New NASCAR Tune For Spa

11,207
United States
Adrian, Mich.
cargorat323
CargoRatt
Alright people, here is my first ever tune for a NASCAR car tuned in specific for use at Spa. This tune was done from scratch and not based from anyone elses tune. Since this is my first attempt at road course tuning, I would like some honest reviews, preferably from people that have experience and understanding of how these cars run. I'd like to see your lap times also. I am pretty satisfied with the setup and am quite happy with my lap times, I'd just like to see what others think. Thanks and feel free to flame away.

Kyle Bush 2011 Toyota Camry
Tires - Racing Soft
Chassis Reinforcement
892hp
Online tune
Track - Spa
No driving aids except ABS 1

AERO 50/70
LSD 20/7/7
RH -12/+10
SR 11.5/10.5
EXT 3/4
COMP 2/2
AR 1/7
CAMBER 1.5/0.5
TOE -0.15/-0.4
BRAKES 4/8
TRANSMISSION
1st 1.903
2nd 1.349
3rd 0.996
4th 0.857
FINAL 4.291
TOP SPEED 211mph with top speed at top at 208mph
So, there you have it. It may look a bit odd to you expert tuners out there but all I can say is it works for me. Any and all reviews welcome. Tips or criticisms also. Thanks.
 
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I was in a room the other night and some guys wanted to run Nascar on Monza. At first I thought about leaving, but after throwing a quick tune on and driving a couple of laps I found the car pretty responsive for it's weight with lots of grip, and fun to drive with the big V8 screaming in the surround sound. So I thought I'd give your tune a try as I think this is something I'll do once in a while when I host.

For what it's worth, I use a DFGT, and my driving style is controlled but at the limit. I don't like cars that are loose, don't set my own up that way and I like to set up my brakes to trail brake, and if it's possible, I'm usually braking into the turn, right down to the apex on some tracks/corners, although not with 100% brake force of course. My car has oil changed but is not broken in.

I took my own tune out on the track, made a couple of tweaks and then ran some hot laps. Tire wear was an issue as you would expect on a car this heavy, but with my own tune the tire wear was at least even and while it slowed me down slightly as the tires wore, it remained in control.

My best laps in my own tune, with oil change but not broken in were in the 2:09's. I was able to run 3 laps below about 2:10.3 and the times began to rise as tire wear kicked in, but the car was still balanced, just with less grip.

Tune Review

Relative to my own tune, overall I found the car very difficult to drive, especially after the first timed lap. Once tire wear kicked in, which was significantly higher, the car became almost undrivable for me. The car felt pretty sluggish in both turn in and in mid corner grip relative to my own tune, especially on the big sweeping corners and through Eau Rouge.

Because of the heavy rear bias in the brakes, I could only brake in a straight line, which to me alone, cost at least 1 second per lap. Whenever I was on the brakes as I began the corner, the rear end would snap out. So I experimented being in the right gear before turning, or alternately, braking a bit later but being one gear higher, neither of which is preferable for best lap times, but was necessary in this case to remain in control.

The LSD did not work for me either. If you downshifted while cornering even slightly, that would also kick the rear end out. I try to correct for that when tuning, because I like to vary the timing of my downshifts to induce under/oversteer, depending on my positioning in the corner and whether I'm carrying excess speed or a lack thereof. With your LSD and brake settings you pretty much have to be set up for the corner before you begin turning, which doesn't allow brake/drivetrain adjustments on the fly to correct for small imperfections in entry angle and speed. I also found that around the second lap, the inside rear tire started lighting up even in second gear, which is of course lost traction and time, and in a Nascar, a lot of tire wear.

The transmission settings were ok but I think 1st needs to be a little taller, and 2/3 need to be more evenly spaced. I see where you're going with 3/4 being so close but I don't think that's necessary. 3/4 needs to be a little closer than 2/3, just not that close. I had first tall enough to use in 4 different corners, and in conjunction with the LSD settings it did not cause the rear end to kick out, making it smooth cornering in every gear.

