Nissan cuts 9,000 jobs as its vehicles fail to sell

[MIE1992]

What's wrong with a car that looks feminine? Couldn't one say something similar about various Porsches and Mazdas? Otherwise, I agree with the other points regarding the new Prelude.

 

[Keef]

Kirk Kreifels made a video about the Honda-Nissan merger and how important it is to Honda. Namely, Mitsubishi's good PHEV tech. Honda corporate basically wants to skip over PHEVs and go straight to BEVs which most of the industry has decided is a bad idea and I have to assume Honda will also decide this. But when they do decide that, they will already be behind the curve on PHEVs. That's where Mitsu comes in, because Mitsu is ahead of that curve. It's one thing they're actually getting right.



However, in that video he also mentions something that most of us probably agree on - a Honda that doesn't make ICE engines isn't Honda at all. Kirk mentions that Honda motorcycles is still a money maker, and we can assume that ICE engines are going to live much longer in motorcycles than in cars. Then I stumbled upon this video which sort of proves all those points.



Honda is ingenuis at ICE engines. They should definitely not stop.

 

[Ryan81]

Is this a result of pushing all electric cars too soon? Nissan is very inconsistent. Sometimes, they produce great cars but of late, I haven't been impressed with their lineup although the new Z is quite nice but that's probably very niche.

 

[TexRex]

Is this a result of pushing all electric cars too soon?

Two. Two EVs. One compact sedan (Leaf), one crossover (Ariya). That's it.

 

[McLaren]

The main reason the enthusiast product, the previous-gen Si Coupe, wasn't selling is because of Honda's refusal to improve the platform. The current-gen Si Sedan still has a 200hp engine although for the past couple generations its been in turbo guise. Mazda has improved the Miata, Toyota has improved the 86, Honda has refused, and after literal decades of selling a Civic Si with the exact same output which eventually fell behind similar entry-level enthusiast cars, including from Hyundai. Hyundai and Toyota have stolen all of Honda's steam when it comes to enthusiast products because Honda has refused to take any risk.

That's because the Si remains nothing more than a fully-optioned, sporty trim for the Civic marketed only to us. It's a $30,000 car w/ basically zero options beyond accessories, same as it was one when I had one in 2008. The Miata starts at $30,000 but can rise right up to $40,000. The GR86 starts at $30,000 but that climbs to to $32,000 if you put a sport package on it. If you want extra trimmings, it's $32,500, but it climbs to just under $36,000+ fully loaded. The Miata really isn't a competitor in the Si's market to begin with, and the last review I saw of a GR86 against a Si had it coming dead last in a 5-way battle with it, the Si, the Elantra N, the Golf GTI, & the WRX as a sub-$35,000 comparison. The Si placed 2nd behind the Elantra N, same result when C&D put the Si, N, & Jetta GLI against each other.

So, really, the only company that's managing to best Honda's Si appears to be Hyundai who seem to be doing a phenomonal job against every one in every market they head into, esp. with the N/N-Line models. They're taking the Genesis name to the Hypercar class in Endurance racing which is an incredible feat. Toyota though, I don't think they've stolen anyone's steam. They build solid cars for enthusiasts, but they do the same thing you've mentioned of Honda; they're not really taking any risks, either.

 

[Keef]

They build solid cars for enthusiasts, but they do the same thing you've mentioned of Honda; they're not really taking any risks, either.

Huge risks, perhaps not, at least not yet. The 86 and Supra were both platform shares. But in my opinion the GR Corolla and Yaris are pretty ridiculous products, the Yaris in particular since it required an entirely new body structure that didn't exist beforehand. The engine for those cars is unqiue as well, at least currently. Toyota tested the waters in preparation for bigger risks which we're going to see with the in-house Supra and other rwd products they're currently testing (maybe alongside Mazda but not confirmed), the next-gen 86, and likely another sports car slotting below an upgraded 86. While Hyundai has gone whole-hog into N, they're still not bespoke sports cars unlike Toyota which may soon have three on offer, as well as a nonsense rally car homologation which hasn't been done since Subaru and Mitsubishi mattered.

