Need Surround Sound help... no center channel

[///M-Spec]

The system in question has these components:

DVD Player: Toshiba SD1600, bitstream optical out
Receiver: Sony STR-DE445
Speakers: Bose Acoustimass 10 Series II

Problem: After 3.5 years of working fine, I suddenly don't get dialog when playing DVDs in DTS or Dolby 5.1. The speaker works, because I can hear the center channel music, but no dialog.

There is a blue light that comes on the Sony to indicate it is receiving a surround-sound signal. This is still working. The LED screen crawls with DTS or 5.1 text when it plays. I can hear dialog when I switch to 2 speaker mode.

...but no dialog in either surround sound mode.

Any ideas? Is it the receiver, DVD player or speakers? TIA for any suggestions.


///M-Spec

 

[Solid Fro]

I'd say something is wrong with the receiver, since the speaker works as you say.

 

[2ez2KiLL]

Ive had that problem before, I think its with your dvd player. Last time i went to the setup in the dvd player and set it to 2 channel since i only run 2 speakers, but maybe u can set urs to 5.1 surround.

 

[TurboSmoke]

if the speaker is working then you are experienceing some kind of filtering of the voice frequencies...

i'll tell you a funny story...not long ago i had a friend at work from another dept who said the vocals had gone in thier hi-fi system....so i asked them to bring it in...being an electronics engineer i would have a look at it...after humping this huge JVC system into work...speakers an' all, i turned it on and played a CD...sure enough the vocals were very very quiet....until i noticed a little blue led that said 'karaoke'....she had the bloody system in karaoke function filtering out the singing!!...sure enough i pressed it out and back came the vocals....clearer than a lark on a summers morning.....let that be a lesson....i told her there was a loose wire inside...well i didnt want to make her look stupid now did i?

how is it when ever anything electrical/electronic is broke people always say...oh its probably just a loose wire?..its NEVER a loose wire...never ever...

 

[GilesGuthrie]

Well, I have a Sony receiver and a set of Bose speakers (Acoustimass 15), so I would put the receiver into "test mode", which should be on the remote control. It will play white noise into each channel in turn.

If you notice a palpable difference between the centre and front-left/front-right channels, you have a problem with the receiver or the centre speaker. Switch the wiring around on the speaker terminals, to wire the centre in the front-left, and the front-left into the centre outputs. DO NOT MOVE THE SPEAKERS! Now run the test again. If the problem moves to the front-left speaker then the problem is with the receiver. If the problem stays where it is, the centre speaker is defective.

Since you have Bose speakers, you should probably rotate them every six months or so. The centre speaker is the heaviest-worked in any surround setup, and since all 5 of your speakers are identical, you'd be advised to switch them around every so often to preserve the wear rates across all five channels.

 

[///M-Spec]

Thanks for the tips, guys. Gils, I never thought of rotating out speakers, that's sounds like soild advice.

Strangest thing about this problem: it works intermittantly now. Last night, after pulling the components off the ent. stand, checking all the wires, keeping the kid away from the break-me stuff, I went into a fit of frustration and gave the receiver a swift fist on the side --you know, like 'The Fonz' would -- and low and behold, it starts working again.

Now in this day-in-age of solid state electronics... how the hell could that have happened?

It may be time for a new receiver... any suggestions?


///M

 

[GilesGuthrie]

Originally posted by ///M-Spec
Thanks for the tips, guys. Gils, I never thought of rotating out speakers, that's sounds like soild advice.

Strangest thing about this problem: it works intermittantly now. Last night, after pulling the components off the ent. stand, checking all the wires, keeping the kid away from the break-me stuff, I went into a fit of frustration and gave the receiver a swift fist on the side --you know, like 'The Fonz' would -- and low and behold, it starts working again.

Now in this day-in-age of solid state electronics... how the hell could that have happened?

It may be time for a new receiver... any suggestions?


///M

Ah well, I guess it could be that you were in fact undoing some little-fingered handiwork! Oh, I can't wait for that to be happening to me! "Keep away from Daddy's cables!"

As for a new receiver...

Yamaha seem to be the top of the tree in the sub-£800 range at the moment. They have three models: RX-V440RDS (£300), DSP-AX640SE (£400) and RX-V640RDS (£470). All are five-star rated in What Hi-Fi, and they seem to favour the middle one for quality and value. And Denon seem to be well up there also, with one at £400 (AVR-1804) and one at £650 (AVR-2803), which is probably the unit with which I'd upgrade my Sony if I had the budget and inclination.

