No_OBsT33R's LSD Calc UPDATED Version 1.1

[No_OBsT33R]

The idea is correct but reversed, it acts locked until it slips. It doesn't slip until it locks.

 

[Rotary Junkie]

The idea is correct but reversed, it acts locked until it slips. It doesn't slip until it locks.

It's as close to open as it can get (always some preload) when at neutral throttle then under accel (and decel in case of 2-way) it forces the clutches together harder making it attempt to lock... Not "locked" until there's a wheel speed difference.

 

[freshseth83]

The idea is correct but reversed, it acts locked until it slips. It doesn't slip until it locks.

For some reason I have trouble viewing your 'calculator' or whatever it is you call it. I don't know what to open the file with! Could you help my dumbass?

 

[Rotary Junkie]

For some reason I have trouble viewing your 'calculator' or whatever it is you call it. I don't know what to open the file with! Could you help my dumbass?

Microsoft Excel or Open Office Calc.

 

[freshseth83]

I tried excel- gave me some weird letters and symbols- donno about the calculator thing- i'll try that

 

[No_OBsT33R]

It's as close to open as it can get (always some preload) when at neutral throttle then under accel (and decel in case of 2-way) it forces the clutches together harder making it attempt to lock... Not "locked" until there's a wheel speed difference.

You have it reversed, and the LSD doesn't know the difference between WOT and half throttle. All it sees is the power coming in.

You are wrong, it is locked until it slips, you literally have it correct but reversed.

"It's as close to open as it can get (always some preload)"

Wrong, it's always locked until a difference in wheel speed causes it to slip. Do you realize that an LSD would have a dramatically short life if it were always slipping like that.

"when at neutral throttle then under accel (and decel in case of 2-way) it forces the clutches together harder making it attempt to lock... "

Wrong, there is no effect at all until a difference in wheel speed, until then it remains locked, only when a difference in wheel speed is detected will the LSD slip, if your accelerating and both wheels are going the same speed the LSD acts locked, when it slips this is a result of the clutches being over powered by the increased force working on them, the increased difference does not force the clutches together harder, it forces them to slip more. The exact opposite.

"Not "locked" until there's a wheel speed difference."

Wrong, it doesn't slip until a wheel speed difference is detected. Again you have it reversed.


Right idea, just backwards....


@ Fresh

It's an excel file, use excel or an excel viewer.

 

[Rotary Junkie]

"It's as close to open as it can get (always some preload)"

Wrong, it's always locked until a difference in wheel speed causes it to slip. Do you realize that an LSD would have a dramatically short life if it were always slipping like that.

It's got pressure on the clutches (preload) but it is not "locked" or anywhere near it. If there is no wheel speed difference there is absolutely zero slip regardless of how much preload there is... Doesn't mean the clutches are trying to prevent slip as hard as they are under throttle.

"when at neutral throttle then under accel (and decel in case of 2-way) it forces the clutches together harder making it attempt to lock... "

Wrong, there is no effect at all until a difference in wheel speed, until then it remains locked, only when a difference in wheel speed is detected will the LSD slip, if your accelerating and both wheels are going the same speed the LSD acts locked, when it slips this is a result of the clutches being over powered by the increased force working on them, the increased difference does not force the clutches together harder, it forces them to slip more. The exact opposite.

Accelerative force shoves the clutches together, it does NOT matter if there is a wheel speed difference or not. More force = more bite = takes more to make them slip = closer to locked. You are entirely missing my point here.

"Not "locked" until there's a wheel speed difference."

Wrong, it doesn't slip until a wheel speed difference is detected. Again you have it reversed.

It doesn't "detect" anything. And I didn't say DERP THE CLUTCHES ARE SLIPPIN WHEN THERE'S NO WHEEL SPEED DIFFERENCE. Again, missing my point entirely.

Anyway, the function of an LSD is to attempt to prevent a wheel speed difference under certain conditions... Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[No_OBsT33R]

It's got pressure on the clutches (preload) but it is not "locked" or anywhere near it. If there is no wheel speed difference there is absolutely zero slip regardless of how much preload there is... Doesn't mean the clutches are trying to prevent slip as hard as they are under throttle.

