childish and I'll never understand it. Fair enough if you have no use for a Mac but I've never gotten angry about not needing a torque wrench to hammer a nail, you know?
 
The ironic thing is, any thread in which someone tries to outline what I've been saying for years, is that the 'PC vs Mac' debate (which is a contradiction in terms, mind you. A Macintosh based machine is a personal computer...) is an apples to oranges comparison (mind the pun), always... and I mean ALWAYS, ends up in being a flame war.

Either way once my studies are done, I'll come back with my posts, fight a bit, and wait until the thread is locked due to the unfortunate case that some people just can't have a civilised conversation, and end up ruining it for the nerds like myself, that like to talk about these things. We can all smell it.
 
He did say tower.

All laptops give you a trackpad.
Most laptops these days will have a GPU in them.
You can uninstall the bloat they add and just make it basic.
Most people would have grown up using windows and they may not want to learn a new O/S

To me Apple are like Ferrari.
You pay for the badge and normally people get them to be seen as "cool"
Sure you could get a cheaper computer or car(for this example) that has same performance or pay the same and more performance but at the end of the day it is your choice.

The only time apple are good is when it comes to video and photo editing.

A Mac Pro doesn't cost $1000, so it can't be that.

An iMac isn't a laptop, but duh, any laptop comes with a trackpad.
I guess you misunderstood me, but an iMac is a desktop computer, but it uses mobile hardware (i.e. laptop hardware).
Yes, you can uninstall the software bloat these days, but because of all the integration they are trying to do these days, you'll end up handicapping it, especially a laptop. No multitouch trackpad, for example.

Windows or OS X. It doesn't matter, imo. Both are good in their own ways.

Video and photo editing? I don't understand why you need a Mac for that. Adobe's photo and video editing software exist on both platforms and as a professional, you don't need anything else.
 
tlowr4
always... and I mean ALWAYS, ends up in being a flame war.

Either way once my studies are done, I'll come back with my posts, fight a bit, and wait until the thread is locked due to the unfortunate case that some people just can't have a civilised conversation, and end up ruining it for the nerds like myself, that like to talk about these things. We can all smell it.
What I smell is you attempting to steer this thread into a flame war with your talk of fighting and thinly veiled IBTL. You do not want to do this again.
 
^ I would never do such a thing? I'm just hoping this thread dosn't become what I stated I assume it will. I'm not the type to manipulate threads in such a way. I'd rather post useful stuff than waste time trying to create fights about topics that aren't worth fighting about to any major extent.

I clearly used the wrong term, 'fight a little' was eluding to me stating my point of view on the matter, a poor term to use on my part. I've had about an hours' sleep in the last 72 hours, I've most certainly written the wrong thing, and for that I apologise. :guilty:

However, to stay on topic, it is late and this is a brief overview of what I mean:

Mac machines, in my eyes, are work horses. They're the kind of workhorses that look pretty. If anyone's ever seen Magnum P.I., you'd know of a chap called Higgans. He works in the garden and does work around the estate... in a suit and tie. Windows machines have more flexibility for every day tasks, but with that flexability comes the consequences of the system becoming compromised. It all boils down to marketshare. I'm what you'd call a 'fanboy' to some extent, but each system has their place. You'd never see a hardcore gamer sit down in front of his iMac. With that same token a lot of the more 'workhorsey' things that can be done on Mac can be done on Windows, perhaps just not with as much efficiency. At the end of the day I always say it comes down to the software that Apple has provided, and with that comes personal choice. The hardware that Apple pumps out for their systems, for the price, is a joke. You do pay for the suit and tie workhorse. Some prefer that, I prefer it, more for the ease of ability with the software more than anything. That and the greater protection against nasties.

One thing that gets up my spine though is all the Mac fans saying "Mac's done get viruses, period." That's a load of bull. There's Mac viruses out there. Hell, I have had this very system that I'm typing on, has had a complete compromise of the GUI. I had my mouse being moved around, and Google searches being done all of it's own accord... which after some research found out to be coming from Argentina. The only thing that's keeping Mac's safer than a Windows machine is the fact that Apple holds, what, 10% of the marketshare? If that. Linux even less so (perhaps 2% of the marketshare... wait, what market, it's free!), I don't think I've ever heard of a Linux system being infected or hacked. Perhaps I've been unlucky in hearing so, but I've never seen it. Microsoft however, hold the increased amount of 80%+ of all the computers in the world. It's common sense for the average everyday hacker to design malicious software to target a greater audience. Just wasting your time otherwise. But, as Apple and in effect the Mac OS grows, so will it's vulnerability, which is why Apple removed the whole "Safe as a lockbox without a key" thing on their page (they didn't actually say that, I just forget what they said :P).
 
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Yes, you can uninstall the software bloat these days, but because of all the integration they are trying to do these days, you'll end up handicapping it, especially a laptop. No multitouch trackpad, for example.

Not really.

If you uninstall all the programs they give you but keep the drivers it is fine.

On my Asus U36SD I uninstalled very thing besides the Asus software for the hardware.
 
Meh, I'll stick with linux.

Also good, but I can't imagine it being an option for your average consumer.

Not really.

If you uninstall all the programs they give you but keep the drivers it is fine.

On my Asus U36SD I uninstalled very thing besides the Asus software for the hardware.

On the Windows laptop I have used that have not been an option. For some features to function properly, you'll have to install and in some cases use the bloatware.
 
Also good, but I can't imagine it being an option for your average consumer.



