My neighbor just got a 350Z!

[Duke]

Well, not exactly my neighbor, but he does live near me.

The guy is a woodcarver of all things (he makes wooden statues) and either he's good at it, or he sells drugs on the side. In the last year he's bought a new Silverado truck to carry around the sculptures, a Yukon, and a blue WRX sedan (to which he's added yellow WRC graphics - swoosh and stars on the side, Subaru logo on the hood).

Last night I saw parked in his driveway a platinum-gold something or other fast looking (couldn't see well). This morning I saw the Nissan logo on the nose, so I'm assuming it's a 350Z.

It looks kind of like a TT with the front clip of a new Cadillac grafted to it. I'll need to see it a few more times to decide how much I like it. It's not bad at first glance, though.

 

[alex_gt]

If it looks like a Coupe and it's new with a :nissan: Badge I'd bet money on it being a 350Z...

You know how they say don't get in a car with strangers when your a kid? Does it apply if you get the chance to get a ride in the 350Z?

Nah but seriously Neon, if you want a closer look :magnify: I'd go round, knock on his door and pay :2cents: him to let you wash it?

Off subject, Neon_Duke only to read: Continuing the :honda: Civic Vs. :chrysler: Neon saga, :uk: Top Gear www.topgear.beeb.com Magazine has Officially Placed the Civic ahead of the neon in there Official Impartial Car Survey, only by a few places mind, but customers liked it better.. So I guess I was right all along?

 

[Duke]

[whisper]Sorry, Alexy, I don't care what consumers like better. I care about what drives better. Consumer Reports (a supposedly-impartial and very arrogant consumer watchdog magazine here in the US) publishes a car buying guide aimed at the general public. They did extensive tests which show the Neon outperforming the Civic in every category except gas mileage, yet they rank the Civic as better for undefined, unexplained reasons that have nothing to do with performance and cost - the two main criteria I care about.

Impartiality is easy to claim and hard to hold. Hondas are popular because a lot of people say Hondas are popular. You've proven to yourself something you already believed. I couldn't care less about that. Performance numbers don't lie, and neither do race wins. Neons handle better, and dollar per dollar, a street driven Neon will be both quicker and faster than a comparable Civic.

You will automatically love anything Honda makes. I on the other hand will love my faster, handier Neon, until you show me a car in the same class that accelerates better and handles better for the same amount of money.[/whisper]

 

[risingson77]

Hehehehe....

Consumer Reports....ugh. Never have I seen so many people be so wrong at one place and time.

Don't misunderstand...I'm not saying that the Neon isn't a good car (never driven one, so I really have no opinion), but the minute CR recommends something I assume it's the cheapest thing out there...that's what they tend to recommend.

If someone hasn't gotten to them, of course....

 

[Duke]

My point exactly. According to Consumer Retards, all Honda and Toyota products are the only cars anyone should ever consider buying, ever. They don't like American cars in general, and they HATE Chrysler products like the devil himself.

This from the magazine that admits they don't do their acceleration testing at wide open throttle because "our readers don't drive like that." And whose product testers are just as likely to be analyzing refrigerators as they are doing performance testing.

 

[risingson77]

Ever seen a CR hi-fi review? Laff riot, really.

Same thing for "Top Gear" there...A great many mags in the UK tend to be anglo-centric (i.e., US = crap). I don't understand how they can criticize US workmanship when the UK didn't start producing reliable cars until they were bought out by foreign interests. The US being a major one. oke:

 

[Duke]

It's true. They call John Lucas - who designed the electrical systems for many many British cars - the "Prince of Darkness".

And my friend, who has an MGB, has to keep three carbeuretors for it. One on the car, a rebuilt one on the bench waiting to go on the car, and one on the bench waiting to be rebuilt.

 

[risingson77]

That should remove any credibility Top Gear may have had on the subject of cars.

On-Topic: I'm jealous. I can't wait to see a new 350. Perhaps I'll go to my local Nissan dealership and try to hose a salesman into giving me a test drive. 😈

 

[1X83Z]

Originally posted by neon_duke
[whisper]Sorry, Alexy, I don't care what consumers like better. I care about what drives better. Consumer Reports (a supposedly-impartial and very arrogant consumer watchdog magazine here in the US) publishes a car buying guide aimed at the general public. They did extensive tests which show the Neon outperforming the Civic in every category except gas mileage, yet they rank the Civic as better for undefined, unexplained reasons that have nothing to do with performance and cost - the two main criteria I care about.

