No on Prop 8

[Bones Brigade]

this is disgusting. absolutely appalling.

 

[Touring Mars]

I'm surprised, but at the same time, I cannot agree with the insinuation that this is a victory for bigotry or intolerance. I can't believe I'm agreeing with Solid Fro on this one, but I think there is a distinction to be made between people who are violently anti-homosexual and those who seek to maintain the legal meaning of the institution of marriage.

I can understand why many non-bigoted people - who are tolerant but disapproving of homosexuality for whatever reason - may have voted against same-sex marriage. Although I'd disagree with them, I don't think a Yes vote of Proposition 8 constitutes a justification for calling someone a bigot.

However, I think it is a major upset to the gay rights movement and I am saddened to see that, even in California, the majority of people are not happy with same-sex marriage... it only goes to show that gay rights have a very long way to go.

 

[FoolKiller]

Although I'd disagree with them, I don't think a Yes vote of Proposition 8 constitutes a justification for calling someone a bigot.

I will call them selfish then.

 

[Sage]

I have a friend who has the perfect Facebook status right now:

Cody is wondering why californians care more about chickens than gay people.

 

[Danoff]

I maintain that a constitutional modification should require a super-majority.

 

[YSSMAN]

I’m genuinely surprised at how the results are turning out. This is California, year 2008 AD. Seriously, WTF?

I had been under the impression that the groundswell was against Prop8, but I had been proven wrong. On a day where so much general "good" had happened, that is a massive disappointment.

From my TRS buddy Jeff Cannata:

What an amazing night. My joy and inspiration tempered by the disheartening indications of Prop 8 passing here in CA

 

[Pupik]

I maintain that a constitutional modification should require a super-majority.

It's 60% approval in Florida for an amendment to change/be added. Alas, 62% approved the addition to the state constitution. To echo Sage, pigs get a free pass (although it's not in the same league, it also does not belong in the state's constitution).

Power to the people, I guess.

 

[Danoff]

It's 60% approval in Florida for an amendment to change/be added. Alas, 62% approved the addition to the state constitution. To echo Sage, pigs get a free pass (although it's not in the same league, it also does not belong in the state's constitution).

Power to the people, I guess.

A 60% requirement in CA would have prevented Prop 8 from passing here.

 

[FoolKiller]

A 60% requirement in CA would have prevented Prop 8 from passing here.

Has it always been like that or is it something that changed over time? I could imagine California attempting to push liberal "progressive" policies in teh past changing that and now having it come back to bite them.

 

[Solid Fro]

I'm surprised, but at the same time, I cannot agree with the insinuation that this is a victory for bigotry or intolerance. I can't believe I'm agreeing with Solid Fro on this one, but I think there is a distinction to be made between people who are violently anti-homosexual and those who seek to maintain the legal meaning of the institution of marriage.

It's ok, remain calm, relax... don't tense up, and let it happen.

 

[Omnis]

A 60% requirement in CA would have prevented Prop 8 from passing here.

Wow, Cali doesn't have supermajority rules?

 

[Danoff]

Has it always been like that or is it something that changed over time? I could imagine California attempting to push liberal "progressive" policies in teh past changing that and now having it come back to bite them.

Not sure how long it's been this way. I haven't been in CA for long.

Wow, Cali doesn't have supermajority rules?

We just passed a state constitutional amendment with 52.4% of the vote.

 

[YSSMAN]

Wow, Cali doesn't have supermajority rules?

I think Michigan is the same way with their amendment laws... I cannot remember for certain (state politics class was too long ago).

 

[Solid Fro]

Stop the hate? Really... really? The only hate is from those who were against Prop 8.



Liberals have hijacked the gay community.

 

[TheCracker]

Is Phyllis Burgess a friend of Fred Phelps? She certainly has the same lack insensitivity.

 

[Prosthetic]

Liberals have hijacked the gay community.

How so?

 

[Tornado]

I think I see where he is coming from (something along the lines of liberals using Prop 8 to bash the Right rather than any real care for the rights of homosexuals).

 

[Danoff]

Stop the hate? Really... really? The only hate is from those who were against Prop 8.

I don't see that at all. Simply voting for Prop 8 is an act of discrimination.

Liberals have hijacked the gay community.

