No More Gothic Kittens

  • Thread starter BayConRong
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I don't disagree with your point on the whole, I just found this statement interesting. 'If animals cannot understand the implications, responsibilities and importance of liberty they don't warrant the right to liberty'

I take it this is not the only qualifying sentiment to who is and isn't entitled to liberty because under the same don't mentally undeveloped people fall exactly under the same bracket? Imay have misunderstood what you meant by this though.

As a society, we take away some of the rights of the mentally disabled - especially when they have shown that they can't understand the implications, responsibilities, and importance of their rights and the rights of others. This is the case now, and it should be.

An extreme example of this is Terri Schaivo.
 
If a cat has a right to liberty then it cannot be owned. You cannot put a collar on it, you can't put a leash on it, and you can't keep it in your house without expressed consent. Since the cat can't give it's consent - that doesn't even make sense. The reason we have a right to liberty is because we cannot be considered objectively superior to others - which means we cannot use force against them justifiably (unless in defense of our rights). On the otherhand, humans can be considered objectively superior to cats. We're superior in our ability to understand the implications, responsibilities, and importance of liberty. Cats are not able to do these things, and as such, they do not warrant a right to liberty.

I would argue that cats and humans are both similarly capable of understanding the implications, responsibilities, and importance of not being tortured.

It can sure scratch the hell out of your hand though. And I found that if a cat doesn't want to be stuck somewhere that kitty ain't going to stay there. Same way the other way around. My uncle has a cat. He let the cat outside to explore and it didn't come home for 3 days. The next time we saw that cat it ran inside as fast as it could and refuses to leave the house.
 
Okay, just so you all know who you’re talking to…

As Touring Mars alluded to, I’m an animal lover. In fact, that’s an understatement. I grew up in the sticks. My Facebook picture is of me feeding a wild rabbit. In iPhoto, I have nearly 300 pictures that I’ve taken of animals, mostly the ones around my house. I’ve had four rats as pets – animals that most people (including I’m sure some of you) would be just fine killing. I’ve helped nurse a wild fox back to health.I once helped my dad build a wooden house for a pigeon that had gotten lost and was staying around our place. I’ve seen at least six generations of baby raccoons at my doorstep (quite literally at my doorstep), and many dozens of foxes. I’ve gone outside in 20°F weather with pouring rain and horrible mud just to feed the quail. And those are just higher-order animals – my roommates laugh all the time at the fact that I will not kill a spider or a moth (I pick them up, and put them outside). Even bees and wasps I’d rather catch in a jar and place outside rather than kill. (How many of you do that?) Aside from Der Alta, I would bet serious money that my track record of animal kindness far outstrips the vast vast majority of everybody here.

[size=+2]However,[/size]

None of that has anything to do with legislation – the second you let emotions dictate legislation, you’re :censored:ed. Every response to my post was emotional rather than rational.

Yes, people who willingly torture animals should be called all sorts of horrible things, and should be shunned by society, and should be considered psychotic and full of evil and hatred and you should be hoping that they choke on their own vomit. But that has nothing to do with whether it should be illegal – legality has nothing to do with emotion and anecdotes and has everything to do with inherent rights, and I’ve literally spent upwards of six hours discussing just this one subject (animal torture) with other people, because inherent rights is a tricky subject.

BTW, something that concerns me is that some of you aimed fairly vitriolic comments at me for saying that, yet you most likely have never thought about the genital mutilation and torture of helpless human babies that happens in this country and around the world. Misplaced compassion methinks.
 
because inherent rights is a tricky subject.

Inherent? Rights are assigned and upheld by people. I suggest that animals should have minimal rights (to not be tortured, say) recognized by us, the people, and upheld accordingly.
 
Inherent? Rights are assigned and upheld by people. I suggest that animals should have minimal rights (to not be tortured, say) recognized by us, the people, and upheld accordingly.

Yes, rights are inherent. They are assigned by reason - which exists independently of people.
 
While I don't care to answer Famine's meta-ethical question, "What is crime" I will state that crime is a negative argument and therefor not worthy of scientific pursuit (pursuit of truth) in the eyes of our scientific community.

Or did I get that "wrong?"
 
