Nevadan Farmer not allowed to use public land for his grazing cattle

[Enemem]

Heads up.

.

 

[Grayfox]

Can you say what is happening rather than posting a video?

 

[Enemem]

Yes. Cliven and Carol Bundy are the last ranchers in Clark County Nevada. They are being thrown off their land. They have been surrounded by federal agents, and they have had their access to public land blocked.

 

[Vegard]

They have been surrounded by federal agents, and they have had their access to public land blocked.

Threatening federal agents with "range war" for doing their job will do that.

 

[niky]

So... the Federal government limited his cattle's grazing rights on public land to protect an endangered species, and he refused to obey a Federal order?

And after being given the order to cease and desist numerous times, he continued to use protected lands as grazing land, which has led to the confiscation of his cattle?

Now he's calling for militia support in a standoff against the Federal Government, which has not yet acted to arrest him, and is still merely confiscating cattle he's releasing onto public lands illegally?

-

While I feel sorry for him, that his livelihood has been severely threatened by this, it's not as if the Federal Government is throwing him off of his own private property. They are telling him he can no longer use a certain piece of public land for his personal business.

That is completely different.

 

[Enemem]

Bundy's family has been farming the land since the 1880's. He won't pay to use it. That's the problem.


Ah tortoises. http://www.kcet.org/news/redefine/r...igence-on-desert-tortoise-other-wildlife.html

It's a crock. They're more bothered in pushing people round.

Just an excuse. I suspect $6 billion dollars would help the plight of the tortoises.

 

[ExigeEvan]

You appear to have entered this discussion with an open mind and a well-rounded opinion.

From my background reading, it sounds like this rancher has completely disregarded the law of the land at every opportunity. And is now likely to be arrested.

 

[niky]

Bundy's family has been farming the land since the 1880's. He won't pay to use it. That's the problem.

I don't seen how that's any different from what we said.

Because it is a problem. Public* land is understood to be for public use.

*Public meaning it is understood to be owned by the People of the United States of America in general, and not you, in particular, and is maintained by the Federal Government as part of their service for the People of the United States of America in general, and not you, in particular.

If you're using public land for commercial use, then you do so at the disgression of the Federal government. I think the head of the Nevada Cattleman's Association in the link given explains it best:

http://abcnews.go.com/Business/neva...ge-war-feds/story?id=23225314&singlePage=true

So far, the Nevada Cattlemen's Association (NCA), which represents some 700 ranchers in the state, is taking a hands-off stance on Bundy's protest. The association noted that Bundy's case had been reviewed by a federal judge, and that a legal decision had been rendered to remove the cattle.

Asked if other Nevada cattlemen were as angry with the federal government as Bundy, Torell said, "absolutely not."

It's true, he said, that many NCA members are disgruntled at having to deal with BLM's bureaucracy. But, he noted, 87 percent of Nevada land is public land, so cattlemen cannot survive on private land alone. "It's important for our permitees to work with the land management agencies. We want to be good stewards of the land -- to protect natural resources."

Take note: Permitee. Given permission to use, by the Federal Government (which, last I recall, is older than 1880), not given sole ownership or proprietorship of the land. All the other ranchers understand and respect that... even if they don't like the rules, they know enough to follow them. This particular one... doesn't.

-----

And the negligence of the Federal Government in fulfilling one duty has no bearing on whether it should fulfill another duty. This is like saying that since police fail to report crime statistics, they shouldn't actually do their primary job in stopping crime.

 

[Enemem]

If they're so bothered then then should be doing it right. You tell me how the horses/cattle are endangering the tortoises.

And maybe he's the only one being pushed out. That may account for other cattlemen not being bothered.

 

[ExigeEvan]

If they're so bothered then then should be doing it right. You tell me how the horses are endangering the tortoises.

And maybe he's the only one being pushed out. That may account for other cattlemen not being bothered.

Because the cattle and tortoise eat the same thing, vegetation. And the tortoise burrow, and cattle tend to be quite heavy.

 

[Enemem]

http://www.nps.gov/jotr/naturescience/tortoise.htm

Doesn't mention cattle being a problem. Just people.

Several factors conspired to diminish the population of the desert tortoise. As more people moved into the western deserts, the resultant loss of habitat made a serious dent in the number of tortoises. With more people came more ravens, large black birds with a keen appetite for hatchling tortoises. The number of ravens has exploded in recent years, due in large part to their ability to thrive in developed areas. The factors contributing to their dramatic increase include more roads, thus more roadkill; landfills; powerline poles, an ideal lookout post for hungry ravens; and littering. Litter in the park attracts ravens, so please dispose of your garbage responsibly.

 

[TenEightyOne]

The Cattlemen are the experts in this case, I think. They seem to note the difference between private/public land. They also seem to accept that there isn't enough private land and that they need to work with Federal agencies to find workable solutions.

