Myth: Gran Turismo Sport and thus GT7 have unrealistic Front Wheel Drive Understeer. Status: BUSTED!

[Magog]

You do know the “cade” in simcade refers to arcade. Yes?
By your expalination of you thinking I‘m not understanding what I posted, a simulation is the same as Arcade. A Simulation game allows you “to quickly race a selection of cars you don’t own.“ Right?

If you didn’t quite understand what I posted, that is why I don’t use the term simcade: A simulation, but more arcade style in execution. It has aspects of real driving, but the dynamics are not as true to form as a more accurate simulation of realism.

Again you're conflating the arcade mode with arcade style handling. They are unrelated. They could just as easily have named arcade mode quick race.

 

[05XR8]

Again you're conflating the arcade mode with arcade style handling. They are unrelated. They could just as easily have named arcade mode quick race.

No conflation at all. You’re still not understanding my post.

I see it as PD simulating “real driving”. We all pull the right trigger, car go. We all pull the left trigger, car stop. Now, “real driving” as accurate as real life, with all real world finer detail? Not as good as some simulators, but better than other simulators.

I mean, why have “Arcade Mode” as a feature, if you’re simulating real driving? Why have two modes? In a real driving simulator?
I think it’s been a long line of the interpretation and translation. In the real world, there’s no “arcade mode”. If anything, real life arcade mode, would be a track day(s). Simulation Mode would be Driving instruction through to professional racing series.

I don’t use simcade. I just name the game. People pretty much know what to expect with the physics in a GT game. Mentioned before how people feel they can control the car. So, maybe, that means to them, it’s simulating real driving. Whether the physics are accurate or not, the car moves forward, side to side and reverses.

Where did I say arcade style handling? If you’re saying Arcade allows people to have quick races, that’s what I mentioned a track day entails. It allows drivers to quickly race, without being in a professional series. Gran Turismo Simulation Mode has players enter campaigns and tests and race series.

The issue of your thread, is related to physics. We’re discussing whether GT physics are accurate, true to certain drivetrain characteristics. Now, we’re discussing the use of simcade. Does PD fall into a full simulation or arcade. What’s simulation and what’s arcade? It’s as though you yourself joined the two. As I quoted you to prove the point.

The last paragraph in my quote, explains what I think people mean, when they use simcade. You quoted me and you must not understand or missed I typed “arcade mode, would be a track day(s)”.

 

[mwoodski]

If you want it the same as real life, you have to accept that some cars are hard to drive on the limit. All cars require specific setups to go as fast as possible at a particular track. Some cars you will not be able to jump in and be fast straight away, and you will have to learn new techniques to drive them well. That's why racing drivers are professionals who take years to learn their craft.

spool diff Supercar says "hello."

 

[ImaRobot]

I myself i pointed some of the problems of the game on the physics thread that i started some time ago way before than anyone else but anyway...again im not going to discuss with diehard forza fans.
Enjoy your game and have a good day

Yeah, and then you go on personally attack anyone that doesn't fully jump on board with everything that GT is doing and literally call them Forza Fanboys when most of the people you interact with don't even play the game. You literally did exactly that to Scaff in your physics thread that you brought up, because he proved you wrong. Now you switched to "Diehard Forza Fans" because you repeatedly have to be scolded by a mod about the term.

 

[ScottPuss20]

Which one is it? Because these are mutually exclusive.

If you want it the same as real life, you have to accept that some cars are hard to drive on the limit. All cars require specific setups to go as fast as possible at a particular track. Some cars you will not be able to jump in and be fast straight away, and you will have to learn new techniques to drive them well. That's why racing drivers are professionals who take years to learn their craft.

If you want a game that is simplified so that you don't need setups, you don't need to adapt to the particular car that you're driving and that all cars are easy to drive on the limit, you're explicitly asking for the game to be made unrealistic in those areas.

To be clear, that's fine. That's a choice and not necessarily a bad one for a game of Gran Turismo's type. But let's not pretend that it's more realistic. ACC being hard to drive on the limit (I mean, it's not particularly hard, they're GT3/4 cars) and requiring setups is far more realistic than the opposite.

Read my post again. I was talking about driving techniques ONLY. Those that are used in real life should apply to GT7, allowing you to run decent times out of the box. Tuning would still be required to extract the absolute maximum on any given track, but if you're a competent driver who uses a realistic driving technique, you should be able to get close to that maximum.

 

[VXR]

I would be really happy if you can drive an (older) 911 properly in GT7:

Throttle On: Understeer
Throttle Off: Oversteer

The only game I've played that seems to get this right is AC. Forza is just oversteer all the time. Throttle on, throttle off, steady state, whatever - it's like they just coated the rear tires in bacon grease. I do remember 911s in GT4 understeering quite a bit, but that game's handling model was pretty poor IMO. I am trying to recollect RR handling in GT5 and I'm not remembering anything. Probably because there were no premium Porsche/Ruf models so I didn't bother to try any of them.