When going straight no wheel speed difference it ACTS locked as in gives full power going in from the drive shaft.

When wheel speed becomes different enough one side to the next (for any reason) the differential allows less than full applicable power to be given (no more the the minimum to move forward in an open diff) so the turn can be made, but the acceleration forces it's settings clutches to retain more then the minimum required to accelerate (as an open diff would) so the car retains power above what it would an open diff, but doesn't overpower/over-stress the tires/suspension components like a locked diff would.

The throttle position means NOTHING other than there is a lower or greater amount of power going in from the drive shaft. Same as there is a different amount at different rpm, all it sees is how much power is going in.

Accelerative force shoves the clutches together, it does NOT matter if there is a wheel speed difference or not. More force = more bite = takes more to make them slip = closer to locked. You are entirely missing my point here.

Yes it does matter as until there is a great enough difference the int forces the clutches together clamped until there is a great enough difference to overpower the clamping force and it slips. The clamping LIMITS THE SLIPPING.

I think your missing the point... Or can you calculate what the diff is doing....

It doesn't "detect" anything. And I didn't say DERP THE CLUTCHES ARE SLIPPIN WHEN THERE'S NO WHEEL SPEED DIFFERENCE. Again, missing my point entirely.

It detects differences in wheel speed

Anyway, the function of an LSD is to attempt to prevent a wheel speed difference under certain conditions... Nothing more, nothing less.

WRONG again

The only reason a car has a differential is to allow power to be given to 2 wheels from 1 input. The wheels spinning at different speeds.

The LSD is the middle between the 2 variations of differentials, open and closed.

Closed puts all power down all the time.

It forces the slow wheel to keep up with the fast wheel.

Open diff is great and puts all power down until wheel speed difference is detected and then will give ONLY the minimum amount required to move forward.

It forces the wheel with more grip to only get as much power as the wheel with less grip can handle. When one wheel slips and or has no ability to move the car forward the side with grip gets 0 power.

The LSD is there to work like an open diff however retain more acceleration power than the minimum required to move forward.

It will fight to retain more power then the minimum required to go forward. Even when one tire slips completely and has no ability to move the car forward. As long as one of the wheels has grip it will receive power to go forward.

@ fresh it's compressed in a Rae file, use winrar to extract it.

 

[Motor City Hami]

It's got pressure on the clutches (preload) but it is not "locked" or anywhere near it. If there is no wheel speed difference there is absolutely zero slip regardless of how much preload there is... Doesn't mean the clutches are trying to prevent slip as hard as they are under throttle.



Accelerative force shoves the clutches together, it does NOT matter if there is a wheel speed difference or not. More force = more bite = takes more to make them slip = closer to locked. You are entirely missing my point here.



It doesn't "detect" anything. And I didn't say DERP THE CLUTCHES ARE SLIPPIN WHEN THERE'S NO WHEEL SPEED DIFFERENCE. Again, missing my point entirely.

Anyway, the function of an LSD is to attempt to prevent a wheel speed difference under certain conditions... Nothing more, nothing less.

+1 Rotary Junkie either has a better understanding of how clutch pack type LSDs work or is just better at explaining them than Noobsteer is. I second what Rotary has to say on the subject. Keep trying Nooby... you're still a ways off.

 

[No_OBsT33R]

+1 Rotary Junkie either has a better understanding of how clutch pack type LSDs work or is just better at explaining them than Noobsteer is. I second what Rotary has to say on the subject. Keep trying Nooby... you're still a ways off.

If you say so

Somebody show me how my calculator is wrong please.... Ohh yeah

 

[Rotary Junkie]

The only reason a car has a differential is to allow power to be given to 2 wheels from 1 input. The wheels spinning at different speeds.

The LSD is the middle between the 2 variations of differentials, open and closed.

Closed puts all power down all the time.