Impartiality is easy to claim and hard to hold. Hondas are popular because a lot of people say Hondas are popular. You've proven to yourself something you already believed. I couldn't care less about that. Performance numbers don't lie, and neither do race wins. Neons handle better, and dollar per dollar, a street driven Neon will be both quicker and faster than a comparable Civic.

You will automatically love anything Honda makes. I on the other hand will love my faster, handier Neon, until you show me a car in the same class that accelerates better and handles better for the same amount of money.[/whisper]

You know, duke it's a supremely peculiar thing. Personally, I hate Consumer Reports and wish they would all die. They NEVER make comments regarding cars' styling (they don't even mention the Aztek's styling as even 'questionable'), and they rarely say anything that can hold a person's attention for about ten seconds.

It's supremely peculiar, because you and I both know that twenty years ago, when Honda and Toyota were trying to begin making it in the car business, Consumer Reports would've picked the Neon over it, no doubt.

There's no question Hondas in general are more reliable that Chrysler products in general, but there's also no question that Consumer Reports (like many Americans) is completely and totally biased towards Japanese cars (they don't much care for European cars, though, I've noticed, and of course, no one cares much for Korean cars).

I plainly don't buy Consumer Reports anymore. Rarely have they ever got anything good to say regarding cars. They subtly inject their opinion into the articles, and, though I don't much care for the Neon, it's almost stupid to spend time reading their unconditional praise of the most popular non-American cars in every category (Passat this, Camry that, CR-V this, etc. etc.).

 

[1X83Z]

Originally posted by risingson77
Ever seen a CR hi-fi review? Laff riot, really.

Same thing for "Top Gear" there...A great many mags in the UK tend to be anglo-centric (i.e., US = crap). I don't understand how they can criticize US workmanship when the UK didn't start producing reliable cars until they were bought out by foreign interests. The US being a major one. oke:

I absoultely love reading British magasines, plainly because we don't get the fine variety of cars in Britain. Though we get some crappy cars (Kia, Hyundai...), Britain has got to put up with Perodua and the Serena, and people actually buy these vehicles! I love the informed auto magasine saying "This vehicle looks, drives, and sounds like a kitchen appliance."

To the point, I find it hard to like the magasines pure anti-Americanism. It is hard, however, to find fault with the anti-US crap when we see that a Sebring convertible in England (available in left-hand drive only) costs about the same as a nice six-cylinder BMW 3-series convertible. Likewise, it's hard to pick the Neon (also only sold in left-hand drive) over the 318i or A4, which are near each other price-wise.

Frankly, the only American vehicles worthwhile sold in England are the Chrysler Voyager (hey, Tony Blair drives one - or his people do), Jeep Grand Cherokee (for pure spec list - for the price of a nice 3.0i X5, you can have the 4.7 Grand Cherokee), and the Jeep Liberty (called the Cherokee in England - it's a competitor).

Chevy realised, fortunately for them, that it was a waste of time to even try in England. With the magasines' (and the general population's) anti-Americanism, plus the fact that there are better German cars for around the same price in England, it wasn't worth it. They pulled out of England about three years after going in.

 

[risingson77]

I still think they're bitter.

Good points, tho....

 

[Talentless]

Consumer Reports is a safety obsessed mag, that's all they will ever be. Whichever car breaks the least is the best. Period.

 

[Hooligan]

Originally posted by M5Power


I absoultely love reading British magasines, plainly because we don't get the fine variety of cars in Britain. Though we get some crappy cars (Kia, Hyundai...), Britain has got to put up with Perodua and the Serena, and people actually buy these vehicles! I love the informed auto magasine saying "This vehicle looks, drives, and sounds like a kitchen appliance."

To the point, I find it hard to like the magasines pure anti-Americanism. It is hard, however, to find fault with the anti-US crap when we see that a Sebring convertible in England (available in left-hand drive only) costs about the same as a nice six-cylinder BMW 3-series convertible. Likewise, it's hard to pick the Neon (also only sold in left-hand drive) over the 318i or A4, which are near each other price-wise.

Frankly, the only American vehicles worthwhile sold in England are the Chrysler Voyager (hey, Tony Blair drives one - or his people do), Jeep Grand Cherokee (for pure spec list - for the price of a nice 3.0i X5, you can have the 4.7 Grand Cherokee), and the Jeep Liberty (called the Cherokee in England - it's a competitor).

