New Online Racing Penalties Leave Gran Turismo’s Top Drivers Fuming

[OutlawQuadrnt]

I'm not against the concept of these post-race penalties but the execution is lacking. The fact that we're learning about all these penalties via the drivers being penalized on social media is not a good look in terms of transparency. Also, the severe penalties imposed compared to the apparent infringements don’t make sense. This almost feels as though these measures are an ad hoc reaction.

Finally, while drivers are responsible for their actions on track, the format for the official championships this year was just asking for trouble. Even less spots available and combinations that are far too short and lacking variables to spread out a rather compressed field means that it's the most intense competition we have ever had.

If they did that every single person in my Prius race on Sunday would've been DQ'd.

Well, that is the precedent set. I mean, Prius top split was also a wreckfest.

 

[Force-Feedback]

Thanks for the thread. Cheers.

 

[SPL170db]

I can't see that working as things are at the moment, if the game can't work out who is at fault to punish them properly with penalties it's not going to know which car to give the damage too so the victim probably gets twice the pain. A lot of the contact people are being excluded for this season isn't heavy enough to cause any damage either.

No doubt....it would of course rely on the underlying penalty system to be fixed and working properly before differential application of damage would work in tandem.

 

[sonnyboychris]

E-Sports had a short-lived boom but it’s back to catering for a niche of a niche.

This isn't an E-Sports problem. The problem is PD's lack of development and outright negligence of the penalty system over 6+ years.

Online gaming has been around since the 1970's, it's been in the console realm since the late 90's... It's not going anywhere .

No doubt....it would of course rely on the underlying penalty system to be fixed and working properly before differential application of damage would work in tandem.

I wish someone would just ask them (PD) outright what the problem is. Why has it gone unchanged and in some ways gone backwards.

Heck, they have tools available to them and don't implement them. Turn on heavy damage for daily races for goodness sake.

 

[Yard_Sale]

Finally, while drivers are responsible for their actions on track, the format for the official championships this year was just asking for trouble. Even less spots available and combinations that are far too short and lacking variables to spread out a rather compressed field means that it's the most intense competition we have ever had.

Whole-heartedly agree. PD really shot themselves in the foot with this season. There were SO MANY good exhibition season rounds, that all they had to do was to copy-paste the greatest hits, and most of us would have been satisfied. These daily C official season races are just ridiculous. While I’ll always play Gran Turismo in some capacity, once the 5090 cards drop later this year, I’m building a PC and going to Iracing for my competition fix

 

[sonnyboychris]

While I’ll always play Gran Turismo in some capacity, once the 5090 cards drop later this year, I’m building a PC and going to Iracing for my competition fix

If you don't mind, please share your build. I'm looking to get into PC gaming side of things for the first time. I might as well own a game that actually uses FFB .

 

[tornador]

This further intensifies the debate around complaints that Sport Mode events favor quicker drivers. Why disadvantage those with more race experience? Not necessarily better racecraft, as GT2 and GT3 have equally compelling races as GT1. In every class, some deliberately ruin others' races. Seems like a path for less skilled drivers to spoil others' final standings.

 

[Yard_Sale]

If you don't mind, please share your build. I'm looking to get into PC gaming side of things for the first time. I might as well own a game that actually uses FFB .

😂

I have no clue how to do this stuff. One of the guys my wife works with is going to do it for me. I’ll just be drinking beer next to him while he does it

 

[RB_Free]

This is Motorsport otherwise they can organize 20 laps "races" in time trial mode.

By now you are used to seeing races where they penalize everything but once upon a time in real TURISMO races there were contacts, pushes etc.

I'm not saying you have to divebomb every corner or throw people out but the contacts have always been there, it's one thing to push someone out, it's another to come alongside or take up space.

Ayrton Senna: “If you no longer go for a gap that exists, you're no longer a racing driver.”

 

[Fezzik]

You think they haven’t already cut any focus on the esports?!

Season length is shorter every time. Less people allowed to qualify for live finals. A competition run using Gr3 cars not having a new Gr3 car in living memory.

This is getting a bit offtopic, not really about the penalty system.

 

[appu]

The collisions in this video highlight the substandard collision physics in GT7. Cars in GT7 collide like two ping-pong balls hitting each other. In my opinion, this kind of collision physics disproportionately punishes the victim, as the victim gets pushed away farther than in real-life scenarios, and the aggressor has their momentum significantly reduced, which is what they want.