Tire wear was a significant issue. It was considerably higher than my own tune and after the first timed lap it really affected the handling of the car. The outside front tire started lighting up, then into the second lap, at some points 2 or 3 tires were lighting up. Corner grip fell significantly in the second lap to the point where I couldn't really drive it with any speed beyond the third timed lap. This tire wear also affected grip under accel too, as I mentioned above, as early as the second lap the inside rear tire was spinning under accel.

Perhaps this tune is better suited to a DS3 user, not sure, have never driven one in GT5 so I can't say what the differences would be.

Best lap with your tune: 2:11.5
Best second lap: 2:13.5

When I first looked at the tune, my first impression was that you raised the back end to get grip and then the rest of the tune is fighting that extra grip. Essentially you have created the problem with one element of the tune, then tried to correct it with the rest of the tune.

Instead, my suggestion would be to balance the tune to begin with, with springs/shocks/ARB's, that are relative to the weight distribution of the car, equal ride heights (i usually start with 0/0),equal brakes (i usually start with 5/5), basic toe and camber settings or even 0/0 and an LSD setting of something like 8/15/15. Then tune the suspension for balance, without changing the ride height, as a front/rear ride height differential is not usually necessary on cars that are tuned for balance. Once it's balanced, fine tune with LSD, toe, camber etc.

If you take a balanced suspension tune, adding camber should add grip overall. Toe should help a bit with turning and high speed stability, LSD should help stop the rear tires from spinning and perhaps aid with cornering. I don't use these elements to balance the car, just to aid the balance that already exists with the suspension set up, in most cases.

Good luck and I hope that helps...
 
I was in a room the other night and some guys wanted to run Nascar on Monza. At first I thought about leaving, but after throwing a quick tune on and driving a couple of laps I found the car pretty responsive for it's weight with lots of grip, and fun to drive with the big V8 screaming in the surround sound. So I thought I'd give your tune a try as I think this is something I'll do once in a while when I host.

For what it's worth, I use a DFGT, and my driving style is controlled but at the limit. I don't like cars that are loose, don't set my own up that way and I like to set up my brakes to trail brake, and if it's possible, I'm usually braking into the turn, right down to the apex on some tracks/corners, although not with 100% brake force of course. My car has oil changed but is not broken in.

I took my own tune out on the track, made a couple of tweaks and then ran some hot laps. Tire wear was an issue as you would expect on a car this heavy, but with my own tune the tire wear was at least even and while it slowed me down slightly as the tires wore, it remained in control.

My best laps in my own tune, with oil change but not broken in were in the 2:09's. I was able to run 3 laps below about 2:10.3 and the times began to rise as tire wear kicked in, but the car was still balanced, just with less grip.

Tune Review

Relative to my own tune, overall I found the car very difficult to drive, especially after the first timed lap. Once tire wear kicked in, which was significantly higher, the car became almost undrivable for me. The car felt pretty sluggish in both turn in and in mid corner grip relative to my own tune, especially on the big sweeping corners and through Eau Rouge.

Because of the heavy rear bias in the brakes, I could only brake in a straight line, which to me alone, cost at least 1 second per lap. Whenever I was on the brakes as I began the corner, the rear end would snap out. So I experimented being in the right gear before turning, or alternately, braking a bit later but being one gear higher, neither of which is preferable for best lap times, but was necessary in this case to remain in control.

The LSD did not work for me either. If you downshifted while cornering even slightly, that would also kick the rear end out. I try to correct for that when tuning, because I like to vary the timing of my downshifts to induce under/oversteer, depending on my positioning in the corner and whether I'm carrying excess speed or a lack thereof. With your LSD and brake settings you pretty much have to be set up for the corner before you begin turning, which doesn't allow brake/drivetrain adjustments on the fly to correct for small imperfections in entry angle and speed. I also found that around the second lap, the inside rear tire started lighting up even in second gear, which is of course lost traction and time, and in a Nascar, a lot of tire wear.

