New difficulty level needed?

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DodgySyrup

DodgySyrup

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Title says it all, so who thinks the A.I is too easy on professional in the single race/custom race setting, and we need a new harder difficulty level to really give us a challenge?

Even if I start last it is still too easy to get to the front, even in a 3 lap race...well, perhaps with a few exceptions.

Tsukuba is so short and cramped it can sometimes be a challenge to get past all 20 cars without hitting any of them in so few laps.

But generally, the A.I are too easy to pass and you can make up so much time under braking and through the faster corners the require a bit of "bravery", which is something the rather predictable and cautious A.I avoid.

Unsurprisingly, they are robotic and don't take many risks.

I would like to a new Expert level where they are at least 2 or 3 seconds per lap quicker.

I know it can be different for particular cars driven at particular circuits, but as a general rule I think they are underwhelming and need to be improved.

What do you all think?

Is it just right as it is?

Do you feel it is already a challenge?

Or would you like something that really pushes you and is more akin to racing humans, in the sense the A.I pressure you, attack, and are much more daring and aggressive?
 
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I'd personally agree that we need to see more difficulty throughout . There isn't a challenge offline that I've been beaten by yet .
Where I have finished 2nd or 3rd it's normally because I've spun out and just missed out on winning on the line once recovered
 
I wouldn't be against it, but I'd rather they fixed some of the issues with the AI's driving style first.

As an example, I was doing a Custom Race 5 lapper at Bathurst in Gr.3 cars with professional difficulty. I was driving the Ford Mustang Gr.3 - no idea if it's a quick car or not - but the fact is I was loosing time around most parts of the track compared to the AI.... which made for an actual challenge... that is, until the AI cars get to Mcphillamy park at the top of the hill, they insist on braking, which kills all their momentum. This allowed me to make up seconds per lap, there's no point in having a higher difficulty setting to make the cars even more uncatchable through certain sections when they still stand on their brakes as soon as there's any lateral slip required to be quick.

On the flipside, there was some genuine side by side moments and late braking attempts by both me and the AI. Frustratingly, one of my weaknesses is the opposite of the AI's... I always drive TCS off and getting the power down smoothly and quickly is something I'm not great at in higher powered cars.. the AI gets it perfect every time, so they're nearly always faster out of corners, though I'm faster into and through them.
 
I feel like the professional difficulty is already fine as it is and it's challenging enough to keep my interest afloat. Additionally adding the BoP already adds the challenge for me.

Though I wouldn't mind seeing them pull a Gran Turismo 3 arcade mode where there's 4 difficulties (Easy/Normal/Hard/Professional) with the last one being challenging enough.
 
If you guys want more of a challenge, you could always use a less powerful car and/or worse tyres. (Or try Sport Mode. There’s nothing quite as challenging, exhilarating or satisfying as competing with other humans. Just make sure you’re in SR S, though)
 
I totally agree - we need another difficulty level, but as also mentioned before - they need to fix the terrible early braking of the AI drivers.
Once that's fixed, just a slight improvement of their overall driving skill and we could have some pretty challenging races.

Using a less powerful car and/or worse tires means limiting yourself to cope with the AI driver's poor skill, rather than pushing yourself to be as fast and that's the key to whether a race is exciting or not.
 
I agree they, the A.I, definitely brake in places where it isn't necessary, or where a momentary lift would suffice.

For instance, the first corner at Le Sarthe, the right hander that gradually tightens and then leads into the slow left hander, is always as easy place to overtake the A.I at the start of the race.

They seem to slow right up and it's easy to run it round the outside of several cars and then you also have the inside line for the left hander making it easy to slide up the inside of any cars in the braking zone for that left turn.

Using a slow car is often the answer, but what do you do it you want to race the fastest cars?

There comes a point where you can't really drop down a class as you are going too slow on the straights no matter what you do.

If the A.I could stop braking so early and simply have a more human like ability to push the limit and take chances, even at the risk of running off or colliding with another car(s), it would be enough.
 
PDs idea of difficulty levels is to handicap your own car. Set power to minimum and weight to max with worse tires to get a challenge, or N200 car vs N1000 cars. It's a shame since I like to go fast myself and the the only way to get a challenge is to go slow.

Single player is only good to get some money and enjoy relaxed longer races without getting punted off. Exciting it is not.
 
I don’t think there really any way to get around the fact that GT League AI will always be about overtaking moving obstacles. It’s been that way since the first GT. Not likely to change after 20 years.