Wreckfest is a good example of a simcade that has sensible collision physics, which reduces the impact on the victim and minimizes the need for stewarding. I don't know much about coding games, but I feel that it should not be too difficult to code better collision physics, considering Wreckfest has achieved it and runs smoothly on PlayStation (supporting 16 multiplayer players on PS4 and 24 multiplayer players on PS5, if I remember correctly).

 

[Fezzik]

If they did extend these penalties to all races the fake Famine would be getting some DQs - they were attacking poor Rory at Deep Forest

 

[sonnyboychris]

The collisions in this video highlight the substandard collision physics in GT7. Cars in GT7 collide like two ping-pong balls hitting each other. In my opinion, this kind of collision physics disproportionately punishes the victim, as the victim gets pushed away farther than in real-life scenarios, and the aggressor has their momentum significantly reduced, which is what they want.

Wreckfest is a good example of a simcade that has sensible collision physics, which reduces the impact on the victim and minimizes the need for stewarding. I don't know much about coding games, but I feel that it should not be too difficult to code better collision physics, considering Wreckfest has achieved it and runs smoothly on PlayStation (supporting 16 multiplayer players on PS4 and 24 multiplayer players on PS5, if I remember correctly).

This may come as a shock but I'm inclined to give PD the benefit of doubt here and trust that they're utilizing the brunt of what the PS4 can dish out.

As I've mentioned before, we've seen in the past the Sony mandate to PD that the PS4/PS4 Pro versions have to be largely identical. That's the reason why the PSVR1 version of Sport was gimped on the Pro. Plus we've already seen the game scaled back visually to keep a consistent framerate.

I'd hope they'd have a more realistic collision model if GT7 was PS5 exclusive.

If they did extend these penalties to all races the fake Famine would be getting some DQs - they were attacking poor Rory at Deep Forest

What I love most is that PD rewards them by allowing them to maintain control of their vehicles. They're typically running every assist possible and carry on like nothing happened. No penalty, no damage, nothing.

 

[Nebuc72]

What I love most is that PD rewards them by allowing them to maintain control of their vehicles. They're typically running every assist possible and carry on like nothing happened. No penalty, no damage, nothing.

It's the nature of the dodgy contact physics. All your momentum gets shot into the other car and you stop pretty much dead like you've hit a brick wall.
It functions awful, it makes slower contacts turn into ping pong battles with both cars repeatedly bouncing off eachother and makes large punts purely punish the victim.

 

[Talon16]

Ayrton Senna: “If you no longer go for a gap that exists, you're no longer a racing driver.”

"If you no longer go for a gap that doesn't exist, you're no longer a sim racing driver."

If they did extend these penalties to all races the fake Famine would be getting some DQs - they were attacking poor Rory at Deep Forest

These videos/shorts irk me. The rammers do this for the attention. Apparently their parents didn't love them enough as kids or something. But they specifically seek out (and stream snipe) streamers just for the extra attention... and most streamers give the rammers exactly that. This only encourages more of the same. But you gotta get those clicks, amirite?

It's the nature of the dodgy contact physics. All your momentum gets shot into the other car and you stop pretty much dead like you've hit a brick wall.
It functions awful, it makes slower contacts turn into ping pong battles with both cars repeatedly bouncing off eachother and makes large punts purely punish the victim.

GT7 physics are like Newton's cradle, which is ridiculously unrealistic. Real cars are design to absorb energy from contact (mostly to protect the driver), albeit heavy hits or light touches... not just transfer that energy right into the next body/car. And, often it's that middle car that gets the pen because they got hit in the rear which forces them into the car in front and off the track or whatever. Insult to injury.

 

[GOTMAXPOWER]

If they did extend these penalties to all races the fake Famine would be getting some DQs - they were attacking poor Rory at Deep Forest

Fake Famine makes a effort to go for the highest profile player in a race, I'm not sure on his exact algorithm but I suspect he takes into consideration YouTube followers, eSports record, DR and qualifying time. To be targeted is actually a compliment of the highest order 👍

 

[mad4pancakes]

I haven't been playing much GT lately, I started on iRacing at the beginning of the year and have been playing that almost exclusively. At first I was extremely annoyed by the no-fault penalty system that they have. If you're not aware how it works, you get 1x for off track, 2x for light contact with another car or a barrier, and 4x for heavy contact with another car. Most races disqualify you at 17x and typically anything more than 6x will negatively affect your SR depending where you are on the scale and how many laps you did.