The transmission settings were ok but I think 1st needs to be a little taller, and 2/3 need to be more evenly spaced. I see where you're going with 3/4 being so close but I don't think that's necessary. 3/4 needs to be a little closer than 2/3, just not that close. I had first tall enough to use in 4 different corners, and in conjunction with the LSD settings it did not cause the rear end to kick out, making it smooth cornering in every gear.

Tire wear was a significant issue. It was considerably higher than my own tune and after the first timed lap it really affected the handling of the car. The outside front tire started lighting up, then into the second lap, at some points 2 or 3 tires were lighting up. Corner grip fell significantly in the second lap to the point where I couldn't really drive it with any speed beyond the third timed lap. This tire wear also affected grip under accel too, as I mentioned above, as early as the second lap the inside rear tire was spinning under accel.

Perhaps this tune is better suited to a DS3 user, not sure, have never driven one in GT5 so I can't say what the differences would be.

Best lap with your tune: 2:11.5
Best second lap: 2:13.5

When I first looked at the tune, my first impression was that you raised the back end to get grip and then the rest of the tune is fighting that extra grip. Essentially you have created the problem with one element of the tune, then tried to correct it with the rest of the tune.

Instead, my suggestion would be to balance the tune to begin with, with springs/shocks/ARB's, that are relative to the weight distribution of the car, equal ride heights (i usually start with 0/0),equal brakes (i usually start with 5/5), basic toe and camber settings or even 0/0 and an LSD setting of something like 8/15/15. Then tune the suspension for balance, without changing the ride height, as a front/rear ride height differential is not usually necessary on cars that are tuned for balance. Once it's balanced, fine tune with LSD, toe, camber etc.

If you take a balanced suspension tune, adding camber should add grip overall. Toe should help a bit with turning and high speed stability, LSD should help stop the rear tires from spinning and perhaps aid with cornering. I don't use these elements to balance the car, just to aid the balance that already exists with the suspension set up, in most cases.

Good luck and I hope that helps...

Thanks for the review. I forgot to say that I too use a wheel. It must be my driving style because I have not experienced any of the problems you have had. My fastest lap is also a 2:09.xxx with consistant 2:10's. I will take what you said tho and give it a try. Better yet, why don't you give me your tune and let me see the difference between mine and yours. That way maybe I can understand a little bit of how its supposed to feel as you say. Thanks again for the review.
 
Unfortunately I rarely publish my tunes and in this particular case, I wouldn't call it a finished product. I use my own tune for comparison purposes only as I have no other Nascar Road Tunes to work with. Maybe I should look that up as well.

Was tire wear on or off during testing?. I tested in my own lounge, online of course, with tire wear on, as I do for all tuning/testing. Because with tire wear off, I can see doing 2:09 with your tune, probably 2:07 with my own. Tire wear off is good for 1-2 seconds easily at Spa. But with tire wear on, even after just 2 laps, it was easily high enough to throw the car off balance. Because of the high weight of the vehicle it's going to have high tire wear, that can't be avoided.
 
I gave your tune a try over the weekend. I get the same lap times you do with your tune. But it didn't feel too great.

#1 - Feels too tight through Eau Rouge........adjusted AR to front
#2 - snap oversteer on corner exit..............lowered AR in back and adj. LSD
#3 - wheel lock under hi-speed braking at bus-stops......adj. LSD & rear brake bias
#4 - tire wear due to bottoming out............raised RH,Dampers & SR in front
#5 - too stiff on turn-ins...........................lowered rear RH & raised Dampers
#6 - throttle control throughout hi-speed turns not so great........adj. camber & toe angles

All these adjustments combined with my driving style of:

Brake early but not too much, carry speed on turn entry, Wide into, accelerate past apex in straightline out of turn, fast out.

Went from 2:11's with your tune to 2:08's with mine and almost nailed a 2:07 but I screwed up the last turn.

Try this:

LSD - 5/10/5
Brakes - 5/3
RH........-8/-2
SR......12.5/10.5
EXT.....4/5
COMP.....3/3
AR........4/5
Camber.....3.0/2.5
Toe....-.4/-.25



Note-can decrease camber & toe to gain tire life.