 

[2ez2KiLL]

What im wondering is, why are u using a sony reciever on a bose???

i would use a yamaha or a denon, their pretty good.. but plz, no sony

 

[GilesGuthrie]

Originally posted by 2ez2KiLL
What im wondering is, why are u using a sony reciever on a bose???

i would use a yamaha or a denon, their pretty good.. but plz, no sony

Well, the Acoustimass system is speakers-only, so you do need amplification, as opposed to the Bose Lifestyle systems.

The Sony receiver was the best sub-£400 receiver at the time I bought it. I note that Sony have gone quite significantly off the boil in the last two years, hence my not recommending them to ///M-Spec. I too would by a Yamaha or Denon receiver if I were buying today.

 

[///M-Spec]

Originally posted by GilesGuthrie
Ah well, I guess it could be that you were in fact undoing some little-fingered handiwork! Oh, I can't wait for that to be happening to me! "Keep away from Daddy's cables!"

No kidding! She's already snapped the DVD tray trying do a one handed pull-up on it. Now I have to hold the tray up with one hand while inserting the disc.

Originally posted by GilesGuthrie
As for a new receiver...

RX-V440RDS (£300),
DSP-AX640SE (£400)
RX-V640RDS (£470).

Wow. I doubt the Chief Financial Officer will approve something that high-end right now. I might order the Tenderloin when it comes to cars, but I have a Bottom Chuck budget when it comes to home ent. centers.

I didn't realize that Sony was on a decline. I remeber they were quite the gold standard when I was young (which I guess was a while ago).

What do you think of a Yamaha HTR-5630 ?


M

 

[Solid Lifters]

Originally posted by GilesGuthrie
Well, the Acoustimass system is speakers-only, so you do need amplification, as opposed to the Bose Lifestyle systems.

The Sony receiver was the best sub-£400 receiver at the time I bought it. I note that Sony have gone quite significantly off the boil in the last two years, hence my not recommending them to ///M-Spec. I too would by a Yamaha or Denon receiver if I were buying today.

I agree 100% with you, Giles. Sony is falling fast, and it's best to stay away from them.


I have the Sony STR-DE875 receiver, and when I play a DVD with Dolby Digital 5.1, the right rear is much lower in volume than the left rear channel, but with DTS, it's fine. This my second 875 receiver; the first one went back because the circuit breaker kept tripping, and then if wouldn't come back on. Even with just headphones hooked up.

I want a new receiver, but I don't like to have more than a 5.1 speaker system, and all they have today is either 6 or 7.1 systems.

 

[///M-Spec]

Well guys, against your advice and my own better judgement, I picked up a Sony STR DE595. Its the last stop before 6.1 in that line up.

Why? It was only $150 bucks at the BestBuy near my house... The better models had a bunch of features I don't need or use.

Everything works fine now, though I think I hear a distinct sound quality difference. The sound is really 'bright' and clear, but the mid-range seems to have no punch and the bottom end is downright weak.

Could this be my imagination? I thought the speakers primarily determine sound quality.. or does the receiver have a big impact?


M

 

[Solid Lifters]

Originally posted by ///M-Spec
Well guys, against your advice and my own better judgement, I picked up a Sony STR DE595. Its the last stop before 6.1 in that line up.

Why? It was only $150 bucks at the BestBuy near my house... The better models had a bunch of features I don't need or use.

Everything works fine now, though I think I hear a distinct sound quality difference. The sound is really 'bright' and clear, but the mid-range seems to have no punch and the bottom end is downright weak.

Could this be my imagination? I thought the speakers primarily determine sound quality.. or does the receiver have a big impact?


M

You're correct. The Sony receiver I have has a lousy bass response, and weak mid range. Guitar and vocals sound weak, but craknking up the volume turns great results. It's not because of my speaker system either, I have JBL Studio Series speakers.

My old Sony receiver sounds warmer, with a lot more boom to it, with greater mid range puch. You'll get use to it.

 

[GilesGuthrie]

Originally posted by ///M-Spec
Well guys, against your advice and my own better judgement, I picked up a Sony STR DE595. Its the last stop before 6.1 in that line up.

Why? It was only $150 bucks at the BestBuy near my house... The better models had a bunch of features I don't need or use.

Everything works fine now, though I think I hear a distinct sound quality difference. The sound is really 'bright' and clear, but the mid-range seems to have no punch and the bottom end is downright weak.

Could this be my imagination? I thought the speakers primarily determine sound quality.. or does the receiver have a big impact?


M

Well, for $150, you can't really complain!

The receiver will have a big effect as you're using it to decode the signal. You could try tuning it. Mine has a bass-response control, but I found it to be quite extreme.

 

[Solid Lifters]

M-Spec, I notice your model is a "limitied bandwidth" model. That means your amp does not reproduce the full music spectrum. Your amp is 40hz-20khz, and normal bandwidth is 20hz-20khz. That explains the reduced bass sound your're experiencing.