Maybe in Horizon, but in FM6 at least, the 996 GT3 requires proper consideration to quell understeer in most cases, and it's actively difficult to induce power oversteer. Quite a revelation, I thought, to see RR modeled that way and not simply as a pendulum waiting to attack.

 

[Imari]

Read my post again. I was talking about driving techniques ONLY. Those that are used in real life should apply to GT7, allowing you to run decent times out of the box. Tuning would still be required to extract the absolute maximum on any given track, but if you're a competent driver who uses a realistic driving technique, you should be able to get close to that maximum.

I'm not quite clear what you're saying here.

Reality is that some cars are hard to drive to the limit. Your previous post asked for a game where cars are not hard to drive to the limit.

I like ACC but it's very hard to drive on the limit and a good setup is required to extract the maximum performance. That can be quite tiring and I don't want that for GT7.

Some cars require different or strange driving styles, spool diff Supercars being a perfect example as @mwoodski pointed out. "Realistic driving techniques" would require adapting to that style, but your previous post seemed to be asking not to have to do that.

I want to get in and drive at a decent speed out of box, but I don't want to adopt a strange technique to do so.

If you're not used to spool diff Supercars, to get in and drive at a decent speed will require strange techniques. Same with historic cars, mid- or rear-engined cars, high downforce cars, front-wheel drive race cars, etc. The whole point is that these cars drive differently, and the techniques to be fast will be strange at first.

Realism means dealing with the fact that some cars will be hard to drive to the limit, and that some cars will require strange driving techniques in order to be fast. That's how reality is.


As far as setups, it seems like you're talking about having bad default setups. Having good default setups can allow good times to be run without the player necessarily needing to spent time setting up the car. But how good the default setups are is something that's up to the developers, and isn't really anything to do with either driving techniques or physics.

There's also a bit of a tradeoff, in that very fast setups are rarely user friendly. Developers usually choose to have "safe" setups as defaults so that all players can jump in and enjoy the car, and these setups are rarely optimised for speed. Those that would prefer a "fast" setup are usually engaged enough with the game that they're willing to spend a little time either creating their own setup or copying one from other sources.

It's not ideal, and some games have experimented with offering several presets for drivers to make more concession to the sort of thing you're after. I think that's probably about as good as it gets, having a few setup presets that players can try and find what's good for them. Maybe "safe", "loose", "tight", and "wet". Or something like that.

 

[ScottPuss20]

I'm not quite clear what you're saying here.

Reality is that some cars are hard to drive to the limit. Your previous post asked for a game where cars are not hard to drive to the limit.

Some cars require different or strange driving styles, spool diff Supercars being a perfect example as @mwoodski pointed out. "Realistic driving techniques" would require adapting to that style, but your previous post seemed to be asking not to have to do that.

If you're not used to spool diff Supercars, to get in and drive at a decent speed will require strange techniques. Same with historic cars, mid- or rear-engined cars, high downforce cars, front-wheel drive race cars, etc. The whole point is that these cars drive differently, and the techniques to be fast will be strange at first.

Realism means dealing with the fact that some cars will be hard to drive to the limit, and that some cars will require strange driving techniques in order to be fast. That's how reality is.


As far as setups, it seems like you're talking about having bad default setups. Having good default setups can allow good times to be run without the player necessarily needing to spent time setting up the car. But how good the default setups are is something that's up to the developers, and isn't really anything to do with either driving techniques or physics.

There's also a bit of a tradeoff, in that very fast setups are rarely user friendly. Developers usually choose to have "safe" setups as defaults so that all players can jump in and enjoy the car, and these setups are rarely optimised for speed. Those that would prefer a "fast" setup are usually engaged enough with the game that they're willing to spend a little time either creating their own setup or copying one from other sources.

It's not ideal, and some games have experimented with offering several presets for drivers to make more concession to the sort of thing you're after. I think that's probably about as good as it gets, having a few setup presets that players can try and find what's good for them. Maybe "safe", "loose", "tight", and "wet". Or something like that.

When I say "strange" I mean techniques that do not work in the real world. The technique required to drive a front-wheel drive car in GT Sport differs to the one required in real life. I'm not saying that all cars must be driven the exact same way, but the techniques that work for a particular car in real life should apply in GT7. You're taking my words out of context. Also, I'm not talking about bad default setups, I'm talking about good setups that are well-balanced and easy to get accustomed to. As GT offers less nuance with the physics, it's easier to reach the limit because you're closer to that point from the start. Not so in ACC. You start a long way from the limit and an extensive amount of tuning is required to reach it because the physics are more advanced. Even with a "good, stable" setup to begin with.