I would use this for a hot lap but for a longer race with a pitstop involved I would go with: Camber.....2.5/2.0 & toe....-.25/-.15
 
Unfortunately I rarely publish my tunes and in this particular case, I wouldn't call it a finished product. I use my own tune for comparison purposes only as I have no other Nascar Road Tunes to work with. Maybe I should look that up as well.

Was tire wear on or off during testing?. I tested in my own lounge, online of course, with tire wear on, as I do for all tuning/testing. Because with tire wear off, I can see doing 2:09 with your tune, probably 2:07 with my own. Tire wear off is good for 1-2 seconds easily at Spa. But with tire wear on, even after just 2 laps, it was easily high enough to throw the car off balance. Because of the high weight of the vehicle it's going to have high tire wear, that can't be avoided.


Exactly what I felt and was going to ask too about tire wear ON/Off
 
Tire wear was on, I'm not stupid. Anyway Crazy, I'll give your advice a try. My times don't start falling off till like lap 3 which I knew I was gonna have to work on is the tire wear. Maybe I should just stick to turning left because, judging from the feedback so far, Im too stupid to figure this road course tuning out. Ah well.
 
Tire wear was on, I'm not stupid. Anyway Crazy, I'll give your advice a try. My times don't start falling off till like lap 3 which I knew I was gonna have to work on is the tire wear. Maybe I should just stick to turning left because, judging from the feedback so far, Im too stupid to figure this road course tuning out. Ah well.

Some unsolicited advice KB take it for what it's worth. Both Ken and I took up our own personal time to test out this tune for you because you asked for advice and feedback and we believed you were sincere and wanting to learn. I've seen many single tunes posted in the Tuning Forum with zero feedback and many more that got very limited feedback as in "Yeah it's great" or , "it sucks".

When people take up their own valuable time to give you constructive feedback, which I believe it was, and in Ken's case he even gave you a full tune, the last thing we want to hear is, "I'm not stupid" in response to a legitimate question and "I'm too stupid to figure this out" after a couple of critical reviews. It's very discouraging to hear that and if it continued, you wouldn't find me reviewing any of your tunes again, can't speak for Ken. And that's not what I want, I enjoy lending a hand, but I won't "fight windmills" in the words of Don Quixote.

We were all in the same boat at once man. Don't know of anyone who takes one look at the game and out of the gate he's Ross Brawn. I struggled the first couple of months tuning anything that wasn't great out of the box, including Nascar Oval Tuning. I asked about the tire wear on/off because since 2.01 it's now off instead of on as default, and I and a number of others have got caught by that more than once and it would explain some things that didn't make sense to me.

You've got some invaluable feedback, more than most. Use it, learn from it and you'll be better for it. I know it's not easy, but try to remain positive even in the face of negative reviews and it'll encourage others to give feedback as well. If you stick at it, you'll get the hang of it quickly.
 
Tire wear was on, I'm not stupid. Anyway Crazy, I'll give your advice a try. My times don't start falling off till like lap 3 which I knew I was gonna have to work on is the tire wear. Maybe I should just stick to turning left because, judging from the feedback so far, Im too stupid to figure this road course tuning out. Ah well.

Your not stupid and your lap time isn't bad for your first try. I am only starting to get competitive at road courses and it has taken me 12months now LOL to get where I'm at with road tunes. Spa is a big course so there is more room for lap times to be off. But then since I'm good at ovals / full throttle I tend to do better at these types of tracks such as Spa, HSR, LeMans, Monza. And you will too. The smaller technical road courses I do in general with way-to-fast drivers are an average of 2 seconds faster than me per a minute. So after 2 minutes 4 seconds off isn't the end of the world and you know there is room for improvement. But now take those fast guys I'm talking about here and stay on their a$$ on the straights and you will keep up, just don't lose your time in the corners/turns/chicanes/bus stops. And remember these guys will forget to tune up their transmissions (which you know allows you to draft past them). Like you said before not always the fastes lap times win the race. I would turn on the Tire Indicator if I were you and see where the car bottoms out and make slight adjustments towards those particular corners. Now you make end up super tuning your car to the point where it makes awesome turns but a few laps into it the car becomes super loose. This is not good in a longer race where tire wear will come into effect. So a stiffer setup might end up being the way to go. Example the guy who runs 2:07 the first few laps may be running 2:17 or worse on the following few due to the stipulations I outlined above. So in theory your 2:11s or whatever may out-weigh the faster driver. Practice corner entry, consistancy and work on the setup for extended tires. I think you will have no problem at road tunes in no time.
 