It forces the slow wheel to keep up with the fast wheel.

Open diff is great and puts all power down until wheel speed difference is detected and then will give ONLY the minimum amount required to move forward.

It forces the wheel with more grip to only get as much power as the wheel with less grip can handle. When one wheel slips and or has no ability to move the car forward the side with grip gets 0 power.

The LSD is there to work like an open diff however retain more acceleration power than the minimum required to move forward.

It will fight to retain more power then the minimum required to go forward. Even when one tire slips completely and has no ability to move the car forward. As long as one of the wheels has grip it will receive power to go forward.

You're right about the operation of an open diff at least...

Completely wrong about the operation of an LSD though. I've said it every way I can think to and you still don't get it.

If you say so

Somebody show me how my calculator is wrong please.... Ohh yeah

Gladly.

A bad LSD will still act exactly the same as an open diff; "power loss" from it slipping will never result in less torque to either tire than an open diff... Yep, there's friction between the clutches whenever there's a wheel speed difference and they are designed to slip... But they are not responsible for the transfer of power from the ring gear to the axle, only from axle to axle.

I still don't see a use for the calc given the "fast" settings are, according to it, an absolutely open diff or an absolutely locked diff... And somehow anything between the two results in less torque to both tires.

 

[Motor City Hami]

If you say so

Somebody show me how my calculator is wrong please.... Ohh yeah

Sure. A few questions.

What is usable power level and what is your thoery on calculating it. Is it the same for all 1,000 cars in the game.

Is this calculator intended for all drive trains or just rear wheel drive?

Please explain your thoery on power loss to both drive wheels through LSD adjustments. If initial torque is set to 5, your model indicates equal and maximum acceleration being applied to both drive wheels. When moved to 60, the model shows equal and minimum acceleration to both drive wheels. Same situation with Accel settings, but 5 is minimum acceleration and 60 is maximum. Is your model suggesting that we run 5 initial torque and 60 accel to achieve maximum acceleration off the corners? Where does the power loss go. If I am standing on the throttle pedal with a maximum available torque of 900 ft.lbs., where does that power go if I run mid range LSD settings? Does the LSD slip and rob that power?

Why are you showing inside and outside power to the wheels with equal power to the wheels. Doesn't this indicate that the car is either going in a straight line or that the LSD is fully locked? Change any setting in your model and the power to the inside and outside wheels are always equal. I thought that the entire usefulness of the LSD was to manage differing needs to the inside and outside wheels. I'm not understanding this portion of your model either.

If you want to build a LSD model, I would find it more useful to see the torque affect of the LSD on the inside and outside wheels at different places in the corner - many increments. For example, torque at: throttle lift, then straight line braking, then at turn in/trail braking, then at apex, then at first application of throttle, then half throttle, then full pedal to the floor. In a model like this, the affects of Accel and Decel could truly be seen. Your current model doesn't use Decel at all and really doesn't help to describe how to use Accel to tune out inside wheel spin or outside wheel spin. Personally, I think you still have a ton of work to do in order to make this a useful tool.

 

[No_OBsT33R]

Sure. A few questions.

What is usable power level and what is your theory on calculating it. Is it the same for all 1,000 cars in the game.

Is this calculator intended for all drive trains or just rear wheel drive?

Please explain your theory on power loss to both drive wheels through LSD adjustments. If initial torque is set to 5, your model indicates equal and maximum acceleration being applied to both drive wheels. When moved to 60, the model shows equal and minimum acceleration to both drive wheels. Same situation with Accel settings, but 5 is minimum acceleration and 60 is maximum. Is your model suggesting that we run 5 initial torque and 60 accel to achieve maximum acceleration off the corners? Where does the power loss go. If I am standing on the throttle pedal with a maximum available torque of 900 ft.lbs., where does that power go if I run mid range LSD settings? Does the LSD slip and rob that power?