BTW, something that concerns me is that some of you aimed fairly vitriolic comments at me for saying that, yet you most likely have never thought about the genital mutilation and torture of helpless human babies that happens in this country and around the world. Misplaced compassion methinks.

I was going to mention it... but thought twice about it... and now I'm glad you brought it up.

Most of us don't think that it's a crime to perform said genital mutilation because most of us have gone through it, without choice.

It's culturally acceptable to us that it is done. Yet female genital mutilation (oh, all right, let's call it by its kosher name... circumcision) is frowned upon. Simply because one form of mutilation is more familiar than the other. (though female circumcision is inherently more dangerous and has no benefits, compared to male circumcision).

Now, somebody brought up some people having their 5-year old's tongue pierced. How is that categorically worse than having a baby's ears pierced?

And nobody has demonstrated how piercing a cat is more ethically reprehensible than tagging cattle... or livestock nose-rings... both of which are piercings...

800px-XN_Bos_taurus_00.jpg


Now, don't get me wrong... I hate piercings. I absolutely hate them. Ick. I even shudder at the though of ear piercings. We've decided at home that our daughter will be the one to decide whether she wants her ears (or anything else) pierced, once she's old enough to decide for herself.

But I still don't see anything immoral about piercing, in our current society, in any way. Sure, it's involuntary for the animal, and it's probably the animal's right to refuse it... but it's also probably their right to decide if they want to die in childbirth, have a zillion babies, drown themselves in a sewer or take the high road and skeedaddle. It's not nice to pierce the animals, but illegal? Hardly. Prosecuting a person for performing piercing per se, as long as they use sterile instruments and do not cause the animals much pain, probably will not prosper in court, not if the defendant has a halfway decent lawyer.
 
Most of us don't think that it's a crime to perform said genital mutilation because most of us have gone through it, without choice.

It's culturally acceptable to us that it is done. Yet female genital mutilation (oh, all right, let's call it by its kosher name... circumcision) is frowned upon. Simply because one form of mutilation is more familiar than the other. (though female circumcision is inherently more dangerous and has no benefits, compared to male circumcision).
I personally think that circumcision that is not carried out under medical conditions carries a danger that is unacceptable. I also think that the difference between circumcision and sterilisation is huge, haveing had a vasectomy myself I can assure you that no visable 'mutilation exists at all.


Now, somebody brought up some people having their 5-year old's tongue pierced. How is that categorically worse than having a baby's ears pierced?
I have an issue with both, believeing that this kind of cosmetic change is a choice that should be made by the person involved when they are able to make that choice.

However I do and have had piercings and the tongue is a lot more prone to infection and associated injury (in particular chipping of teeth) than the ear (or for that matter nose) is. The blood flow and number of nerve endings differs massively between the two as well, so it terms of pain when done and healing time involved they are significantly different.



And nobody has demonstrated how piercing a cat is more ethically reprehensible than tagging cattle... or livestock nose-rings... both of which are piercings...

800px-XN_Bos_taurus_00.jpg


Now, don't get me wrong... I hate piercings. I absolutely hate them. Ick. I even shudder at the though of ear piercings. We've decided at home that our daughter will be the one to decide whether she wants her ears (or anything else) pierced, once she's old enough to decide for herself.

But I still don't see anything immoral about piercing, in our current society, in any way. Sure, it's involuntary for the animal, and it's probably the animal's right to refuse it... but it's also probably their right to decide if they want to die in childbirth, have a zillion babies, drown themselves in a sewer or take the high road and skeedaddle. It's not nice to pierce the animals, but illegal? Hardly. Prosecuting a person for performing piercing per se, as long as they use sterile instruments and do not cause the animals much pain, probably will not prosper in court, not if the defendant has a halfway decent lawyer.
As someone who grew up in the country and around farms I would argue very strongly that a big difference exists between taging of cattle and piercing a cat.

First lets look at ear tags, these are not simply cosmetic, and form a vital part of identifying and tracking a particular animal. In this day and age of increased awareness of the importance of disease control and management the ability to track and ID a particular animal is vital. A similar function is carried out on domestic pets, microchipping and is in reality no more or less invasive or painful than tagging, and many farms now use it in place of tagging,

Now nose rings, firstly the widespread use of fixed nose rings in cattle is pretty much past now, most rings (including the one you pictured which is a weaning ring) are temporary and 'clip' in place rather than being actually pierced. This is done to remove the risk of infection and the risk of the ring getting snagged and tearing the animals nose open.