Some unsolicited advice KB take it for what it's worth. Both Ken and I took up our own personal time to test out this tune for you because you asked for advice and feedback and we believed you were sincere and wanting to learn. I've seen many single tunes posted in the Tuning Forum with zero feedback and many more that got very limited feedback as in "Yeah it's great" or , "it sucks".

When people take up their own valuable time to give you constructive feedback, which I believe it was, and in Ken's case he even gave you a full tune, the last thing we want to hear is, "I'm not stupid" in response to a legitimate question and "I'm too stupid to figure this out" after a couple of critical reviews. It's very discouraging to hear that and if it continued, you wouldn't find me reviewing any of your tunes again, can't speak for Ken. And that's not what I want, I enjoy lending a hand, but I won't "fight windmills" in the words of Don Quixote.

We were all in the same boat at once man. Don't know of anyone who takes one look at the game and out of the gate he's Ross Brawn. I struggled the first couple of months tuning anything that wasn't great out of the box, including Nascar Oval Tuning. I asked about the tire wear on/off because since 2.01 it's now off instead of on as default, and I and a number of others have got caught by that more than once and it would explain some things that didn't make sense to me.

You've got some invaluable feedback, more than most. Use it, learn from it and you'll be better for it. I know it's not easy, but try to remain positive even in the face of negative reviews and it'll encourage others to give feedback as well. If you stick at it, you'll get the hang of it quickly.

Alright, first off I'm not some 5 year old and I don't need you to talk down to me like your tone insists. I appreciate your feedback which I did indeed ask for. I wasn't trying to disrespect you in any way. I was only getting down on myself because I am so competitive and I do want to learn this whole road course tuning thing. Ken knows me pretty well so he knows how I am. Him and I had our own falling out in the beginning, but as I am sure he will tell you, once you get to know me, you will see that I never try to disrespect anyone. My words may be harsh or even rude at times, but its never meant to be taken personally. So, once more, I appreciate your detailed feedback, but please don't talk to me like I'm 5. My 'dumb' comments were just a figure of speech. I don't need a sermon on how to act. Thanks.
 
Your not stupid and your lap time isn't bad for your first try. I am only starting to get competitive at road courses and it has taken me 12months now LOL to get where I'm at with road tunes. Spa is a big course so there is more room for lap times to be off. But then since I'm good at ovals / full throttle I tend to do better at these types of tracks such as Spa, HSR, LeMans, Monza. And you will too. The smaller technical road courses I do in general with way-to-fast drivers are an average of 2 seconds faster than me per a minute. So after 2 minutes 4 seconds off isn't the end of the world and you know there is room for improvement. But now take those fast guys I'm talking about here and stay on their a$$ on the straights and you will keep up, just don't lose your time in the corners/turns/chicanes/bus stops. And remember these guys will forget to tune up their transmissions (which you know allows you to draft past them). Like you said before not always the fastes lap times win the race. I would turn on the Tire Indicator if I were you and see where the car bottoms out and make slight adjustments towards those particular corners. Now you make end up super tuning your car to the point where it makes awesome turns but a few laps into it the car becomes super loose. This is not good in a longer race where tire wear will come into effect. So a stiffer setup might end up being the way to go. Example the guy who runs 2:07 the first few laps may be running 2:17 or worse on the following few due to the stipulations I outlined above. So in theory your 2:11s or whatever may out-weigh the faster driver. Practice corner entry, consistancy and work on the setup for extended tires. I think you will have no problem at road tunes in no time.