Given the history of Type R I'd say that car is one of the safest bets Honda could make. There isn't even a hint of risk coming from them. In a small sports car market where Toyota and Mazda obviously want to compete and compete well, there are no rumors of a new Honda S-series car.

 

[MIE1992]

In a small sports car market where Toyota and Mazda obviously want to compete and compete well, there are no rumors of a new Honda S-series car.

I sort of wonder what it'd be called? It made sense for the S2000 to be named after the new millennium, while the S660 is named for its displacement. Maybe they could use a larger engine and then use the displacement of said engine for the name. So maybe we could get a Honda S2500, or a Honda S200 if it ends up having 200 HP. Could even be turbocharged, and/or a HEV or even a PHEV, as long as it's not a BEV and/or CVT. It'd also have to be a convertible, though I could see it being AWD instead of RWD, sort of like how the SLS-AMG and AMG GT were RWD and then the GT63 is AWD. Eventually, they could even have a S[whatever] Type R model. Announcing something like that would certainly get attention!

 

[Keef]

I sort of wonder what it'd be called? It made sense for the S2000 to be named after the new millennium, while the S660 is named for its displacement. Maybe they could use a larger engine and then use the displacement of said engine for the name. So maybe we could get a Honda S2500, or a Honda S200 if it ends up having 200 HP. Could even be turbocharged, and/or a HEV or even a PHEV, as long as it's not a BEV and/or CVT. It'd also have to be a convertible, though I could see it being AWD instead of RWD, sort of like how the SLS-AMG and AMG GT were RWD and then the GT63 is AWD. Eventually, they could even have a S[whatever] Type R model. Announcing something like that would certainly get attention!

The S2000 was also initially named for its displacement, they just didn't change the name when they bumped the AP2 version up from 2.0 to 2.2L. If Honda wasn't lame they could've easily been selling a new S1500 and S2000 and probably selling rather well by using their current 1.5 turbo and 2.0 turbo. They'd have two trims, one with more power than a Miata and one with more power than an 86, and turbocharged which is something the market enjoys in a sports car. The car wouldn't have been a somewhat high-end sports car like the S2000 was but that's not the position of either the Miata or 86. They haven't even bothered with an Accord Type R which absolutely would sell as fast as they could make them.

An S Type R is something everyone has always wanted them to do. Again, Honda won't take risks. That said, instead of building anything anybody actually wants, they'd rather just get rid of all ICE engines and go EV which is obviously a ridiculous idea.

I don't think Honda will act on any of these enthusiast ideas before they start to struggle with drivetrain transition in the next decade or two. They can't just live on the CTR forever because literally everything else they make is an appliance.

 

[MIE1992]

They can't just live on the CTR forever because literally everything else they make is an appliance.

They really can't, and I hope that Honda stays in Super GT500, either by eventually using an updated Civic Type R-GT based on whatever the next Civic is like, or by making a new NSX that's better-received than the 2nd-gen model.

 

[Keef]

They really can't, and I hope that Honda stays in Super GT500, either by eventually using an updated Civic Type R-GT based on whatever the next Civic is like, or by making a new NSX that's better-received than the 2nd-gen model.

I think Honda is in much too tight a spot right now to consider a new NSX at all. I bet we won't see one hit the road for at least a decade. These are some of the many reasons they're so interested in this merger. Speaking of NSX, while Nissan has constantly updated the GT-R and it's still an impressive car today, the NSX hasn't been talked about in years and was basically forgotten about. They're so rare and such a market flop that any time I see one I forget that it's not new, and in fact I first saw a development mule at TRC in 2014, and the car began production in 2015, nine years ago. Those bright orange Acura Type S models that seem so new, that started with the NSX three years ago already but it was canceled after that.

I think Kreifels is right, Honda Autos is in trouble.