Chevy realised, fortunately for them, that it was a waste of time to even try in England. With the magasines' (and the general population's) anti-Americanism, plus the fact that there are better German cars for around the same price in England, it wasn't worth it. They pulled out of England about three years after going in.

Somewhere before reading this post I thought I had something worth saying. Seems like someone beat me to it, so best I can do is repeat it.

 

[Talentless]

Selling cars in Europe Jesse style.

"If the car is big, it has the value of a twig. But if the car is small, it will make bundles (of cash/pounds) for all.

Noone wants a land boat. A car that can fit in my luggage is on what I will gloat."

Ps. I suck.

 

[Duke]

Originally posted by Hooligan
Somewhere before reading this post I thought I had something worth saying. Seems like someone beat me to it, so best I can do is repeat it.

Ditto. I'm not arguing the mediocre value of American cars abroad - they are mostly marginal at best. I'm just saying (in response to Alexy, and half of the male American drivers under age 30) that Honda is not the ONLY good carmaker in the free world.

 

[Duke]

Originally posted by neon_duke

Ditto. I'm not arguing the mediocre value of American cars abroad - they are mostly marginal at best. I'm just saying (in response to Alexy, and half of the male American drivers under age 30) that Honda is not the ONLY good carmaker in the free world.

Heh. Guess I hijacked my own thread this time!

 

[masonholmes]

No matter what the CR says, I'd rather have a "civic" than a "neon", (read honda over chrysler), for the pure reason of reliability. Dunno bout you neon drivers, but I like cars that last, not ones that blow head gaskets and catch fire As for the 350z, I think it's fugly and would much rather have an original 240z, showroom quality. (or one of nissan's "new" ones) Oh yeah, and no, I'm not a Honda man

 

[masonholmes]

left somthin out..heh. Woodworking is nothing to poke at, if you can do it, you can be very very wealthy! I'm in a woods class for my major, and have had a few other classes that dealt with it, and all I can say is the ease of working in it ends when you're finished chopping down the trees and sawing them up.

 

[Robin2]

and a datsun is cool?

 

[Duke]

Originally posted by masonholmes
No matter what the CR says, I'd rather have a "civic" than a "neon", (read honda over chrysler), for the pure reason of reliability. Dunno bout you neon drivers, but I like cars that last, not ones that blow head gaskets and catch fire

See, this is how Consumer Retards screws their targets over.
[rant]
CATCH FIRE? Do you know how many Neons have been built? About 1.7 million. Do you know how many Neons "caught fire"? About 4. They were all from the first WEEK of production - more than 8-1/2 years ago. And none of them had made it into private hands - they were still in the distribution network. Production was stopped, the problem was fixed within a week or two, and the correction was performed on EVERY existing Neon before it got any farther through distribution channels. Yet somehow, you still have this Consumer Reports-aggravated impression that Neons "catch fire".

You want serious safety issues in a production car? Buy a Ford sometime. Ever gotten a recall notice that says "Under no circumstances drive the car until this recall service has been performed. Have the car towed to your dealer service department or call 1-800-xxx-xxxx to arrange other transportation."? My friend did, on his new Mustang. He's not alone.

Yes, Neons had a headgasket problem. So do many cars with an iron block and aluminum head. My old Supra popped three headgaskets, cracking the head twice. The third time, I just replaced it with a junkyard engine and ditched the car before it could blow again. Nissan owners had to file a class-action lawsuit to get their headgasket problems taken care of. For the Neon, the problem was solved in 1998 or so, and Chrysler provided out-of-warranty service to replace failed head gaskets on many thousands of Neons. They replaced mine for $100 even though I was the second owner, and the car was two years and more than 20,000 miles out of warranty when it failed. That was more than two years and 20,000 miles ago, and the revised headgasket is tight as a drum. There's nothing preventing me from putting another hundred thousand miles on the car.

How many old Hondas and Mitsubishis do you see farting huge clouds of oil smoke? A lot.

Also, somehow, a couple people missed the point that CR liked the Civic better, even though the Neon beat it in all performance categories (except mileage) and was cheaper to boot. There is so much popular conception that Hondas are indestructible and that Vtec is the next best thing to an orgasm that I just get sick of hearing it after a while.