Thanks for the vote of confidence bro, appreciate it. I was thinking maybe sometime when your not too busy, maybe we could meet in my lounge for a few practice laps and you could help me out with a few things. (cornering, braking, etc) I seem to learn better seeing rather than reading. Thanks again for taking the time to help me out. I appreciate bro.
 
Alright, first off I'm not some 5 year old and I don't need you to talk down to me like your tone insists. I appreciate your feedback which I did indeed ask for. I wasn't trying to disrespect you in any way. I was only getting down on myself because I am so competitive and I do want to learn this whole road course tuning thing. Ken knows me pretty well so he knows how I am. Him and I had our own falling out in the beginning, but as I am sure he will tell you, once you get to know me, you will see that I never try to disrespect anyone. My words may be harsh or even rude at times, but its never meant to be taken personally. So, once more, I appreciate your detailed feedback, but please don't talk to me like I'm 5. My 'dumb' comments were just a figure of speech. I don't need a sermon on how to act. Thanks.

Maybe you should take some of your own advice, not take what I said personally as it appears you have, and maybe you'll see it in a different light.

Good luck.
 
For what it's worth, I tried KB18FAN's initial setup, buying a new 2011 Target Chevy that has had the oil changed but the engine not broken in yet.

So my car was down almost 70 HP, yet I picked up 9 seconds off of my admittedly pathetic best time yesterday (the first day I had picked up the Spa DLC). To me, the setup felt quite stable and turned quite well, although from reading the previous reviews, my driving style is quite different from theirs. I typically finish all my braking before the corner and let the car glide and roll through the corner, and hardly ever use first gear, although in this instant I found first gear to be quite useful. I also use a DS3, so that might play into the difference as well. I could be learning the track a bit more as well, although I don't think that accounts for a nine second jump in lap time.

I have to admit, I'm really a total tuning n00b. I try to take information in, but a lot of times it goes in one ear and out the other and I can't retain it. If I keep at it, I might be able to, but retaining information isn't one of my strong suits.
 
It is a good tune, I'm just not too comfortable with it n was able to find more time with a few adjustments. But like I was saying, brake earlier n carry speed through the turn. And with my driving style I can never go down to first gear around a turn in a NASCAR but that just might be only me
 
It is a good tune, I'm just not too comfortable with it n was able to find more time with a few adjustments. But like I was saying, brake earlier n carry speed through the turn. And with my driving style I can never go down to first gear around a turn in a NASCAR but that just might be only me

I can hardly ever use it, although it was useful here.
 
For what it's worth, I tried KB18FAN's initial setup, buying a new 2011 Target Chevy that has had the oil changed but the engine not broken in yet.

So my car was down almost 70 HP, yet I picked up 9 seconds off of my admittedly pathetic best time yesterday (the first day I had picked up the Spa DLC). To me, the setup felt quite stable and turned quite well, although from reading the previous reviews, my driving style is quite different from theirs. I typically finish all my braking before the corner and let the car glide and roll through the corner, and hardly ever use first gear, although in this instant I found first gear to be quite useful. I also use a DS3, so that might play into the difference as well. I could be learning the track a bit more as well, although I don't think that accounts for a nine second jump in lap time.

I have to admit, I'm really a total tuning n00b. I try to take information in, but a lot of times it goes in one ear and out the other and I can't retain it. If I keep at it, I might be able to, but retaining information isn't one of my strong suits.

This is also my driving style, brake early, roll to apex, then on gas as soon as possible. I'm glad this tune has helped you, however, there are far more experienced tuners out there that could help you out more. Like I said before, this is my first attempt at road course tuning so its more or less an experiment so just take it for what it is but if it helps you out, then cool. I am a Daytona guy at heart, so if you need help running there, I can help you. That track has been my playground since day one of this game. Good times and clean lines!!
 
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