Why are you showing inside and outside power to the wheels with equal power to the wheels. Doesn't this indicate that the car is either going in a straight line or that the LSD is fully locked? Change any setting in your model and the power to the inside and outside wheels are always equal. I thought that the entire usefulness of the LSD was to manage differing needs to the inside and outside wheels. I'm not understanding this portion of your model either.

If you want to build a LSD model, I would find it more useful to see the torque affect of the LSD on the inside and outside wheels at different places in the corner - many increments. For example, torque at: throttle lift, then straight line braking, then at turn in/trail braking, then at apex, then at first application of throttle, then half throttle, then full pedal to the floor. In a model like this, the affects of Accel and Decel could truly be seen. Your current model doesn't use Decel at all and really doesn't help to describe how to use Accel to tune out inside wheel spin or outside wheel spin. Personally, I think you still have a ton of work to do in order to make this a useful tool.

I'll go in depth in a sec, but power is always equal between both wheels at all times in open, closed, and LSDifferentials.


Here in a min or 2 I'll update the version that will show what a locked diff and open diff would be doing in contrast to the LSD

Im glad to see some good questions though.


How to calculate the exact limits of the tires will be car specific and work with a weight transfer calculator I already put together, and further testing of the tires compounds and their limits, I was hoping for some ideas from the peeps here but it seams when you shine true light on something it tends to piss off a few comfortable living in the dark. For the moment you need estimate the limits for in corner specific tuning. As is its good to show when your going to get that kick when the LSD activates or deactivates, also it will give you an idea of whether you should adjust your int or accel setting.

Its the beginning of something that can grow into a very useful tool, or it can go nowhere and people are no better off before, at least I'm making attempts beyond just blowing my own horn to help. LSD have been explained to DEATH nobody is better off so what good has it done??? I'm attempting to not only help tuning but help understand whats going on in the diff by SHOWING what is going on. Many critics but nobody has been able to disprove it beyond the usual babble that goes on on this site. I can do this crap on a calculator in a matter of a min, if I'm so wrong and RJ is so right, PLEASE show me where exactly my calculator is wrong, if not, with all due respect STFU......

 

[No_OBsT33R]

Here is the UPDATE

It will display what a Open and locked diff are doing in contrast to a LSD

 

[Motor City Hami]

but it seams when you shine true light on something it tends to piss off a few comfortable living in the dark.

I believe that we are allowed to challenge someone's thoeries and without being pissed off about it, right? I think what brings extra heat to you are statememts like those bolded in your above quote. You are the one who keeps consistently telling everyone that you are correct and there is no other way to look at things. I for one am not angry with you. Frankly, I am beginning to find you amusing.

 

[No_OBsT33R]

I believe that we are allowed to challenge someone's thoeries and without being pissed off about it, right? I think what brings extra heat to you are statememts like those bolded in your above quote. You are the one who keeps consistently telling everyone that you are correct and there is no other way to look at things. I for one am not angry with you. Frankly, I am beginning to find you amusing.

Whatever, truth stings. I believe I'm allowed to state what I think. The street is 2 ways, I'm not questioned or challenged, I'm practical attacked by people who don't fully understand (Like you, you obviously don't because you don't realize there is ALWAYS equal power given to both wheels, yet your making statements about who is right and wrong? STFU and listen if you don't know yourself, your in no position to weigh judgment), I explained It was a first release and wait for the update as it would provide more info, but nooooooooooo. What have you done to help besides copy past a bunch of people repeating the in game text in their own words into a thread? We all have the game and are very capable of clicking on the explanation in the game.

Look I'm done, if you guys cant figure out a way to use it, that's too bad. Nobody will force you too, its all good. Consider it a final release...

This is not worth it to me, I gain NOTHING helping people out and putting my time into it, so F-it, Ill keep my stuff to myself 👍👍👍 AWESOME FORUM!!!!!!

As far as Im concerned this thread is dead....

 

[Motor City Hami]

Whatever, truth stings.
people who don't fully understand
STFU and listen if you don't know yourself,
Look I'm done....