I realise there are those who much prefer offline racing. But since GTS Sport Mode, I just can’t go back to racing GT League AI. It feels like a blow up doll compared to real interaction with real people. Sure, it gets the job done, but it just exists to inflate your ego and doesn’t force you to improve as a driver because you can win at the drop of a hat. It’s easy and convenient. That’s about it.

If it’s a challenge you want, Sport Mode will give you that. I’ve never been more motivated to improve as a driver than with Sport Mode. I still suck (Low DR B, SR S). But I’ve forced myself to learn better lines, I’ve learned how to have a respectful skirmish, I’ve had the disappointment of being unfairly taken out, I’ve tasted the rare, but sweet taste of victory (only twice in 170 races). It’s an emotional rollercoaster, but I’ve learned to enjoy it, and I can’t really go back to racing AI. Unless I need a quick, convenient blow up doll just to get myself off with as little challenge as possible.
 
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senzr
If it’s a challenge you want, Sport Mode will give you that. I’ve never been more motivated to improve as a driver than with Sport Mode
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Funny, because all sport mode has motivated me to do is to not play it. Different people get different things from different aspects of the game - the online versus offline gaming debate has been done to death, but I think it's fair to say that some people just aren't interested in playing online and it would be good if PD could keep some of their attention on improving the offline experience. Tackling a couple of small issues with the AI driving style would go a long way towards doing that.
 
All I play is Sport Mode, but Sport Mode is irrelevant to the topic here.

Why not have a difficulty level that is comparable to 110 ‘ultimate’ AI in the F1 games? GTS feels like the F1 equivalent of 60 or 70 AI at best.
 
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MatskiMonk
the online versus offline gaming debate has been done to death, but I think it's fair to say that some people just aren't interested in playing online
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Fair point, and I don't mean to derail the OP's topic of AI difficulty. But I've played all the GTs since the first, and nothing much has changed in terms of AI over 2 decades. I don't expect any changes to PD's formula soon.

But then I have to ask...WHY do you want more difficulty? Is it because you want more of a challenge? Or do you want to improve your skills?

Let's say it's because you want more of a challenge. That means you've reached the point where the current AI difficulty is a breeze for your skill level, and you're not being tested. So you want your skills to be put to a tougher test, right? Let's say there was another harder difficulty level available. You'd have to improve to be able to master that next level...until you get better and plateau again. Rinse and repeat.

I play a couple of other competitive games, one of my other favourites is Street Fighter. I usually play the AI on max difficulty and see my win ratio improve to almost 100%. But then I get online and get my butt handed to me again. There's nothing AI can teach me beyond knowing the basics of game mechanics, and what tactics can be exploited to win. Because AI is following a script, and will become predictable once you've mastered the basic mechanics of the game. It will never try to read you, never try to outsmart you. My point is that playing AI cannot help you improve beyond mastering the basic mechanics. And I find that true of just about every competitive game I've played where there's an offline AI mode. It will become easy and predictable at some point.

In fighting games, there's a concept called "yomi", which is basically how many moves ahead you can predict your opponent's behaviour, like chess. The best players can anticipate what their opponents are going to do 4-5 moves ahead, and it's similar to racing. Coming out on top because you made the right assumptions about your opponent is extremely challenging, but satisfying. AI can never do that, because it's not even trying to. It's just following a set of scripts, and will never offer a challenge that even compares to what a real person might do.

I think I get why people who hate Sport Mode and stick to offline. Because Sport Mode is tough. It's frustrating. It makes you wanna break stuff when you get taken out unfairly. But guess what. That's racing. There can only be one winner in a field of 20. The odds are already against you. So if you ONLY get off on winning, that's tough luck. That's what AI is for. I've learned to enjoy the challenge of Sport Mode and that only happened when I stopped caring about winning and started focusing on IMPROVING. I can't play more than 1.5 hours a day every few days anyway due to life commitments. I'm starting to accept that I'll probably never reach DR A, but I have great battles in the midfield when it's fair and respectable (at least in SR S). I just focus on qualifying as well as I can, and trying to survive Turn 1. Everything else is beyond my control. And that's enough for me at this point.

I guess it really comes down to the WHY. Why do you play games? Is it to relax and feel like a pro, beating down on an opponent that's just following a program? If that's what I want, I play AI and let it massage my ego and make me think I'm awesome. (If you watch Westworld, you'd get the idea.) But AI will never provide a real challenge beyond the basics, and will hardly ever be exciting.