 

[soc123_au]

Maybe "safe", "loose", "tight", and "wet". Or something like that.

I see you have met my ex wife..

 

[Imari]

When I say "strange" I mean techniques that do not work in the real world. The technique required to drive a front-wheel drive car in GT Sport differs to the one required in real life. I'm not saying that all cars must be driven the exact same way, but the techniques that work for a particular car in real life should apply in GT7. You're taking my words out of context.

I'm not taking your words out of context, I'm just assuming that when you write the word "strange" you actually mean strange - as in unusual or unfamiliar. You apparently mean "unrealistic", which is not at all what "strange" means. I'm not a mind-reader, if you write something I'm going to assume you mean what you wrote.

But okay, if we replace "strange" with "unrealistic" then I understand with regards to driving techniques. You're just asking for the game to be more realistic overall with regards to driving dynamics.

The idea of having cars that are not hard to drive to the limit is still a problem though, and it seems like the above would only make it worse. Hard to drive at the limit is realistic behaviour for some cars, and if the physics system is adjusted so that cars cannot be hard to drive to the limit then in some cases that results in unrealistic behaviour.

For what it's worth, if ACC is the benchmark for too hard to drive to the limit this is going to be an issue. The cars in ACC are relatively easy to drive to the limit by design. They have a lot of grip and downforce, they're relatively kind to their tyres, they have assists, the power delivery is smooth, they aren't particularly snappy when you push too far. If any car that hard or harder needs to be adjusted to be easier to push to the limit then there's a huge amount of interesting cars that simply won't be presented accurately.

 

[ScottPuss20]

I'm not taking your words out of context, I'm just assuming that when you write the word "strange" you actually mean strange - as in unusual or unfamiliar. You apparently mean "unrealistic", which is not at all what "strange" means. I'm not a mind-reader, if you write something I'm going to assume you mean what you wrote.

But okay, if we replace "strange" with "unrealistic" then I understand with regards to driving techniques. You're just asking for the game to be more realistic overall with regards to driving dynamics.

The idea of having cars that are not hard to drive to the limit is still a problem though, and it seems like the above would only make it worse. Hard to drive at the limit is realistic behaviour for some cars, and if the physics system is adjusted so that cars cannot be hard to drive to the limit then in some cases that results in unrealistic behaviour.

For what it's worth, if ACC is the benchmark for too hard to drive to the limit this is going to be an issue. The cars in ACC are relatively easy to drive to the limit by design. They have a lot of grip and downforce, they're relatively kind to their tyres, they have assists, the power delivery is smooth, they aren't particularly snappy when you push too far. If any car that hard or harder needs to be adjusted to be easier to push to the limit then there's a huge amount of interesting cars that simply won't be presented accurately.

All I want for GT7 is a dumbed-down version of ACC's physics model where each car is easier to drive. And if you think driving to the limit in a GT3 car is easy, you're dead wrong. I drive as hard as I can and I'm still 2 seconds slower than the fastest drivers in my league. Driving at 100% is very hard no matter what car you're in, particularly in a hardcore simulator. Again, I don't want that for GT7. I understand that it won't be as accurate, but I don't want it to be. And I'm allowed to think that, aren't I?

 

[05XR8]

Some players find it hard to keep up with faster payers. That's maybe not due to the cars being hard, but set up. We both watch (V8)Supercars. If any one racer's set up is out a fraction, they are down the back of the grid. We know this, race to race, not just track to track and/or conditions. The set up window is just not there.
We all know it's also nerve. Somedays, you're one with the car, some days, you're off.

In GTS, depending on track and no doubt car of choice, I feel I've pushed myself to the limit and I'm still 2 seconds off the top players. Whether league play or TT or FIA, someone will always get that much more on the limit than any one player.

I'd like ACC grip in GT7. Even if I can't get it all, I'd like that feeling of holding the line, the feeling of tyres dug into the ground when using race cars. For road cars, I'm okay with how GT currently feels. The classic cars are tricky as certain cars have characteristics of lifting inside rear tyres and such.

 

[Imari]

All I want for GT7 is a dumbed-down version of ACC's physics model where each car is easier to drive. And if you think driving to the limit in a GT3 car is easy, you're dead wrong. I drive as hard as I can and I'm still 2 seconds slower than the fastest drivers in my league.

I didn't say driving a GT3 car was easy in absolute terms. It's always hard to be fast. You're only as fast as you are, even if that's 10 seconds off the pace, and all you can do is try and challenge your own personal limits.

What I said was that they were relatively easy compared to other cars, and I even pointed out several of the ways in which they were relatively forgiving for the driver. GT3 cars are relatively forgiving to drive compared to many other types of race cars, it's why they're so popular with amateur racers.