Does your receiver have a sub out? Sony makes a super sheap 60 watt 8 inch subwoofer. I got one free with my receiver, and it isn't bad. you might want to hook one up to your system.

 

[///M-Spec]

Originally posted by Solid Lifters
M-Spec, I notice your model is a "limitied bandwidth" model. That means your amp does not reproduce the full music spectrum. Your amp is 40hz-20khz, and normal bandwidth is 20hz-20khz. That explains the reduced bass sound your're experiencing.

Does your receiver have a sub out? Sony makes a super sheap 60 watt 8 inch subwoofer. I got one free with my receiver, and it isn't bad. you might want to hook one up to your system.

DOH! That would explain it then. No wonder I'm hearing a difference in the low end. The sound is there. It just doesn't have the same amount of presence the old amp did.

The 445 would rumble the windows during the pod racing scene in SW: Episode I. The 595, even though it's supposed to have more wattage sounds lifeless and weak.

But I guess you get what you pay for

About the Sub: the Bose Acoustimass has a sub that is "inline" with the 5.1 speaker lines. I set the receiver for "No Sub", and all the cables go into the Bose sub, which in turn routes out to the mini-speakers. I was very happy with this system when the 445 was driving it. But the 595 is a big let-down.

Which model do I need to get in order to get the entire bandwidth? Is this the "frequency response range" I see in literature sometimes?


M

 

[GilesGuthrie]

Originally posted by ///M-Spec
About the Sub: the Bose Acoustimass has a sub that is "inline" with the 5.1 speaker lines. I set the receiver for "No Sub", and all the cables go into the Bose sub, which in turn routes out to the mini-speakers. I was very happy with this system when the 445 was driving it. But the 595 is a big let-down.

Which model do I need to get in order to get the entire bandwidth? Is this the "frequency response range" I see in literature sometimes?

M

Are you sure? Note that what I'm about to say might be wrong based on the fact that you have the 10 system and I have the 15, but I configured my setup as "large speakers with subwoofer". Then, yeah, all the speaker connections run straight to the sub.

Do you have a connection from the Bose sub to the sub output on your amp? On mine, there's a phono connector for a line-level sub output from the amp. Is that the same for you?

 

[///M-Spec]

Originally posted by GilesGuthrie
Are you sure? Note that what I'm about to say might be wrong based on the fact that you have the 10 system and I have the 15, but I configured my setup as "large speakers with subwoofer". Then, yeah, all the speaker connections run straight to the sub.

Do you have a connection from the Bose sub to the sub output on your amp? On mine, there's a phono connector for a line-level sub output from the amp. Is that the same for you?

I think that may be the difference between the 10 and 15 model, Giles. I have no dedicated input jack on the Bose sub. So it is up to the main speakers to carry all the signal, and then I guess the sub performs the cutover.

Is your 'Sub In' jack on the Bose right by the other channels?

FYI, there is a 'Sub Out' jack on the DE595. I wish I can use it


M

 

[Solid Lifters]

The STR-DE695. It's one hundred dollars more than the 595. But, it adds not only full-bandwith, but 6x powered channels, Dolby Digital EX, DTS-ES, and a lot of different inputs that you don't need.

Stick to what you got. 6 channel movie watching sucks, IMO. It should be fine, but you might want to get a cheap sub woofer for it, if the lack of low bass is bugging you.

 

[GilesGuthrie]

Originally posted by ///M-Spec
I think that may be the difference between the 10 and 15 model, Giles. I have no dedicated input jack on the Bose sub. So it is up to the main speakers to carry all the signal, and then I guess the sub performs the cutover.

Is your 'Sub In' jack on the Bose right by the other channels?

FYI, there is a 'Sub Out' jack on the DE595. I wish I can use it


M

Fair enough. Yep, the 15s have a phono plug that goes to the sub output on the amp. It's part of the ribbon cable that heads straight for the sub.

Depending on the mood of the CFO, you can get a reasonable sub for movies work for relatively little. Something like £120 will secure you the base REL model.

Alternatively, you could offload the current amp on ebay, and buy one with the lower frequency response!

Or you could brass-neck it: take the current amp back to the store, say "It's s***", and demand your money back!

 

[///M-Spec]

Thanks gents for your input and advice; it's most appreciated. Solid, I'm going to do as you suggest and just deal with it for a few years, and then replace the whole thing at a later date. As my wife pointed out, I have very few occasions to rattle the windows anymore due to our baby heading to sleep at 8PM every night.