WHY do you play games? Is it to improve and enjoy the challenge and the PROCESS of improving (including the emotional ups and downs)? Then play real people. Because real people want to win as much as you do. And they're going to make it as hard as they can for you to win. But you MUST accept the emotional rollercoaster that comes along with it. Because only when you've experienced the frustration of having bad races will you truly savour the good ones.

You can't have it all.
 
The AI drives slowly in the corners because it needs the reserve grip for blocking maneuvers.
How many times have I gone wide into a corner with the AI defending the inside, anticipating that his momentum will take him wide on the exit, only to get my switchback blocked by the in-in-in line he takes?

The AI isn't programmed to race, it's programmed to be in the wrong place at the right time.
 
senzr
But then I have to ask...WHY do you want more difficulty? Is it because you want more of a challenge? Or do you want to improve your skills?
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Well, as I stated, to me it's not so much about achieving a more difficult race, it's about getting a more even experience, and then scaling that faster or slower to suit the player. Ideally you should always have to perform on or around your best to warrant a win, I see improving your skills as a byproduct of experience doing this.

senzr
I play a couple of other competitive games, one of my other favourites is Street Fighter. I usually play the AI on max difficulty and see my win ratio improve to almost 100%. But then I get online and get my butt handed to me again. There's nothing AI can teach me beyond knowing the basics of game mechanics, and what tactics can be exploited to win. Because AI is following a script, and will become predictable once you've mastered the basic mechanics of the game. It will never try to read you, never try to outsmart you. My point is that playing AI cannot help you improve beyond mastering the basic mechanics. And I find that true of just about every competitive game I've played where there's an offline AI mode. It will become easy and predictable at some point.

In fighting games, there's a concept called "yomi", which is basically how many moves ahead you can predict your opponent's behaviour, like chess. The best players can anticipate what their opponents are going to do 4-5 moves ahead, and it's similar to racing. Coming out on top because you made the right assumptions about your opponent is extremely challenging, but satisfying. AI can never do that, because it's not even trying to. It's just following a set of scripts, and will never offer a challenge that even compares to what a real person might do.
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I don't really play that many other games so I don't know how effective it is, but the concept of AI is that it will learn some of these skills - it doesn't need to be scripted since the AI is capable of logging your reaction to any given state, spotting patterns and acting accordingly. I'd imagine that fighting games already lend themselves to the concept of human vs human interaction anyway, as the principles and basic mechanics are somewhat more binary.

senzr
I think I get why people who hate Sport Mode and stick to offline. Because Sport Mode is tough. It's frustrating. It makes you wanna break stuff when you get taken out unfairly. But guess what. That's racing. There can only be one winner in a field of 20. The odds are already against you. So if you ONLY get off on winning, that's tough luck.
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I don't doubt this applies to some players, and I don't doubt there's casual players that reach this point with the offline mode also, but it's not really my case. I'm not a competitive person and I'm not driven by the desire to beat other people. With my limited experience in sport mode, I've found that my races have devolved into little more than doing a few laps in clear air and trying not to spin. I find myself in the no-mans land between the competitive guys at the front, and the guys at the back who crash out a lot. The races simply haven't been that exciting, and what adds insult to that, is the time taken to engage in sport mode, and not being able to race the combos I want to. Waiting 20 mins to get into a race with cars I'm not fussed about on a track I don't like, to not really have any kind of racing experience isn't my idea of fun - and that's before you add in the potential misbehaviour of other players. Sure, you might say that I need to improve to get up amongst those competitive guys, which is fair, but the prospect of doing so is nothing short of tedious - mostly because of the slow pace of the sport mode structure.

senzr
WHY do you play games? Is it to improve and enjoy the challenge and the PROCESS of improving (including the emotional ups and downs)? Then play real people. Because real people want to win as much as you do. And they're going to make it as hard as they can for you to win. But you MUST accept the emotional rollercoaster that comes along with it. Because only when you've experienced the frustration of having bad races will you truly savour the good ones.
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I don't necessarily equate winning with improving, hence I'm happy to time trial - I can enjoy improving without having to beat other people, hence I've enjoyed 1000's of hours of single player gaming over the course of Spectrum 128k, Commodore 64, Sega Mega drive, PC, Playstation, PS2 -3 -and 4.

I'm not saying sport mode is a bad thing, or that I don't see the attraction, but it's as I said before, people get different things out of the game for different reasons. If my life was as it was 15 years ago, I'd probably be all over online league racing as that at least has a social aspect - but these days, I'm simply not going to commit to a schedule of gaming - I want the game to fit around my life and that requires offline play.
 