Reading between the lines I'd say that whatever Bundy is doing is something they're not interested in entertaining - perhaps it actually harms their cause as an "ecological benefit" over time?

Asked if other Nevada cattlemen were as angry with the federal government as Bundy, Torell said, "absolutely not."

 

[Enemem]

Threatening federal agents with "range war" for doing their job will do that.

Threatening farmers with losing their livelihood is okay though?

The Cattlemen are the experts in this case, I think. They seem to note the difference between private/public land. They also seem to accept that there isn't enough private land and that they need to work with Federal agencies to find workable solutions.

Reading between the lines I'd say that whatever Bundy is doing is something they're not interested in entertaining - perhaps it actually harms their cause as an "ecological benefit" over time?

Perhaps. I only opened the thread to post a mark. What do you think will happen? And what do you think should happen?

Just because they say it's for the tortoises, doesn't make it so.

Anyone hear rustling?

 

[TenEightyOne]

@Emenem, that quote went badly EDIT: You fixed it

I'm only guessing based on my own "between the lines" judgement from that article - but I do feel that if he had a stronger case then the other cattlemen would be quick to support him.

 

[Enemem]

What other cattlemen?

“Years ago, I used to have 52 neighboring ranchers,” he said. “I’m the last man standing. How come? Because BLM regulated these people off the land and out of business.”

I feel that if your family has been farming the land for 140 years that they should be allowed to continue. It's not like he's polluting the place or doing anything nasty like fracking etc.

 

[Famine]

Can you say what is happening rather than posting a video?

A farmer wants to use public land to feed his cows because he's always done that, the authorities don't want him to because it's home to a rare species of tortoise that cows would kill. And it's being presented as "Federal government want to throw a farmer off his land" because spin.

 

[BobK]

The title should be changed from "Texan Farmer being thrown off his land" to "Texan Farmer being thrown off public land".

Threatening farmers with losing their livelihood is okay though?

If he's breaking the law then yeah, sure, why not?

 

[niky]

Threatening farmers with losing their livelihood is okay though?

It's sad for him, yes, but this is no different from fracking operations being halted over environmental concerns, is it?

http://grist.org/news/fracking-halted-at-ohio-site-following-earthquakes/

People stand to lose money gained by exploiting public land, because the government deems it necessary to protect that land.

Cry me a river. If the rancher owned the land, I'd say he has a primo case. Since he doesn't, tough.

 

[wfooshee]

Threatening farmers with losing their livelihood is okay though

He's perfectly welcome to his livelihood through legal means. They want him to stop using public land.

The fact that he's always done so does not imply forever permission to continue. That's what you seem to be missing.

 

[ExigeEvan]

http://www.nps.gov/jotr/naturescience/tortoise.htm

Doesn't mention cattle being a problem. Just people.

Hot Sauce - http://www.blm.gov/ca/pdfs/cdd_pdfs/dta.pdf

Grazing. Grazing by cattle and sheep has several potential direct and indirect effects on
tortoise populations. These include: mortality from crushing of animals or their burrows,
destruction of vegetation, alteration of soil, augmentation of forage (e.g., presence of livestock
droppings, and stimulation of vegetative growth or nutritive value of forage plants), and
competition for food. There is weak evidence for declines in tortoise density directly associated
with grazing, but its evaluation is complicated by the presence of multiple factors affecting
tortoises at most sites and the difficulty of being able to measure accurately tortoise densities to
assay direct effects (Luke et al. 1991, Oldemeyer 1994). There are observations of sheep or
cattle stepping on tortoises or their burrows (Berry 1978, Nicholson and Humphreys 1981, Avery
1998). Cattle may out compete tortoises for some seasonally important forage species (i.e.,
desert dandelions, Malacothrix glabrata; Avery 1998), but the few studies testing for it do not
show strong effects of competition (Tracy 1996). Past studies have shown dietary overlap, a
condition necessary, but not sufficient, to show competition (Avery 1998). There are only two
studies showing sheep and tortoises eat some of the same food items (Hansen et al. 1976,
Nicholson and Humphreys 1981). However, there are no studies that tested if sheep compete
with tortoises for food. If livestock significantly affect tortoise populations, it is most likely
through habitat alteration. Sheep and cattle are known to compact soil, trample vegetation, and
cause observable changes in the composition and structure of the plant and animal communities
(Nicholson and Humphreys 1981, Webb and Stielstra 1979, Berry 1978, Brooks 1995, Avery et
al. in prep.). No evidence is available to indicate that sheep or cattle benefit tortoises by
providing food or improving habitat condition in the Mojave Desert (cf. Bostick 1990).

So the interesting thing is that there's no strong evidence that grazing has a major impact on tortoises, but then again it's quite hard to measure when you're considering such large areas.