Which leads me onto the big difference between a cat and a cow (and I did mention this earlier), cows are inherently docile animals with no ability to climb or a general desire to leap about, as such they run a low risk of catching a ring on items and ripping them out (and even given this low risk farmers have still moved to clip on rings to remove even that slim chance). Nor is a cow able to try and pull a ring out using its limbs.

Cats are natural climbers and travel by leaping from place to place, massively increasing the risk of catching and tearing a piercing, they are also more than physically able to reach any part of the body with mouth/paws and so will try and remove items of this nature.

Nose rings also serve a function in cattle, for weaning, control and harnessing of animals; I would love to know what purpose these piercings in cats serve (other than satisfying the vanity of the owners - which for me is not a valid one). They are also vital in the control of bulls, animals that are naturally aggresive and more than capable of killing a person, they last time I checked even the most nasty of tom-cats doesn't pose much of a risk to life and limbs.

Pig rings have also been mentioned I believe and these once again are temporary fittings (clips) rather than true piercings and again serve a purpose, that of controlling digging by the snout (which a pig will do). The surpring thing here Niky is that the Wiki page that picture comes from (and the tensioing screw on that plastic weaning ring is quite clearly visable - showing that it is not pierced) covers this in accurate and clear terms), yet you seem to have just grabed a nasty looking picture and used it to support your view without looking into the facts behind it.

Its also worth mentioning that in most countries the fitment of a fixed nose ring to cattle must be carried out by a vet, which was (as far as I am aware) certainly not the case for these cats.


Piercing a cat serves no purpose at all, carrys a high risk of infection and associated injury and I believe (in this case) was not carried out under the control of a vet. None of these applies to taging or rings in cattle (particulalry if the rings are clips).

Sorry but the valid use in cattle or livestock of any type does not validate piercing in cats.


Regards

Scaff
 
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It's culturally acceptable to us that it is done. Yet female genital mutilation (oh, all right, let's call it by its kosher name... circumcision) is frowned upon. Simply because one form of mutilation is more familiar than the other. (though female circumcision is inherently more dangerous and has no benefits, compared to male circumcision).

This part "Simply because one form of mutilation is more familiar than the other" is contradicted by this part "though female circumcision is inherently more dangerous and has no benefits, compared to male circumcision".

Successful male circumcision has nothing but benefits. Successful female circumcision has nothing but drawbacks. The reason male circumcision is considered acceptable and female circumcision is considered mutilation is the same reason that chopping off an arm when it is unusable is acceptable and chopping off an arm when it is working is considered mutilation. One is depriving the person the benefits of a fully functioning part of their body, the other is cutting away useless, lifeless flesh that does nothing but get in the way.

I suppose you think tonsillectomies and appendicitises are mutilation too. How about things like artificial joints? Root canals? Crowns? Lasik? Are these mutilation?

Sorry but the valid use in cattle or livestock of any type does not validate piercing in cats.

What validates it is that neither animals has extensive rights, and neither practice constitutes torture.
 
What validates it is that neither animals has extensive rights, and neither practice constitutes torture.

While I agree that animals do not have extensive rights I personaly believe that they have rights that extend beyond just a right not to be tortured (but would of course depend on how torture itself is defined). A right to not be subject to un-un-necessary suffering should be given as well, in this regard piercing cats (for the reasons I have given) should not be done.


Regards

Scaff
 
While I agree that animals do not have extensive rights I personaly believe that they have rights that extend beyond just a right not to be tortured (but would of course depend on how torture itself is defined). A right to not be subject to un-un-necessary suffering should be given as well, in this regard piercing cats (for the reasons I have given) should not be done.

That's a little too vague and broad for me. "Unnecessary suffering" could be refusing to throw the ball when your dog wants to chase it, or it could be not paying for anesthetic before applying stitches. I think the real issue is that you consider piercings to be (light) torture.