For me, the A.I are a substitute, an alternative, to human players when I don't feel like hanging around for sport mode or a lobby to fill up.

As such, the faster the A.I, the more aggressive, more tactical, more "human" they seem to be, the more I can learn and the faster I can be; plus, I can practice and refine my racing etiquette.

I find professional simply too easy.

Even if I make a big mistake and go off, such is my lead I can still win.

Make it so I can't go off and if refines my driving and induces consistency.
 
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MatskiMonk
I'm simply not going to commit to a schedule of gaming - I want the game to fit around my life and that requires offline play.
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DodgySyrup
As such, the faster the A.I, the more aggressive, more tactical, more "human" they seem to be, the more I can learn and the faster I can be; plus, I can practice and refine my racing etiquette.
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You guys have fair points. Offline mode definitely has its place. But I wouldn't hold my breath for PD to make the AI anymore "human" soon. AI has never been a strong point for the GT series for the past 20 years. Not much to suggest anything's going to change.
 
If all you want is for them to be 2-3 seconds faster, seems like the common sense solution is to just make yourself slower by 2-3 seconds by handicapping your car...
 
Or pick a slower car.

We all want things that improve the game but it feels like this is it... the three levels plus endurance is all we will ever have.

There's a part of me that feels like the AI is pretty damn good and at a high level where its showcased... eg. the more crazy mission challenges and the W08 and F1500 races.

I feel like there's a gulf there between those crazy level AIs and what the OP is complaining about.
 
I think the a.i. Represent a great barometer of if I am ready to race online. If I can easily dispatch them cleanly on pro I feel good up To gr3
I tried ft1500 on Suzuka and got annhilated.
Their constant braking unnecessarily is good training for online to be ready for anything and learn that the easiest way to overtake often involves patience.
I will say Imo the only thing about AC on console that is better than sport is a.i. Excepting that you can still pass half the field before turn 1 in that game.
For me I’d always rather play any game video or otherwise vs a real person than computer because it’s more fun.
 
I did a couple races, one gr4 on Kyoto+myaby with bop and tyre x1 fuel x1, killed the ai easily.
Then I did gr3 bop and fuel tyres x1 on interlagos and was surprised the ai was very fast. They even defended! They were not super aggressive holding their defensive line you could push them out but still, it clearly showed the ai wanting to be on the inside line. I was doing 1:34 flat and the ai best times were 1:34.5. I’m pretty good on interlagos I was caught by surprise, maybe on certain tracks with certain groups like gr3 the ai is good. Try this combo out and see, and there might be more, I think they were pretty good on Red Bull ring too
 
I like both Modes. Arcade gives me that "I want it now!" race at specific tracks. Sport Mode gives me another outlet, to try the human emotion aspect of the game.

If the AI could resonrd and be adjusted like Project Cars AI, the offline experience would be perfect.
 
TonyJZX
There's a part of me that feels like the AI is pretty damn good and at a high level where its showcased... eg. the more crazy mission challenges and the W08 and F1500 races.
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Na it is just that human players often struggle more in the W08 and F1500 cars, as opposed to road cars or Gr. cars.

The AI for the W08 is shockingly bad. I mean, most of the AI cars can't even do Turn 1 at Nurburgring without spinning. It just feels like the AI is better because your pace (and mine too) is lower in those 2 vehicles.

In terms of the overall thread, having just a 'new difficulty' will not solve a single problem. Having better more thoughtful AI will, no matter of the AI Pace.
 
ARTAsean
If all you want is for them to be 2-3 seconds faster, seems like the common sense solution is to just make yourself slower by 2-3 seconds by handicapping your car...
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But what if you don't want to race the slower cars?

What if you want to race in the best cars against the best cars?

Sinply going into a slower car isn't always the answer.
 
TonyJZX
Or pick a slower car.

We all want things that improve the game but it feels like this is it... the three levels plus endurance is all we will ever have.

There's a part of me that feels like the AI is pretty damn good and at a high level where its showcased... eg. the more crazy mission challenges and the W08 and F1500 races.

I feel like there's a gulf there between those crazy level AIs and what the OP is complaining about.
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I don't feel like I am "complaining", rather I am asking if others feel the same as I do regarding the challenge the A.I offers on professional.

If that is complaining then every thread is complaining to some degree or another.

Now this, this comment, this is complaining...the original post, no so much.
 

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