That said, if for the sake of experiment they want to remove cattle from public land so that they can evaluate the impact, I also don't think that is an issue.

 

[Pupik]

What's missing in the argument is when the land stopped being "private" and became "public": by what means, laws, and for "how much money was exchanged".

 

[Joel]

I feel that if your family has been farming the land for 140 years that they should be allowed to continue. It's not like he's polluting the place or doing anything nasty like fracking etc.

So you support the use of public land for private businesses despite environmental concerns except for when you don't support the use of public land for private businesses due to environmental concerns. Cool.

 

[DK]

Yes. Cliven and Carol Bundy are the last ranchers in Clark County Nevada. They are being thrown off their land. They have been surrounded by federal agents, and they have had their access to public land blocked.

In that case, shouldn't the thread title be "Nevada Farmer Being Thrown Off Public Land"?

 

[Blitz24]

Where are the horses and Texas coming from? Not only is your viewpoint a bit ignorant but you made almost zero effort to check that you are making a factually correct thread.

 

[Grayfox]

I feel that if your family has been farming the land for 140 years that they should be allowed to continue. It's not like he's polluting the place or doing anything nasty like fracking etc.

Do you know what kind of damage cows do to the land?

They can strip the land of every single blade of grass and pretty much make it so nothing grows again by compacting the soil down

 

[Badasp5.0]

Good to know Nevada is in Texas now

 

[Blitz24]

Good to know Nevada is in Texas now

A revisionist America. Anyplace that is not easily identifiable in the USA is deemed one of the following:
California, Texas, New York, Florida.

Sort of like how people assume that if you are from Asia you are Chinese, Indian, or Japanese

 

[Badasp5.0]

A revisionist America. Anyplace that is not easily identifiable in the USA is deemed one of the following:
California, Texas, New York, Florida.

Sort of like how people assume that if you are from Asia you are Chinese, Indian, or Japanese

Welcome to our world in New Mexico. People from the rest of the country think we are Arizona or the Country of Mexico and not Americans.

 

[FoolKiller]

It should be noted here that Bundy says his family had homestead rights to that land. All was good until 1993.

http://reason.com/blog/2014/04/08/nevada-rancher-threatens-range-war-over

He insists his family has homestead rights to that land from the 1880s that predate the federal government's claims.

That creates an issue, as Homestead Rights are a state or local issue. If he is correct, then the Feds trampled local jurisdictional law. That said, I am not sure Homestead Rights give him what he thinks.

That said, The Feds are doing a great job of showing just how every law is done at gunpoint.

a spokesperson for the National Park Service were told that Bundy supporters had reported seeing snipers present near the Ranch. Asked whether snipers indeed were on the scene, they said that law enforcement was in place, as needed, and that they could not comment more specifically.

They might not be able to comment, but a picture is worth a thousand words.

Too distant to see if it is snipers or just lookouts. But let's be honest, not saying/proving they aren't snipers is a fear tactic by the government. The non-denial leads people to think these likely are snipers, whether they really are or not.

The Cattlemen are the experts in this case, I think. They seem to note the difference between private/public land. They also seem to accept that there isn't enough private land and that they need to work with Federal agencies to find workable solutions.

Reading between the lines I'd say that whatever Bundy is doing is something they're not interested in entertaining - perhaps it actually harms their cause as an "ecological benefit" over time?

Weird.
http://www.8newsnow.com/story/25208148/tensions-increase-as-feds-seize-cattle

LAS VEGAS -- Tensions are growing as people in the community of Bunkerville are trying to stop federal agents from taking cattle off of public land.

During a Wednesday's night town meeting, community members came out in force to support rancher Cliven Bundy. They gave him a standing ovation when he got up to speak.

"I love you people. And I love this land, and I love freedom and liberty," Bundy told the crowd.

"I want to tell you and thank you for being brave enough to stand up for me, for my freedom, for my liberties and my land," Overton area resident Kelly Houston said.

"I openly, publicly and personally say: I stand with the Bundys," Overton area resident Laura Bledsoe said.

Resident not only showed support for the Bundy family, they also condemned the federal government for what they called heavy-handed tactics.

Earlier in the day, BLM and park rangers had tasers ready to go as they faced a few dozen protesters.

One woman claims federal officers hit her with their vehicle. A man says he was tased twice. In just a matter of minutes, the situation escalated from calm to angry with the protestors shouting and the rangers ready to respond with dogs, tasers and physical force, if needed.

At the center of this battle is the Bundy family and their herd of at least 500 head of cattle. The BLM says the cattle have been allowed to graze on the federal land illegally for the past 20 years.

"You want to tase me? Go ahead," Ammon Bundy challenged rangers.

He is the son of rancher Cliven Bundy and he claims the rangers tased him twice.