Initially most players probably feel what I felt when I started - why should my SR get punished for someone else hitting me and taking me out of the race? As I have progressed through the ranks there I learned something very important. It takes 2 to make contact. Avoiding contact is as much of a skill as avoiding hitting other players. It comes down to awareness, avoiding putting yourself in a spot where you are likely to create contact, and racing respectfully.

As an example, I was racing MX5s on the Nurburgring last night and there was a guy behind me at one point riding my bumper so hard trying to pass in ridiculous spots even though we were in traffic behind the people in front of us. I just let him through, because even though I could have defended against him I took one look at his SR and knew that he was going to kill us both eventually. It didn't take long for him to try a crazy move on next guy and he did in fact end up in the wall (along with the guy in front as well sadly) less than half a lap later.

Gran Turismo would greatly benefit from a no-fault system. I know people would not like it at first, but PD has proven that trying to determine fault for a penalty is too hard for them to do well. This actually seems like a great problem to apply machine learning to, but until they drastically increase resources spent on it the only real option is to encourage more aware driving overall through a uniform system.

 

[LammersXJR]

This isn't an E-Sports problem. The problem is PD's lack of development and outright negligence of the penalty system over 6+ years.

Online gaming has been around since the 1970's, it's been in the console realm since the late 90's... It's not going anywhere .

Specific complaints about penalty systems (in all games) is largely because there’s a lack of respect and consequence in virtual racing. It’s a win at all costs mentality which leads to poor standards & habits.

Fun online racing racing & events are very different to the ultra serious world of E-Sports. The scene as a whole, and particularly GTWS, is built on sand. I don’t for one minute think these events are giving PD a financial return or delivering a significant amount of new game sales.

I’m heavily into real world motor racing and E-Sports has failed to breakthrough into the mainstream apart from that short lived boom. This despite many OEM’s & teams having their own virtual teams.

I’m not the least bit surprised to hear some GTWS related staff have been made redundant. I don’t see GTWS live events continuing without major structural changes to make them financially viable.

 

[Astro_BS-AS]

Am I the only one B - S on this thread? Those kind of moves are the awful reality of us peasants who try to race clean and get destroyed time after time.

I really don´t get why PD can´t ghost any car which is clearly unable to get the turn or goes straight to other player´s car. At the engine (game engine) level it´s not hard to calculate that.

Even so... you got a "Magnussen" on F1 and it is what it is.... And you can see any real gt race and it´s carnage as well... I don´t get it.

 

[BallPtPenTheif]

Nothing about PDs approach seems sustainable let alone scalable. I feel like this retcon penalty thing was reactively done as a shock and awe tactic to get the top split drivers to stop driving around the penalty system. At this point they all know how to create little bumps without accruing penalties and the overall quality of the driving suffers for it.

I wouldn't be surprised if someone from Toyota was looking at some of the races and just lost their mind over how bad the driving was.

 

[MOPARbarrett5]

This might be an unpopular opinion but I don't think GT7 is in a state right now to continue the GTWS. This year is probably too late to stop but I honestly think PD needs to post that future events are canceled until farther notice due to the exploits in the penalty system, ghosting system and contact physics system. If PD were to openly admit that GT7 isn't currently meeting the standards for high quality online racing and promise to address the many exploits (whether they eventually succeed at fixing them or not is a different topic) instead of punishing people after the fact with no warning then I would be cautiously optimistic about the future of the online championships.
Right now though I probably have a lower opinion on Sport Mode as a whole than ever, including GT Sport. Given the hundreds of hours I've had of videos complaining about Sport Mode over the years it's honestly hard for me to put into words how I feel right now and I genuinely never thought that day would come.
I think it would be best for there to be a hiatus for competitive online events but given that there has been some form of Gran Turismo online competition almost every year since 2008, I understand if that might not go well.

 

[tankuroded]

If they did extend these penalties to all races the fake Famine would be getting some DQs - they were attacking poor Rory at Deep Forest

Jose Brea also had a clash with them:

Spoiler: Language warning

 

[Famine]

Fake Famine makes a effort to go for the highest profile player in a race, I'm not sure on his exact algorithm but I suspect he takes into consideration YouTube followers, eSports record, DR and qualifying time. To be targeted is actually a compliment of the highest order 👍

I loved the bit where you typed "Oh boy, fake Famine is here", and Rory went "Who's... I don't know who that is?"...