The point is that if you're finding a relatively forgiving car to be difficult to push to the limit, the other cars which are acknowledged to be more difficult and less forgiving are going to be really, really challenging. Which means that a lot of "interesting" cars are going to have to be neutered considerably in order to reach the level of not too hard to drive to the limit. Some of them will have to be changed so much it becomes a question of are you still driving that car, or are you just driving an imaginary car that happens to have the shell of a Lotus 98T on the outside?

This is how we end up with a game that is a very, very long way from realistic even though that was never the goal.

Driving at 100% is very hard no matter what car you're in, particularly in a hardcore simulator. Again, I don't want that for GT7. I understand that it won't be as accurate, but I don't want it to be. And I'm allowed to think that, aren't I?

Ahem.

If you want a game that is simplified ... you're explicitly asking for the game to be made unrealistic in those areas.

To be clear, that's fine. That's a choice and not necessarily a bad one for a game of Gran Turismo's type. But let's not pretend that it's more realistic. ACC being hard to drive on the limit (I mean, it's not particularly hard, they're GT3/4 cars) and requiring setups is far more realistic than the opposite.

I said it was fine. That was from my first response.

But do you see the contradiction I originally pointed out now? You want more realism in driving techniques, but less realism in car response to those driving techniques. Those two things are not entirely independent and it goes both ways. You can't change one without affecting the other. A car that has altered handling characteristics is going to let the driver get away with driving techniques that simply wouldn't work in real life. Or as is the subject of this thread, certain driving techniques won't do what they should because of those altered handling characteristics.

 

[ScottPuss20]

I didn't say driving a GT3 car was easy in absolute terms. It's always hard to be fast. You're only as fast as you are, even if that's 10 seconds off the pace, and all you can do is try and challenge your own personal limits.

What I said was that they were relatively easy compared to other cars, and I even pointed out several of the ways in which they were relatively forgiving for the driver. GT3 cars are relatively forgiving to drive compared to many other types of race cars, it's why they're so popular with amateur racers.

The point is that if you're finding a relatively forgiving car to be difficult to push to the limit, the other cars which are acknowledged to be more difficult and less forgiving are going to be really, really challenging. Which means that a lot of "interesting" cars are going to have to be neutered considerably in order to reach the level of not too hard to drive to the limit. Some of them will have to be changed so much it becomes a question of are you still driving that car, or are you just driving an imaginary car that happens to have the shell of a Lotus 98T on the outside?

This is how we end up with a game that is a very, very long way from realistic even though that was never the goal.

But do you see the contradiction I originally pointed out now? You want more realism in driving techniques, but less realism in car response to those driving techniques. Those two things are not entirely independent and it goes both ways. You can't change one without affecting the other. A car that has altered handling characteristics is going to let the driver get away with driving techniques that simply wouldn't work in real life. Or as is the subject of this thread, certain driving techniques won't do what they should because of those altered handling characteristics.

Perhaps I've put this all wrong by making such a sweeping statement. I would not expect a Lotus 98T to be as easy to drive as a GT3 car and that's fine because they're different vehicles. I'm saying that each car should be a little more forgiving than their real-life counterparts, but not to the point where the handling characteristics are completely out.

 

[LeGeNd-1]

All I want for GT7 is a dumbed-down version of ACC's physics model where each car is easier to drive. And if you think driving to the limit in a GT3 car is easy, you're dead wrong. I drive as hard as I can and I'm still 2 seconds slower than the fastest drivers in my league. Driving at 100% is very hard no matter what car you're in, particularly in a hardcore simulator. Again, I don't want that for GT7. I understand that it won't be as accurate, but I don't want it to be. And I'm allowed to think that, aren't I?

Quoting myself from the GT7 Physics thread here:

Again this is a classic misunderstanding of what "realistic" physics is by the general population. I've said it many times before, realistic =/= hard. Realistic = intuitive.

If you haven't already, do yourself a favour and try the LaFerrari in Assetto Corsa and compare it to GT Sport. Then do the same with the 458/Huracan/R8 LMS GT3/Gr.3. Come back and tell me which one is easier to drive

 

[HugoTwoWheels]

Quoting myself from the GT7 Physics thread here:

Can I have a spoiler on this one? My guess is that GT Sport is more difficult, since they really aren't easy with a wheel. Lift-off or brake and turn the wheel a tad too hard and you're ****ed. (Yeah, drifting is cool, but slow.)

 

[mwoodski]

GT3 cars are very, very easy to go quick in, and they're designed to be that way.

Much like any racecar though, the last 10-15% of pace comes down to the drivers abilities to extract everything from it.

 

[daan]

Why is the conversation about GT3s, V8 Supercars and Lotus 98Ts when the topic is FWD physics?

 

[05XR8]

Oh, dang. Just realised I made Jordan’s poo list.