Need help weaning myself from TCS

[GrumpyOldMan]

Question:

When you've got TCS set to 0, how can you tell how much gas you can give a turn before spinning out? Does the car/game give you any indication the tires are about to let loose? In a real car, at least the ones I've tried this with, you can feel when the car is on the edge. But I have no clue with the game. By the time I start losing the rear end, it's too late. What's the secret?

Background:

I started sim racing in May. I'm retired, so I play it every day. I have a Logitech G Pro wheel and pedals, and I learned how to gas with the right foot and brake with the left (it was easier than I thought it would be, especially since the G Pro Pedals allowed me to remove the clutch pedal and move the brake all the way to the left, so I don't have to keep my knees so close together).

I've been racing with TCS 1, ASM on, and Countersteering Assistance at Strong. I've been racing daily race b at Trial Mountain, and I've kind of hit a wall with a QT of 1:52. So I thought I'd try turning TCS to 0 and see what happens.

I'm encouraged with the results - meaning that I saw some improvement: I was quicker through the first turns, and with a little patience I managed to avoid spinning out on turns 5-6. It'll take a little while to get comfortable with turn 8.

But the last turns, 13-15, have me stumped. I feel like I have to creep around them to keep from losing it. Hence, my question above.

 

[Abarth_71]

I just got a feel for it over time and started to learn how much gas to give each car. Just keep practicing, and try turning off ASM and countersteer. That'll definitely encourage throttle and car control.

 

[mad4pancakes]

Start by turning countersteering assistance off. Especially with a wheel, that will mess with your perception of the relationship between steering angle and where the car is going. As far as not spinning out goes, you'll start to get the feel of when the car's rotation suddenly increases but your steering angle did not as you start to apply the gas. Depending on the car you have to figure out how sensitive it is to gas while cornering. Most 4WD and FF you can just mash the pedal down as quick as you want with minimal consequence, typically understeer. Any RWD car you will have to be more ginger and gradually build the throttle up as you release the steering angle. Avoid full throttle until the wheel is within 15-20 degrees of straight.

 

[bread82]

On DS4 controller you get a rumble as the wheels start to spin - I guess your wheel will do similar on force feedback, but I've not used a wheel on GT7 yet. It can be harder to correct mistakes on wheels (I used one on previous GTs) as it takes longer to countersteer vs a pad.

Definitely turn off the assists. It may feel horrible to begin with but you'll improve faster.

Also, in general in GT7 there is a lot of oversteer compared to previous games, so you may want to tune suspension to tame the car's tendencies. Any of (for RWD): softer rear springs and roll bar, a small amount of camber, lower LSD Accel, and if at high speed, more rear aero can help.

 

[TJC_69]

It takes practice, patience and practice. You should make a habit of turning them all off apart from ABS default. And leave them off. This way you'll build the necessary muscle memory, pad or wheel, to understand and feel when your car is on the limit. I've helped many drivers over the past 2 years get much faster by running lobbies with only ABS and driving line available. And they improved massively without the options, or temptation to use those options by having them available.

Turn them off. Leave them off. Feel and learn.

 

[FOG-Smokebeer]

It helps to learn how much to press the peds to get 1/2,1/3 throttle etc coming out the turns. Do a few slow laps and watch the red bars that move next to the clocks it helps get a feel for the correct throttle positions

 

[TumeK5]

Umm...

When you've got TCS set to 0, how can you tell how much gas you can give a turn before spinning out?

There's just no simple answer for this, every car is different. Power, throttle response, grip on the rear...all those factors.

I have no clue with the game. By the time I start losing the rear end, it's too late.

That's the thing, you shouldn't "see" when the car is already getting loose. You feel it. Just as you feel like the car is getting the slightest bit out of shape, you prepare for either countersteer or simply backing off throttle.

These are the things that come with time. But as a general rule of thumb, turning too hard on exit relative to the amount of throttle you're giving is the worst thing to do. Also depends on the speed of the corner...low speed are the worst when it comes to spinning out, as you're turning hard and there's no momentum to keep the car steady.

 

[benjoi84]

As others have said, just turn off the assists and gradually you'll learn. I've never used CSA but turning TCS off was PAINFUL.

The pain unfortunately was necessary and here we are now, 6 years later and generally TCS-free!

 

[TumeK5]

I'd also like to add sometimes listening to the engine's revs can work too! When they rise unnaturally fast, you're having wheelspin.

 

[srpst23]

When I was weaning myself off of TCS, I started in lower power cars and gradually worked up in HP. Although I'm not 100 percent there yet, I still use TCS on certain Group 1 cars.