On the Windows laptop I have used that have not been an option. For some features to function properly, you'll have to install and in some cases use the bloatware.

I can't think of any feature that REQUIRES bloatware.. It's all just crap to make money for the OEM.
 
I can't think of any feature that REQUIRES bloatware.. It's all just crap to make money for the OEM.

My moms Dell laptop required drivers with mandatory bloatware to make the webcam function at all. That's three years ago, though. The situation might be better these days.
 
I dunno, I bought an iMac in 2009, and I used it all through high school. It was a good machine, reliable, and I never had any problems. I have a windows laptop now at school, and I don't really find it much different. I primarily just dick around on the internet and use MS Office, so a powerful computer is rather unnecessary. That being said, my next computer purchase will definitely be a PC. I'm looking to get a laptop capable of doing some gaming, so I won't be spending 1500-2000 on a mac to do that. For what I do with a computer, it doesn't make sense to buy a mac. I can get a Lenovo Y580 for $1000~, which outclasses anything Apple offers at that price point in terms of hardware. To be honest, I find a lot of Apple computer customers (myself included) are/were of middle/upper class backgrounds who bought it because it was cool and deluded themselves into thinking "the experience" was worth it. I find the Mac to be slightly more seamless than my PC (then again, OS X vs XP isn't really fair), but it's not worth the premium you pay for hardware. Especially if you're just dicking around on facebook/youtube.
 
My moms Dell laptop required drivers with mandatory bloatware to make the webcam function at all. That's three years ago, though. The situation might be better these days.

My Asus has bloatware to run the webcam by itself but that does not stop flash from using it(when I give it permission to do so such as like uploading a webcam picture to facebook). I'm willing to bet that I can remove the bloatware and still use the wecam. But I'd rather not remove the bloatware as it actually comes with useful software(burn DVD's, rip them, etc...). The bloatware hardly does anything to the hardware performance so it has never come to the point where I need to remove the bloatware.
 
My moms Dell laptop required drivers with mandatory bloatware to make the webcam function at all. That's three years ago, though. The situation might be better these days.

Probably because Dell is terrible and like to bundle drivers into software, so if you try and remove it, it'll remove the driver with the software.

If you go to any decent OEMs website and look for the drivers and support page, you'll often see that there is a software section, and driver section. The software generally works WITH your drivers, but should never be the only way to get something to work. Most OEMs use off the shelf parts so more often than not, the driver for something like the trackpad, wireless antenna, sound card, and webcam, have the driver and ONLY the driver available somewhere. You should be able to find most of it online, for instance you can get Broadcom ethernet NIC drivers directly from their site, Realtek WLAN, and sound drivers from their site, Intel WLAN drivers from their site.. The list goes on and on really. Bloatware is more often than not, useless, "value" software that has better, more often free counterparts available.
 
Actually I've seen drivers require the use of bloatware to be able to use a wireless card. Linksys WRC54G. You have to install the wireless software to be able to use the drivers. Even some modern wireless cards(like my usb rosewill and another usb brand wireless card I got for a friend) required the installation of a GUI interface for wifi connectivity.
 
Actually I've seen drivers require the use of bloatware to be able to use a wireless card. Linksys WRC54G. You have to install the wireless software to be able to use the drivers. Even some modern wireless cards(like my usb rosewill and another usb brand wireless card I got for a friend) required the installation of a GUI interface for wifi connectivity.

That isn't bloatware, that's software meant to work with it, and you don't even need to use it. Sure the driver is in there, but it's meant to be. Switch it over to WZC, and you don't ever have to use the software again.
 
Probably because Dell is terrible and like to bundle drivers into software, so if you try and remove it, it'll remove the driver with the software.

If you go to any decent OEMs website and look for the drivers and support page, you'll often see that there is a software section, and driver section. The software generally works WITH your drivers, but should never be the only way to get something to work. Most OEMs use off the shelf parts so more often than not, the driver for something like the trackpad, wireless antenna, sound card, and webcam, have the driver and ONLY the driver available somewhere. You should be able to find most of it online, for instance you can get Broadcom ethernet NIC drivers directly from their site, Realtek WLAN, and sound drivers from their site, Intel WLAN drivers from their site.. The list goes on and on really. Bloatware is more often than not, useless, "value" software that has better, more often free counterparts available.

The driver for the webcam came with bloatware, but sure, I could probably find a driver from the manufacture of the webcam itself. It's just that, even if it doesn't take hardware performance (the bloatware), I just don't want it there. I absolutely refuse to have anything installed that I will never use.

Anyway, one nice thing about Mac is that you never have to care about things like this. Maintaing and updating drivers. It's completely automatic. But of course, you can also see it as a negative in some ways. You don't have complete control of which driver is installed, etc.

I even consider iLife bloatware on Mac because I never use it and don't want to.
 
^ Which is why I set my updates to warn before updating, so it automatically searches for updates but lets me know what needs to be updated and I can choose to not update it. For example I ignored iTunes for about 5 updates, and have never updated Safari since I got the machine in 2009 because Safari is the best excuse for a browser I've seen. Just hate it, no real reason, just do :P FireFox/Chrome/Opera for me.

Things I'd consider bloatware are probably iWeb and iPhoto. iWeb is as good as useless, no customizability (is that even a word) at all (that or I just haven't found out how to do it), and iPhoto is much the same, very very basic editing to overstate it, and that's it. Really doesn't live up to the iLife standard that was set with iMovie, iMovie now that I've learned about it is as good as Vegas will ever be for me, for the time being, until I'm able to buy Premiere Elements.
 
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