Again with the grand standing, Mr. Know-it-all. And I think I have seen you post that you're done in about 5 other threads too. You asked for real questions. Both Rotary and I asked some valid questions, yet you chose not to answer. I even laid out a model that I would be interested in using, if made.

 

[EivlEvo]

What I don't really get is how people on this forum can constantly just behave this way? I'm fairly confident that Noobsteer has gotten **** in almost every thread he's started.

Certainly he's trying to help out. Is he wrong? Possibly, I'm not really well read in differentials at all. But why can't there ever be a discussion without people being snarky? Oh right. GTP.

That said. Its certainly difficult to explain things on the internet and convey attitudes/feelings properly. One person says something and it gets taken in a manner that it shouldn't have been.

Noobsteer... I think there are/were a couple of people in this thread that genuinely want to help, and there are a number of others who want to argue. Again, I won't speak to say who's right or wrong because I just don't know, but perhaps some empathy for all sides is the best bet here?

 

[EivlEvo]

Again with the grand standing, Mr. Know-it-all. And I think I have seen you post that you're done in about 5 other threads too. You asked for real questions. Both Rotary and I asked some valid questions, yet you chose not to answer. I even laid out a model that I would be interested in using, if made.

Again with the grandstanding? What exactly are you doing? Almost all of your posts are just calling this dude out about something that he said was his first release and wanted feedback on (not to mention he made it in an attempt to be helpful). You aren't giving feedback, you're just saying he's wrong. And, he may be.

But lets actually look for some constructive criticism instead of just going around with backhanded compliments...

I think everyone needs to realize they're bitching about LSD's and just relax a little.

 

[Motor City Hami]

I'm relaxed.

Just asking questions and don't really like his vibe when he calls everyone stupid who doesn't agree with or understand his thoeries. The guy brings it upon himself.

 

[No_OBsT33R]

I'm relaxed.

Just asking questions and don't really like his vibe when he calls everyone stupid who doesn't agree with or understand his thoeries. The guy brings it upon himself.

I have made digz, I have the stones to admit it, but in response to them . I wouldn't have made any, had I not been receiving them (everywhere I go). I'm told I'm wrong and etc but have yet to be proven so ("just asking questions"? you play the victim real well, don't you ). Don't tell me I'm flat out wrong if you don't agree with my calculations, but can't show me where I'm wrong. I put out a calc that works, if I'm so wrong, show me where I'm wrong, otherwise it's just a bunch of blah blah blah. Y'all yap a bunch, but I still haven't seen anything that contradicts my calcs results. Until then, NEXT!

 

[Adrenaline]

For the lulz...

it acts locked until it slips. It doesn't slip until it locks.

You do realize that's a paradox right?
It won't lock until it slips, but it won't slip until it's locked?
Then neither would ever happen.

Wrong, it's always locked until a difference in wheel speed causes it to slip.

There is no such thing, as a difference in wheel speed, if they are locked. If there is a difference in wheel speed, it's not locked.

I'll go in depth in a sec, but power is always equal between both wheels at all times in open, closed, and LSDifferentials.

Either you don't understand the laws of physics, or you don't know what wheels are. To be honest, at this point, I'm starting to believe it's the latter of the two.

If anyone can explain how a car with:
The same tires
The same brakes
The same asphalt beneath said tires
and
The same power being applied to each wheel

Can do a brake stand and have only a single tire spin...
Then by all means, please speak up now. You can call Mr Newton himself and tell him what a joke he is.

It is physically, logically and mathematically impossible, for both tires to have the same force acting against them with the same power being applied to them, and end in 2 different results.

 

[No_OBsT33R]

For the lulz...

You do realize that's a paradox right?
It won't lock until it slips, but it won't slip until it's locked?
Then neither would ever happen.

There is no such thing, as a difference in wheel speed, if they are locked. If there is a difference in wheel speed, it's not locked.

Either you don't understand the laws of physics, or you don't know what wheels are. To be honest, at this point, I'm starting to believe it's the latter of the two.

Acts locked as the same amount of power is given as would be given had it been locked. Sorry didn't know I had to be so specific, I thought you at least could of figured that out.