The gay community is only supported by the left, so that's naturally where they go.

 

[TheCracker]

Do you not have any right-wing gays?

 

[Danoff]

Do you not have any right-wing gays?

Not really. The right wing is heavily mixed with religion. And religion and homosexuality rarely mix.

 

[FoolKiller]

Log Cabin Republicans.

 

[TheCracker]

Not really. The right wing is heavily mixed with religion. And religion and homosexuality rarely mix.

Really? - i thought it was compulsory for Catholic priests.

 

[Touring Mars]

Liberals have hijacked the gay community.

The gay community is fairly liberal already, methinks...

Simply voting for Prop 8 is an act of discrimination.

That said, why is it that gay marriage should be decided by a public vote in the first place? If it is up for a referendum, you can't blame people for voting for what they believe to be best. So long as such fundamental issues such as gay marriage can be allowed or disallowed by the whim of a public vote, it will be up to the opponents of the Proposition to convince people that gay marriage is not a bad thing. I personally don't think it should be a matter for public vote, though - just as other basic rights should not be denied to people simply because 2% more of the public find it disagreeable...

 

[Danoff]

That said, why is it that gay marriage should be decided by a public vote in the first place? If it is up for a referendum, you can't blame people for voting for what they believe to be best. So long as such fundamental issues such as gay marriage can be allowed or disallowed by the whim of a public vote, it will be up to the opponents of the Proposition to convince people that gay marriage is not a bad thing. I personally don't think it should be a matter for public vote, though - just as other basic rights should not be denied to people simply because 2% more of the public find it disagreeable...

Heh, you only need to look at my sig to see that I agree with this. However...

If it is up for a referendum, you can't blame people for voting for what they believe to be best.

I kinda can, because people should realize that they're voting on rights, not about which they prefer. It's a lot to ask, and we shouldn't be asking it, but since it's the case - people should hold such a restriction to a higher standard.

Even when voting on a simple regulation or even a spending bill, I expect people to try to take a step back and see past their own preferences. Democracy requires people to make decisions that affect everyone, so I expect them to keep that in mind.

Edit: This discussion is further complicated by the fact that I don't believe state recognition of marriage is either a right or a proper function of government.

 

[Solid Fro]

The gay community is fairly liberal already, methinks...

My gay friends would have not tolerated what happened in the video. They may be left of me, but they wouldn't shout down a woman just because they disagree with her.

I think I see where he is coming from (something along the lines of liberals using Prop 8 to bash the Right rather than any real care for the rights of homosexuals).

👍

 

[YSSMAN]

But here is the problem, this is outright discrimination of people who otherwise have no reason to have their rights taken away. I'm still mad as hell over what happened and I don't even live in California, its absolutely outrageous. Its terrible that we can be "done" protesting for women's rights, for civil rights (minorities), and yet we cannot stand together and do something right for people who have a different sexual orientation?

Hell, they even banned Homosexuals from adopting children in Arkansas last week.

Its all very frustrating, and at least in my opinion, concerning. I do hope there is some kind of way to get around this, I'm uncertain of what the laws are in California, however...

 

[Prosthetic]

The one in California is going to be overturned. The day after it past there was like 6 lawsuits against it for discrimination. Gays will be able to marry, happened before in the pass.

 

[Famine]

Not really. The right wing is heavily mixed with religion. And religion and homosexuality rarely mix.

Except in Catholicism...

 

[Bram Turismo]

I kinda can, because people should realize that they're voting on rights, not about which they prefer. It's a lot to ask, and we shouldn't be asking it, but since it's the case - people should hold such a restriction to a higher standard.

Even when voting on a simple regulation or even a spending bill, I expect people to try to take a step back and see past their own preferences. Democracy requires people to make decisions that affect everyone, so I expect them to keep that in mind.

Exactly.

I do also tend to boo some things proposed by the government here, but sometimes one has to stand away from personal opinion, and think about what this means to the people, and what it'll bring. Personally, I'm still surprised gay marriage is illegal in most (or some) states in America. People, whether straight, gay or both should have the freedom married people have.

 

[mindwise]

Matt says it best
(both on prop 8 and the adoption issue)

On second thought, perhaps Jeff covers the 'issue' of same sex marriage even better