The protesters came within inches of law enforcement trying to get the BLM to leave a section of the public land. The Bundy family says it's willing to put itself in danger for their livelihood. They claim federal rangers are killing their cattle in the process of rounding them up.

"There's only one reason they have a backhoe and a dump truck up there and that is because they're cleaning up their mess from killing our animals," Ammon Bundy said.

The ranchers say this is calving season and mother cows are being separated from their babies.

"They haven't been able to feed their calves and that means the calves are starving to death," Ammon Bundy said.

The BLM has denied killing any cattle intentionally, only saying that there may be some cases where a cow would need to be euthanized.

"Get out of our state! Get out of our state!" protestors yelled.

The BLM has left the area, for now. However, not everyone left the skirmish unharmed. One of the Bundy sisters says a ranger hit her with a car which threw her to the ground.

"I'm shook up, my hand's cut, my knee's you know, banged up," Margaret Bundy-Houston said.

Although the BLM rangers are out of the area, they insist they'll be back to take all of the cattle that are on the land illegally.

In a statement released late Wednesday afternoon, the BLM and park service said in part:

"In recent days, some peaceful protests have crossed into illegal activity, including blocking vehicles associated with the gather, impeding cattle movement, and making direct and overt threats to government employees. These isolated actions that have jeopardized the safety of individuals have been responded to with appropriate law enforcement actions.

Today, a BLM truck driven by a non-law enforcement civilian employee assisting with gather operations was struck by a protester on an ATV and the truck's exit from the area was blocked by a group of individuals who gathered around the vehicle. A police dog was also kicked. Law enforcement officers attempting to protect the civilian federal employee from the attack were also threatened and assaulted. After multiple requests and ample verbal warnings, law enforcement officers deployed tasers on a protestor."

The BLM and park service also point out that they have tried to resolve the issue with Bundy for more than 20 years. They accuse him of not complying with several court orders directing him to remove his cattle from public lands.

Besides complaints of tough tactics, people at the meeting Wednesday night also said the dispute was hurting the economic well being of the area because trails are closed and armed federal agents in the area are scaring away tourists.

There is a video report at the link.

And some You Tube videos. [LANGUAGE WARNING]

The Protest


The Town-meeting.


It seems to me as if they have plenty of support, just not from a handful of guys who can only speak for themselves, but claim they speak for all cattlemen because they won an election in the past.


Ultimately, I don't know whether Bundy is right or wrong regarding the land disputes. What I do know is that showing up with an armed force, including snipers, tasers, and K-9 units is a large intimidation tactic that goes far beyond what is necessary. This shows just how much our government has stopped trying to hide the fact that whatever they say is enforced at gunpoint. A land dispute requires this kind of response? At this point, I want Bundy to win just because, as Captain America says, "I don't like bullies; I don't care where they're from." And also, "This isn't freedom. This is fear."

And hey, maybe I'm too much of an idealist to think government should work like this. But someone agrees with me.
http://www.jrn.com/ktnv/news/Gov-Brian-Sandoval-attacks-BLM-in-cattle-roundup-controversy-254482011.html

Due to the roundup by the BLM, my office has received numerous complaints of BLM conduct, road closures and other disturbances. I have recently met with state legislators, county officials and concerned citizens to listen to their concerns.

I have expressed those concerns directly to the BLM. Most disturbing to me is the BLM's establishment of a 'First Amendment Area' that tramples upon Nevadans' fundamental rights under the U.S. Constitution.

To that end, I have advised the BLM that such conduct is offensive to me and countless others and that the 'First Amendment Area' should be dismantled immediately.

No cow justifies the atmosphere of intimidation which currently exists nor the limitation of constitutional rights that are sacred to all Nevadans.

The BLM needs to reconsider its approach to this matter and act accordingly.

Are we going state vs. Feds here?


This is a warning to everyone. If you have a disagreement with the government and stand up to them because you believe your rights are being violated, you just might find yourself in a sniper rifle's scope.

If this goes Waco, at this point I believe it is the government's fault for using over zealous tactics. I bet a simple arrest or detainment of Bundy, while removing the cattle, could have made all this go smoother. They have grounds, as he supposedly violated a court order. Instead, they show up in mass, loaded with weapons, and use behavior that very well may have turned a handful of protesting neighbors into a slowly growing militia.

 

[a6m5]

I'll be following this one. I tend to side with the Federal enforcement, but I feel like a total idiot on this one, because I have no idea who, or if either party's completely in the right. I am however amazed how the Government pick & choose when to send an Army(figure of speech) to enforce the law, or just look the other way & act as though the problem absolutely does not exist.

Regardless of who's in the right, great post @FoolKiller. 👍

Welcome to our world in New Mexico. People from the rest of the country think we are Arizona or the Country of Mexico and not Americans.

Excellent English, amigo.