 

[Keef]

Really? I'm not seeing it.

He's the car in third. He hangs back while the front two get into it...

View attachment 1355413

... and cuts back inside on the second apex:

View attachment 1355414

This is the moment of impact, with the slowed car (due to being biffed off-line, and returning while trying to take the racing line on borderline bald tyres) mid-track due to the car that biffed them still partially overlapping on the outside:

View attachment 1355415

I understand a "divebomb" to be a move in which someone sends one down the inside on the brakes in full knowledge that there's not going to be room for both cars to make the corner unless the one on the outside cedes the turn-in.

There's only one car that could apply to in the video, and it's not Bertani's:

View attachment 1355419

You’re right, divebomb isn’t the right word because he didn’t actually go to the inside of the white car.

Instead, he just straight up ran into the back of the white car. At no point was he ever in a position to pass the white car, and was completely unprepared for the white car to be going extra slow due to both being offline and staying tight to defend the left apex. He didn’t plan for that and never adjusted by slowing to avoid hitting the white car.

 

[sonnyboychris]

Specific complaints about penalty systems (in all games) is largely because there’s a lack of respect and consequence in virtual racing. It’s a win at all costs mentality which leads to poor standards & habits.

Fun online racing racing & events are very different to the ultra serious world of E-Sports. The scene as a whole, and particularly GTWS, is built on sand. I don’t for one minute think these events are giving PD a financial return or delivering a significant amount of new game sales.

I’m heavily into real world motor racing and E-Sports has failed to breakthrough into the mainstream apart from that short lived boom. This despite many OEM’s & teams having their own virtual teams.

I’m not the least bit surprised to hear some GTWS related staff have been made redundant. I don’t see GTWS live events continuing without major structural changes to make them financially viable.

I agree that E-Sports might not be a thing for much longer. If you don't mind me asking, what are you racing IRL?

 

[Johnny Caisse]

I dunno but I think E-Sports championships are sometimes making gaming become overly serious.

Edit: Please do note that it is just my 2c.

 

[tankuroded]

Gran Turismo would greatly benefit from a no-fault system. I know people would not like it at first, but PD has proven that trying to determine fault for a penalty is too hard for them to do well. This actually seems like a great problem to apply machine learning to, but until they drastically increase resources spent on it the only real option is to encourage more aware driving overall through a uniform system.

No, the consensus is they needing a reporting/protesting system. Except what happened now is seemingly the possible consequence of having something like that, without actually having that (at least directly in-game).

I agree that E-Sports might not be a thing for much longer.

There are definitely signs of the esports bubble bursting now. This was also a concern prior to Rennsport's release.

I dunno but I think E-Sports championships are sometimes making gaming become overly serious.

Edit: Please do note that it is just my 2c.

As mentioned in a previous thread, both shooters and fighters also get affected with that.

 

[Meythia]

PS4 can dish out.

If thats really the case, then point being: at some time you have to abandon the old hardware to make the game you want, not the game the shareholders want.
Option b) now creates quite the large ruckus to its reputation.

Anyway, who already decided to pre-order GT8?

 

[SluggerDandy]

Am I the only one B - S on this thread? Those kind of moves are the awful reality of us peasants who try to race clean and get destroyed time after time.

I really don´t get why PD can´t ghost any car which is clearly unable to get the turn or goes straight to other player´s car. At the engine (game engine) level it´s not hard to calculate that.

Even so... you got a "Magnussen" on F1 and it is what it is.... And you can see any real gt race and it´s carnage as well... I don´t get it.

Thanks. It's nearly impossible to race on C-B DR and even S SR if you're P5 to P15 at the start of a race. Only the last guy on the grid and the 3 or 4 guys ahead could do something.
And it's in the case of a track which don't have a sharp corner for the first turn.
ALL the combos with Laguna Seca, Monza, Deep Forest reverse and even the Nurb GP are unplayable right now. And when you don't have enough time to play (because of work, family, etc...) the result is 20 minutes wasted.

 

[Doughboy247]

I'm obviously looking at a ban.
During the Prius race, someone got along side me, and started to gently BASH into the side of my car, and carried on as they edged slightly ahead, which resulted in a, self inflicted, pit maneuver.
Until reading this article, I just saw this as a karmic penalty for them.🤣