It ACTS locked until it slips

It DOESN'T slip until it locks

I've repeated myself so many times....

Its one or the other, not both at the same time, comprehension issues?

If anyone can explain how a car with:
The same tires
The same brakes
The same asphalt beneath said tires
and
The same power being applied to each wheel

Can do a brake stand and have only a single tire spin...
Then by all means, please speak up now. You can call Mr Newton himself and tell him what a joke he is.

It is physically, logically and mathematically impossible, for both tires to have the same force acting against them with the same power being applied to them, and end in 2 different results.

Yeah same power being applied, who the hell said they had the same forces acting on them? I think I've been saying (over and over) they are following different paths, the inside shorter than the outside, it should go without saying that there are different forces on each side.

Same power, different forces acting on the wheels none the less.

o_O wait, I said I'm done.... I gotta stop giving in.

 

[PiRacingChamp]

I'd like to see what all the chest-beating is about, but like "Fresh', when I open the file, I just see an endless string of numbers and symbols. Could someone clarify?

 

[xx_kasino_xx]

Dude, it's a game.. Chill.

 

[No_OBsT33R]

I'd like to see what all the chest-beating is about, but like "Fresh', when I open the file, I just see an endless string of numbers and symbols. Could someone clarify?

It's compressed into a Rar file, first thing is to decompress it with winrar.

I'm not sure if that's your problem, other then that it's a Excel 2007 spreadsheet.

 

[kilttraeger]

It's compressed into a Rar file, first thing is to decompress it with winrar.

I'm not sure if that's your problem, other then that it's a Excel 2007 spreadsheet.

No_OBsT33R - I hope that's ok with you; I converted it into Excel '97 format and zipped it.

 

[No_OBsT33R]

No_OBsT33R - I hope that's ok with you; I converted it into Excel '97 format and zipped it.

No problem at all. So that was the issue? I think I can save in Excel 97 format, seems a bit outdated is that a more compatible format? I'm new at Excel and I'm learning it as I go

 

[Adrenaline]

Either you don't understand the laws of physics, or you don't know what wheels are. To be honest, at this point, I'm starting to believe it's the latter of the two.

If anyone can explain how a car with:
The same tires
The same brakes
The same asphalt beneath said tires
and
The same power being applied to each wheel

Can do a brake stand and have only a single tire spin...
Then by all means, please speak up now. You can call Mr Newton himself and tell him what a joke he is.

It is physically, logically and mathematically impossible, for both tires to have the same force acting against them with the same power being applied to them, and end in 2 different results.

Yeah same power being applied, who the hell said they had the same forces acting on them? I think I've been saying (over and over) they are following different paths, the inside shorter than the outside, it should go without saying that there are different forces on each side.

Learn to read, it's a BRAKE STAND.
There are no different paths, no shorter or longer, no different forces.
A Dead stop, 1 foot on the brake, 1 foot on the gas.
1 tire spins, the other doesn't.
Explain how that is possible if they both have the same power applied.

 

[No_OBsT33R]

Learn to read, it's a BRAKE STAND.
There are no different paths, no shorter or longer, no different forces.
A Dead stop, 1 foot on the brake, 1 foot on the gas.
1 tire spins, the other doesn't.
Explain how that is possible if they both have the same power applied.

You tell me to learn to read, is there something wrong with you? Did God or whoever you may pray to if you even pray to somebody, rip you off when you were created leaving you "short" changed? It's hard to fathom the abuse you must go through in reality for you to have this overpowering urge to be an Asshole online

Anyways, to answer your stupid question (I'm having a hard time reading what I'm writing so I don't know what I'm saying) I meant incredibly intelligent question asshole.

If your talking about a burn out, that sounds like an open diff, and a rear drum brake. The front locking up, the rear overpowering the rear brakes.

A LSD will make en both spin and an open diff will spin the he'll out of the slipping wheel doing nothing with the wheel with grip.

What's your point BTW? Why do I need to explain that?