 

[Talon16]

There's no magic pill, you just have to put the time it. I can be difficult (depending on the car) but it will shave LOADS of time off your laps. Some cars are more prone/difficult than others.

For Gr3 cars, the Porsche, Supra, Jag, and Ford GT 18 (though that is an MR so it has another set of special issues to content with) all have very stable rears. They're very forgiving coming out of turns. So maybe start there and move on to other cars that are a little less forgiving.

The throttle isn't binary; it's not an on/off switch. One of my driving instructors I had a while back said something to the effect of (and I am paraphrasing) "Pretend there's a string attached from the wheel to the gas pedal. As you start straightening out the wheel, you start easing onto the gas pedal." So yea, there's a ratio between the two: as you start to straighten out the wheel you can apply more throttle.

 

[hermtownhomy]

Definitely turn off ASM and Countersteering Assist. It will seem harder at first, but it forces you to be more patient. Those two assists are covering up the exact things you are doing to cause spinouts, thus not allowing your own hand eye coordination and muscle memory to develop that almost instinctive or unconscious feeling that you are close to spinning. Then, just be patient, and, with time and practice, you will magically get better at it. At least that was my experience. Like you, I am recently retired and so getting a little more time to spend on it. One thing that might help a little is to think of the wheel and gas pedal as being tied to together with a string, from the bottom of the steering wheel to the top of the accelerator. So when you are hitting the apex of a turn, you can't start pressing the accelerator until you start unwinding the wheel.
Also, maybe don't use mid-engine cars until you get a better feel for it. They, as opposed to front-engined cars, are a lot snappier when it comes to spins. So just use front engined, rear drive cars for awhile. Be patient coming out of the corner, and time and experience will be your friend.
Edit: LOL. Talon16 posted while I was writing the same tip about the string. It's probably a pretty common theme instructors use... I've heard it from more than one.

 

[shadow0460]

Get on GT1 and win the Dodge Concept Car. That thing will snap oversteer in a heartbeat, but it was necessary for me to drive it to win the final championship and the Grand Valley Endurance race.
You'll learn quick that way!

 

[GTboyz]

I apologize for sounding like a broken record but to be honest you have to put your time on practicing. It's something you feel over time.

And turn off all assists helps speed up your learning.

 

[Goshin2568]

You definitely should be able to feel it through the wheel. It will be a little jerk or nudge (depending on the specific circumstances) in the same direction that you would countersteer. This is because there is usually less resistance for the steering wheel to move than for the front tires to change their angle once you start to rotate. It takes time and practice to recognize this, and then to develop the skill and reflexes to correctly react to it, but the information is there.

It's possible that countersteering assist and ASM could be interfering with this in some way (and just in general they're not good assists for the most part) so I'd definitely recommend turning them off. It's very much worth it, I promise. Just push through the learning curve and you'll end up not only a better and faster driver, but having more fun as well.

 

[pedrocor]

Like the other answers, turn off ASM and CSA also.
Beware that, in the short run, you will be slower without CSA, but you will have a lot more fell in the car and the dynamic differences between cars also.

 

[MIE1992]

I usually have TCS on or off depending on the car. I wouldn't feel bad about using it where you feel it's necessary. I think tons of real-life racers use it, too.

 

[jrbabbitt]

What has helped me was doing the 30 minute WTC700 at LeMans and turning off the TCS with the various cars I use to grind with, some are tail happy and need a light touch on throttle at exit of turns especially the sharp 90s

 

[hollowkatt]

Question:

When you've got TCS set to 0, how can you tell how much gas you can give a turn before spinning out? Does the car/game give you any indication the tires are about to let loose? In a real car, at least the ones I've tried this with, you can feel when the car is on the edge. But I have no clue with the game. By the time I start losing the rear end, it's too late. What's the secret?

Background:

I started sim racing in May. I'm retired, so I play it every day. I have a Logitech G Pro wheel and pedals, and I learned how to gas with the right foot and brake with the left (it was easier than I thought it would be, especially since the G Pro Pedals allowed me to remove the clutch pedal and move the brake all the way to the left, so I don't have to keep my knees so close together).

I've been racing with TCS 1, ASM on, and Countersteering Assistance at Strong. I've been racing daily race b at Trial Mountain, and I've kind of hit a wall with a QT of 1:52. So I thought I'd try turning TCS to 0 and see what happens.

I'm encouraged with the results - meaning that I saw some improvement: I was quicker through the first turns, and with a little patience I managed to avoid spinning out on turns 5-6. It'll take a little while to get comfortable with turn 8.