Believe me, I'm well aware of the Neon's flaws. I help run a website that documents each and every problem, and shows Neon owners how to correct them. But there is so much ignorant, INCORRECT prejudice against it that I have to act like it's an automotive saint just to defend the little thing.
[/rant]
"You wanna run that ****?" <~~ the first words that instantly come to every Neon owner's mind when some punk Civic driver makes a smarta$$ comment

 

[alex_gt]

Well it is known for the :chrysler: Neons to have shoddy build? Oh yea and another thing, I ain't never seen a Neon in :gt:3/GTC? Now doesn't that say something?

Now I don't know if :USA: mags may be biased to satisfy sponsers, but the :uk: BBC Magazine is genuine. They have no ties with any manufacturer and mark each car :car: individually...Owners filled in questionnaires and factual results were drawn.

Oh and Neon, you wouldn't be afraid to admit that the neon isn't at Civic Standard just because of you Name would you? I mean you could always get a new membership with Civic_Duke once I give you the soild evidence that the :honda: is the better car?...

 

[masonholmes]

Well then one of the four that caught fire must've been in the hands of my friends when it happened, LOL. (electrical dash fire, that dodge wouldn't claim-not one of the first neons off the line, but rather one of the new ones! this car was also thought to be lacking in the perf/handling department, in comparison to the older neon the person used to have, ) As for the head gaskets, I know of at least three friends who have had theirs go rather quick, (not the same people who's caught fire, lol), and were left stranded. (one of which dodge wouldn't cover. and that issue is not just neons, it's in other platforms) We had a fullsize Dodge van that was such a mechanical piece of junk, it's not funny. (bought new in 88, repaired constantly) So no, I didn't get my misguided opinions from CR, but rather real life expierience. Heck, I don't even read CR. As for the old hondas and such, blowing smoke, (don't get me started on mitsu*****ies and Fords ), compare their age, milage, and care given to maintenence-to the neons on the road, and then factor in how much has been spent in repairs/maintenence, and see what you have. I also note some expierences I've had while carshopping.. I got in a few brand new neons, (of the time, 99), and the interior just seemed really plasticky and cheap, maybe not so bad if it were like a korean car or somthing but c'mon America, what's goin on?? I'm not saying a neon can't be/be made a good little car, I'd just rather not go through the hassles in getting there. The car/platform is just not worth it, IMO.

As for you alexy, I'll shoot down one of your comments before anybody else does The one about the neon not being included in GT3.. many many cars weren't included, but this was because of a lack of time, not because they weren't good cars. Sony just pushed the game out before they were actually finished, and thus, it has waaaay less cars than its predeccessor had.

 

[risingson77]

Yup the Neon was in GT2...helluva car, too. :thumbsup:

As far as the mag claiming impartiality...they all do that. They are also all full of shyte. Stop listening to paid reviewers (where do you think they get their money? The bulk of it comes from ads, NOT subscriptions) and take some time and effort to formulate your own opinions. It'll work out better in the long run, trust me.

 

[Duke]

Well, Mason, I can't argue with the fact that your friend's Neon caught fire. But to widen it out to say something like "Neons catch fire?" C'mon, be realistic. With more than a million and a half of them on the road, I'd be surprised if one DIDN'T catch fire. I've actually seen a burning V6 Accord by the side of the highway, fully involved. Then is it fair for me to say "Accords catch fire?"

I won't comment on your B-series van experience, because it was built 14 years ago, about 4 years before the design staff and management responsible for the Neon was even in place at Chrysler.

I also don't buy this comment you made: "As for the head gaskets, I know of at least three friends who have had theirs go rather quick, and were left stranded." That's simply not true. The 420A engine's head gasket doesn't fail that way. It fails by allowing a small external oil leak on the back side of the engine block. The car can be driven nearly forever with a blown headgasket. It will continue to leak a small amount of oil. If you never check or change your oil, then you may eventually be stranded when the engine runs out of oil. After many thousands of miles of neglect, the failed head gasket sometimes allows coolant to leak as well. Again, if you never perform even the most routine maintenance, you could eventually be stranded by the failed headgasket. But you'd have to work really hard to make that happen.

You talk about maintenance costs between the Civic and the Neon. Ever had a Japanese car serviced at a dealer? Cha-ching! Ever bought parts for a Japanese car? NOTHING costs less than $40 unless you can buy it at Auto Shack. I got 60,000 miles out of the original front brake pads, on a car that has done autocross duty and track days at Road Atlanta, for crying out loud! It's still GOT the original rear brake pads on the car at 75,000 miles.