Unfortunately I think torture is defined by a degree of pain and the reason for it - which requires understanding how much pain the cat is suffering. But this is the muddy water you wade into when you try to protect rights that some animals may be entitled to. You have to know the animal's brain well enough to determine that it has these rights.
 
That's a little too vague and broad for me. "Unnecessary suffering" could be refusing to throw the ball when your dog wants to chase it, or it could be not paying for anesthetic before applying stitches. I think the real issue is that you consider piercings to be (light) torture.

Unfortunately I think torture is defined by a degree of pain and the reason for it - which requires understanding how much pain the cat is suffering. But this is the muddy water you wade into when you try to protect rights that some animals may be entitled to. You have to know the animal's brain well enough to determine that it has these rights.

I fully understand that suffering is hard to define (but the same could be applied to what contitues torture - but thats a sepertae discussion in its own right).

My view is actually less on the pain side of things, as most animals have a very different pain threshold that humans, I've tagged cattle in my youth and can't recall a single one even registering what was happening.

I'm looking more at the injury that could result from this, if piercing a cat held no further risk to its well-being I would have no issues with it at all (I would still consider it wierd, but then I consider wearing socks and sandles wierd, wierd is fine). My single issue with piercing a cat is that unacceptable injury will almost certainly result from such a practice, and to use your own definition, that would to me consitute torture.


Regards

Scaff
 
but then I consider wearing socks and sandles wierd,

Are you sure you're British? All the Brits on Tour I see around here wear socks (usually dark blue or brown) with sandals.

As an aside, keep in mind dogs (and I believe cats as well) can withstand higher levels of pain than most humans.
 
Are you sure you're British? All the Brits on Tour I see around here wear socks (usually dark blue or brown) with sandals.
Quite sure, not all of us are sad, sock and sandal wearing tourists (no I don't even do it when I am on holiday), plenty of Brits consider it to be just as wierd as you guys do.


As an aside, keep in mind dogs (and I believe cats as well) can withstand higher levels of pain than most humans.
Quite agree and I mentioned it in my last post, humans register/react to pain much more than any other animal I have ever come across and having had my ears piereced multiple times and my nose done in my youth I can say that as a human it wasn't painful at all. Which is why my problem in this case is not with the piercing itself, but rather with the risk of associated injury from the piercing.


Regards

Scaff
 
I guess quite a topical discussion would be that of dusty the cat. Brought up on GTP here;

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=114580

If torture of an animal is considered a violation of an animals rights then what sort of sentence should this carry assuming the this is considered torture. What relevance does the teenagers age carry in this situation. I think many peoples reaction (not of GTP's) for the teenager to be brutally murdered is over the top to say the least, a criminal sentence? I haven't made my mind up, I can certainly see why torture of an animal could be considered a crime though.

[edit] sorry I missed this.

As a society, we take away some of the rights of the mentally disabled - especially when they have shown that they can't understand the implications, responsibilities, and importance of their rights and the rights of others. This is the case now, and it should be.

An extreme example of this is Terri Schaivo.

Admittedly we do remove some rights of those mentally ill which I didn't mention but these far surpass those rights of animals even if their understanding of the rights is no better.

I have to apologies for coming back to this;

On the otherhand, humans can be considered objectively superior to cats. We're superior in our ability to understand the implications, responsibilities, and importance of liberty. Cats are not able to do these things, and as such, they do not warrant a right to liberty.

We don't remove most of the rights of the mentally ill, (nor children) the right to life for example, so I struggle to see your original statement as a valid argument. if the reason cats don't have rights is because of their 'inability understand the implications, responsibilities, and importance of liberty. Cats are not able to do these things, and as such, they do not warrant a right to liberty.' Then I don't understand why the mentally ill (by this I mean severely mentally ill) have more rights than that of cats despite their complete lack of ability to understand human concepts. I can understand children in this instance are not void of rights as they have the potential to learn and understand them.

I am not trying to say cats should have equal rights to humans, in fact as selfish as this sounds I would argue it is inconvenient and not in human interest to assign animals with the same rights of humans, perhaps I consider this as a flaw in rights themselves but I don't see how your original answer justifies why animals don't have rights.
 
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