After further listening, I've also noticed that while bass volume is reduced, the quality and definition is better. Rather than just booming, I can hear all sorts of interesting, subtle harmonics in scenes I never noticed before. Overall, I think the 595 has better reproduction in the majority of the range.

BTW, I think I know where at least part of that bass went. The old 445 had a "Bass Boost" button that I permenantly had switched on. The 595 has no such animal. I looked around SonyStyle and discovered that feature doesn't exist anymore on any model. I wonder why?


M

 

[Solid Lifters]

Originally posted by ///M-Spec
Thanks gents for your input and advice; it's most appreciated. Solid, I'm going to do as you suggest and just deal with it for a few years, and then replace the whole thing at a later date. As my wife pointed out, I have very few occasions to rattle the windows anymore due to our baby heading to sleep at 8PM every night.

After further listening, I've also noticed that while bass volume is reduced, the quality and definition is better. Rather than just booming, I can hear all sorts of interesting, subtle harmonics in scenes I never noticed before. Overall, I think the 595 has better reproduction in the majority of the range.

BTW, I think I know where at least part of that bass went. The old 445 had a "Bass Boost" button that I permenantly had switched on. The 595 has no such animal. I looked around SonyStyle and discovered that feature doesn't exist anymore on any model. I wonder why?


M

Ahh yes, the bass boost button. I have a mid 70's Sony stereo that I use in my guitar setup that has one of those. I think it's 10db of boost at 50hz. Great feature.

 

[///M-Spec]

So you think this story is over, eh?

I benchmarked a few more movies Sunday morning. It was the orcs at Helm's Deep convinced me I had made a bad decision to stick it out with the Sony 595. While they looked scary on my TV screen, the sound they made as they growled and banged was positively whimpy.

So I made an executive desicion and over-rided the CFO --who oddly didn't put up the slightest fuss.

I went with a Yamaha as Giles suggested. The model is identified as HTR-5640. Oddly, it looks identical in appearence, spec and pricing to the RX-V440. Now I'm like a McDonalds commerical --"Lovin' it". Sound is even better than the old 440 and a quantum leap over the 595.

Giles, you wrote the RX-V440 is £300. But I got essentially a clone unit at $300 USD. Am I missing something here? Are electronics that much more expensive in the UK?


M

 

[GilesGuthrie]

Nice move M!

Did a bit more looking into it, and discount UK hi-fi shop Richer Sounds are advertising the HTR5640 at £195 (£300 rrp), and the RXV440 at £400.

I think that the UK does pay higher prices in general for everything, and particularly on electronics. Oh well, such is life I suppose.

With regard to the CFO, my guess is that she too was disappointed, but refusing to show it. When I first moved in with my then girlfriend (now wife), she moaned about the number of speakers. Then, about 6 months later, we watched a film at someone else's house, who did not have home cinema. As we sat in the taxi on the way home, she said "There's something really wrong with Chris's telly".

She'd simply assimilated home cinema into her perception, and everything else was just rubbish.

I think that with things like audio performance, guys tend to be more concerned with how something sounds now, and girls tend not to notice the higher quality. But when they go to lower quality, there's hell to pay!

Anyway, I think you chose wisely. What happened to the Sony?

 

[///M-Spec]

You may be right about that, Giles. I suspect she probably half wanted to head off years of listening to my complaining about the Sony too.

As for the Sony, we simply took it back to the store and told them it was a bit of joke and we wanted to exchange it. We picked out the Yamaha and they took the Sony back, no hassle.

Which still leaves the question of what the heck the difference is between the HTR5640 and RXV440.

I looked it up at Yamaha's site. HTR-5640 vs. RX-V440

It seems they are identical in spec. Yet, there's a rather large pricing difference between the two. Any idea?


M

 

[GilesGuthrie]

Yes, it's puzzling.

Now Richer Sounds are offering the RX-V440 at £199, a mere £5 more than the HTR-5640. Going to Yamaha.co.uk, both units are listed, along with a heap of others, at this page. Note that down at the bottom, the descriptions are identical, and that the prices are identical.

I'm beginning to suspect that one of the nomenclatures is in the process of going end-of-line, and that they're in the process of renaming them.

They've just released a model at £3,300. But it'll be a cold day in hell before I get permission to buy that!

 

[Solid Lifters]

Congrats on the new purchase! i'll never buy another Sony product again, myself. Well, I will buy a PS3, but that's it!

I see no difference in the two amps, also. At first, I thought one had component video switching, and the other didn't, but both receivers have it,

Ahhh, Bass Boost feature! And, what did I say? +10db at 50hz. Nice. A treable boost at +10db at 20khz? Gees, only a dog is gonna hear that! They should lower it to 12 or 15khz.

A bit underpowered for my tastes, but a damn fine unit! 6.1? Blah!