Here's something else you said: "This car was also thought to be lacking in the perf/handling department, in comparison to the older neon the person used to have." OK, so you're going to ***** at Chrysler now for responding to consumer comments. The original Neon was criticized for being a little to hard and a little too loud. (It was an economy car - DUH!) So Chrysler did what people wanted, and made the car softer and quieter. Consider: I can buy a brand new, more comfortable and more technologically advanced Neon today for exactly the same price I paid for my first new Neon in 1995. Those improvements had to be paid for somehow. If the price had gone up, you bet it would be softer and quieter with no loss of performance. But it didn't go up.

Put a first generation Sentra SE-R next to a current Spec V. The new Sentra is bigger, softer, much heavier, doesn't handle or perform as well as the older one, and costs about 50% more. Got any more points you'd like to make?

The interiors of both my 1995 Neons are comfortable and work well. My wife's has leather seats, steering wheel, and shifter, plus every luxury she could want except power windows. My Neon is sprung like a truck and has very stiff struts (it's a factory racing package). Yet with 75,000 hard miles on the car, the only thing that rattles is the spare change in my ashtray.

OK, Alexy, it's your turn:

You still don't get it, do you? Or are you just excercising me for fun? I don't give a crap about the "Civic standard" - if that means inoffensive cars that are boring to drive unless you dump a lot of money into them, and don't preform as well as something that costs less.
You keep throwing out statements like "well the Neon is known for shoddy build". Again, you seem to be repeating what somebody else told you. My Neon is still tight, getting faster with age, and no part has ever failed on it except the headgasket. The body panels are even and flush. 7 years after it was built, none of the interior pieces have faded, warped, or cracked. The driver's seat has settled a little bit but I'm a big guy. It doesn't owe me anything. Where is this shoddy build quality again?

You say you'll give me "solid evidence that the Honda is the better car." Yet in the thousands of words we've written on this subject you've never come up with anything better than "well, the magazines, movies, and import kids like Hondas, so they must be the best." Big deal. Show me the numbers. No Neons in GT3? C'mon, this game is so heavily Japan-biased it's almost embarassing. They didn't put any American cars in that they didn't have to, and still expect to sell the game here.

I've given you chapter and verse on why I prefer the Neon, with in-depth backup from my experience, and results from the racing and autocross world. I'm still waiting for you to show me any solid proof whatsoever.

Man, ignorance sure must be bliss. Risingson, thanks for helping out here!

 

[quattro_bro]

So your neighbor's got a 350Z, huh? I believe this was the thread, wasn't it?
I would love to drive one of these, but of course every car that comes into the dealership for the next year will have been pre-ordered/sold.

As far as the extra-curricular activity in this thread, I have to agree with the comments on CR. They really are laughable.

Regarding the Neon vs Civic debate, I really have no experiences to contribute to the discussion, nor do I have a preference between the two. From a truly objective standpoint, I do have to say, though, that alexy2k, you've simply been outdone here. For god's sake, it's like you're going to the Pope and bashing Catholocism!

 

[duo17]

Just had a question for Neon...
What car did you have before the neon that you described in the above thread?

 

[Duke]

I had a mid-80s Toyota Supra with the 6ME engine (I think ME - I got rid of the car 7 years ago). The straight six was torquey as hell, but the car was pretty tailhappy and some of the engineering just plain sucked.

In fact it was physically easier to yank the engine entirely and replace it as a unit than it was to pull the head alone. Replacing the pads on the rear discs was virtually impossible - a job that normally takes half an hour was a half day event with a lot of cursing and busted knuckles.

Before that I had a 1.5l Civic hatch, which was fun to drive but cannot be considered as relevant to this discussion because it has nothing in common with the modern Civic. It lasted a looong time but it was literally falling apart in chassis and drivetrain when it was killed in an accident.

 

[risingson77]

Torquey + RWD = oversteer. I think Toyota tamed the Supra's handling later on. Not sure tho. Too bad about some of the poorly thought out "features"...Toyota is usually better than that. Did it have the 2.8 or 3.0 six?

I think you've verified that the Civic is a good car. it sounds like it soldiered on for quite some time. But both the Civic and Neon are economy cars, and sometimes people forget that.

 

[1X83Z]

The Honda Civic may just be the least-fun car ever.

 

[risingson77]

Don't be such a Euro-snob, M5.