But the last turns, 13-15, have me stumped. I feel like I have to creep around them to keep from losing it. Hence, my question above.

I had better results going faster by turning off all the assists other than TCS first. That way I was learning the true way my preferred car handled, then I could start learning how to manage my rear end better.
Since the controller triggers are feedback (and I assume your pedals are as well) you can use that to start getting a feel for where the car wants to break lose on you on corner exit.

So basically I go into qualifying/practice like this (for any car more powerful than GR.4): No assist on except TCS 1. Run a few laps to get a base line number.

Turn TCS off and start figuring out where I lose the back end, and eventually my times come tumbling down. Basically it becomes a "feel" thing more than anything else. I just know at what throttle percent I'm going to lose the rear end and I avoid hitting that threshold till I'm pointed in a straight line

 

[RacinLei]

@GrumpyOldMan

What also helps is a display with low inputlag, you can better controle and faster catch the car if you lose the rear end.
And put tire sound to max. To hear what happens is also a good indicator.

The rest is practice practice practice

 

[Sunzi]

You just get a feel for it.

When I first started playing the thought of turning TCS off was inconceivable..the thought of turning it back on is now inconceivable.

Play without it long enough and you feel it dampening your speed out of the corners.

 

[GrumpyOldMan]

Thanks, everyone - I appreciate all the advice!!

 

[dabz343]

In my experience, those that cannot run without TC are usually suffering from various issues, but there is one that is consistently present.

If you have not already, get familiar with the traction circle and how weight transfer affects loads on all 4 tires and ultimately total grip. This may seem simple at first glance, but how you make inputs not only affects where the load goes, but how it gets there and perhaps most importantly, how it moves around and settles down -- or not -- in every turn. Subsequently, knowing how to vary your inputs (with decisiveness, finesse and patience) when cornering is essential.

Also, because we don't have G forces in sims, we have to adapt to 'sense' where the load is. Your DD wheel should be capable, so get to know what it's telling you...turning up your tire noise and turning down others should help enhance some cues.

 

[GrumpyOldMan]

In my experience, those that cannot run without TC are usually suffering from various issues, but there is one that is consistently present.

If you have not already, get familiar with the traction circle and how weight transfer affects loads on all 4 tires and ultimately total grip. This may seem simple at first glance, but how you make inputs not only affects where the load goes, but how it gets there and perhaps most importantly, how it moves around and settles down -- or not -- in every turn. Subsequently, knowing how to vary your inputs (with decisiveness, finesse and patience) when cornering is essential.

Also, because we don't have G forces in sims, we have to adapt to 'sense' where the load is. Your DD wheel should be capable, so get to know what it's telling you...turning up your tire noise and turning down others should help enhance some cues.

Thanks! These videos sound fascinating. I'll definitely be studying them.

 

[dabz343]

Good luck and have fun Grumps.

 

[ILLEAGLE_34]

Practice going sideways🍻 I would recommend any Group B rally cars on comfort hard tires on a road track. Adjust the torque splitting diff to like 10 front 90 rear or whatever feels right. Hand brake for bonus points 🍻

 

[sejtur]

Use a 92 NSX, completely stock at Tsukuba. It doesn't have that much power so that you have more chance to hold the car when it gets loose.

And all aids off except ABS. Enjoy!

 

[OJBrit]

This is what I did to get off TCS on GTS.

Start off with a low powered car (of any drivetrain). Take it to Miyabi.
Once you feel confident with that switch to a car with more power but FR.
Keep repeating this step of power increase until you are confident.
Then switch to an MR. Again keep going until you feel confident.

There will be lots of times where you will spin. Even after you're confident. All it takes is patience and dedication.
All we can offer is lots of good luck.

 

[NevilleNobody]

I have probably been the most vocal critic of TCS in GT7. In GTS you could run TC2 and be very competitive in A rated lobbies, yes it cost you time but you could do it. TCS1 was very subtle and again, very useable. In GT7, TCS1 is SAVAGEL:Y intrusive, it cuts power like a light switch and intrudes in places it just should not. I literally have ZERO idea what TCS2 to 5 is used for because TC1 is so powerful.

My solution is pick your cars. In Group 3 that means the RSR, McLaren, Z4 and the Supra, everything else is useless to me. On a wheel and good pedals, i imagine you need to very gently squeeze the throttle.

 

[GrumpyOldMan]

I literally have ZERO idea what TCS2 to 5 is used for because TC1 is so powerful.

Even I can see that. The only time I've tried anything greater than TCS1 recently was when doing the Tokyo grind with a glitched overpowered car. But even then I went back to TCS 1, so I totally get your point about that.